First the Coho, now Apache and Gila

More outrageous manipulations to ignore science and
gut the Endangered Species Act.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/na...4species.html?

I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote

I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.





The Democratic Party called me last night asking for more money and I found
myself saying first, "I don't have any, my kid is going to college."

Pressed further I was amazed to find myself saying, "Well
it's more than just not having any. I'm tired of bitching as the major
action of the Party. Bush is THE worst president of my lifetime, we all
know that, even most Republicans know it. But the Democrats fail to see
that "anti-Bush" is not the leadership that will lead us out of the abyss.
This country needs positive leaders heading towards positive goals. Show
me a Democratic Party that really stands up and says 'This is what we stand
for' and one that works towards those goals instead of one that spends 99%
of it's resources on bitching and I'll find some money."

I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

snip
I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

Dream on. The American electorate, like any other, gets the
leaders it deserves. The average American voter is dumber than
a box of rocks and wouldn't know a good leader if one bit him
on the tit. Yeah, voting for the lesser of two evils is still
voting for evil but for the sake of your great-grandchildren
and theirs, you'd better hold your nose and vote these thugs
out before it's too late.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Larry L wrote:

The Democratic Party called me last night asking for more money and I found
myself saying first, "I don't have any, my kid is going to college."

Pressed further I was amazed to find myself saying, "Well
it's more than just not having any. I'm tired of bitching as the major
action of the Party. Bush is THE worst president of my lifetime, we all
know that, even most Republicans know it. But the Democrats fail to see
that "anti-Bush" is not the leadership that will lead us out of the abyss.
This country needs positive leaders heading towards positive goals. Show
me a Democratic Party that really stands up and says 'This is what we stand
for' and one that works towards those goals instead of one that spends 99%
of it's resources on bitching and I'll find some money."

I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

That's a load of crap, Larry. Republicans control the Presidency, both
houses of Congress, and increasingly the courts. The Democrats can't
even get a hearing for their agenda. That doesn't mean they don't have
one. When it comes to environmental issues, there is absolutely no
question that the Democrats have more responsible positions, because the
environmental "movement" is part of their constituency.

What is frustrating and peculiar is that many (possibly most) fishing
and hunting sportsmen support the Republicans, against their self
interest. That might be changing, however. For example, the new
Democratic governor of Montana, Brian Schweitzer, is effectively
courting sportsmen.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

In article ,
rw wrote:

Larry L wrote:

The Democratic Party called me last night asking for more money and I found
myself saying first, "I don't have any, my kid is going to college."

Pressed further I was amazed to find myself saying, "Well
it's more than just not having any. I'm tired of bitching as the major
action of the Party. Bush is THE worst president of my lifetime, we all
know that, even most Republicans know it. But the Democrats fail to see
that "anti-Bush" is not the leadership that will lead us out of the abyss.
This country needs positive leaders heading towards positive goals. Show
me a Democratic Party that really stands up and says 'This is what we stand
for' and one that works towards those goals instead of one that spends 99%
of it's resources on bitching and I'll find some money."

I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

That's a load of crap, Larry. Republicans control the Presidency, both
houses of Congress, and increasingly the courts. The Democrats can't
even get a hearing for their agenda. That doesn't mean they don't have
one. When it comes to environmental issues, there is absolutely no
question that the Democrats have more responsible positions, because the
environmental "movement" is part of their constituency.

What is frustrating and peculiar is that many (possibly most) fishing
and hunting sportsmen support the Republicans, against their self
interest. That might be changing, however. For example, the new
Democratic governor of Montana, Brian Schweitzer, is effectively
courting sportsmen.

Oooohhhh....can I have some of those magic mushrooms?

--
"What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it
stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is
static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships
ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought
to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet,
and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner
James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_

In article ,
Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

snip
I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

Dream on. The American electorate, like any other, gets the
leaders it deserves. The average American voter is dumber than
a box of rocks and wouldn't know a good leader if one bit him
on the tit. Yeah, voting for the lesser of two evils is still
voting for evil but for the sake of your great-grandchildren
and theirs, you'd better hold your nose and vote these thugs
out before it's too late.

Perhaps because the Repulicans are the ones who aren't courting groups
like PETA... or the anti-gun lobby?

--
"What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it
stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is
static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships
ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought
to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet,
and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner
James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_

Jonathan Cook wrote:
Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote
I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

[ken posted a link, but I don't have his post here to cite]

dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We need
leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as bad as the
other guy.'

Ken and Larry and any others, I'd love to hear _exactly_ what you
think is wrong with the position the article is taking.

It's right there in the Subject: header. Do you really believe
that hatchery fish and wild fish should be treated exactly the
same for the purposes of the Endangered Species Act ? And if
we can grow them in the hatchery or if they exist anywhere we
don't have to protect the natural habitat of sub-species ?

I think it's
a good dose of common sense in a field of biologists run amok wanting
to declare every minute genetic difference a new species (or group,
in this case) worthy of protection (or worthy at least of exploitation
for publication and tenure :-).

I'd rather have biologists running amok than loggers, developers
and water-hungry corporate farmers. YMMV.

Where will it end? When the science
gets good enough, will we then use it to demand protection for every
individual stand of mountain aspens?

I sure as hell hope so.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Joe Ellis" wrote in message
...

Perhaps because the Repulicans are the ones who aren't courting groups
like PETA... or the anti-gun lobby?

It's as simple as that, huh?

Wolfgang
who sometimes wonders who takes upon themselves the thankless task of
reminding people as simple as that to breath from time to time.....and why.

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

snip
I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We
need leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as
bad as the other guy.'

Dream on. The American electorate, like any other, gets the
leaders it deserves. The average American voter is dumber than
a box of rocks and wouldn't know a good leader if one bit him
on the tit. Yeah, voting for the lesser of two evils is still
voting for evil but for the sake of your great-grandchildren
and theirs, you'd better hold your nose and vote these thugs
out before it's too late.

I think your statement speaks to Larry's argument. You say "vote these
thugs out" without Dems offering a good alternative to "vote IN". The
last election proved ABB is a bad plan for winning elections.

http://css.sbcma.com/timj/pics/kerry_notbush.jpg ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Tim J. wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
I cannot for the life of me ever figure out why so
many folks who claim to be concerned with protecting
our outdoor heritage can vote Republican.

snip
I truly believe that most people, regardless of voting history, are
dissatisfied with the idiot we have and his thug buddies. But that
dissatisfaction is proven to not be enough to lead to change. We
need leaders we can actively support, not just ones that 'aren't as
bad as the other guy.'

Dream on. The American electorate, like any other, gets the
leaders it deserves. The average American voter is dumber than
a box of rocks and wouldn't know a good leader if one bit him
on the tit. Yeah, voting for the lesser of two evils is still
voting for evil but for the sake of your great-grandchildren
and theirs, you'd better hold your nose and vote these thugs
out before it's too late.

I think your statement speaks to Larry's argument. You say "vote these
thugs out" without Dems offering a good alternative to "vote IN".

If protecting the environment isn't a good enough reason for
an outdoorsman to "vote IN" then I am puzzled.

The
last election proved ABB is a bad plan for winning elections.

The last election proved my assertion that the average American
voter is dumber than a box of rocks. I don't know how to convince
the "dumber than a box of rocks" portion of the American electorate
to vote for their own self-interest, maybe you can shed some light
on that. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry