Foam Crayfish question

What IS ethics, if not a matter of personal preference and choice?

To answer my own question, I'd suggest that ethics is merely the
adherence to your own set of values. You may have adopted someone elses
values as your own, or you may have come up with them yourself, but if
someone wants to fish a foam crawdad full of fish slime, and does not
feel like it is 'cheating', then its not unethical in their view. If
someone else only fishes self-tied flies, harvested from their own
chickens and llamas, then buying an Adams from the shop is unethical.

But either of these viewpoints might be considered unethical from
someone elses POV.

--riverman

Bill McNulty wrote:
Looks like a knockoff of the Clouser crayfish but using foam instead of
feathers for the legs. Yuck! Check out Clousers crayfish if you want to use
these killers. They should be outlawed for smallmouth.

Actually I could just as easily make the reverse argument.
I first published this fly in a magazine back in the late
1980s. Can't remember which one: was it Marty Sherman's Flyfishing,
or TU's Trout...something like that.
I tied it with chamois then, instead of foam.
Then I added foam underneath the chamois, and then
I threw out the chamois.

Claiming ownership of a pattern seldom turns out well.
When I first published the Chamois pattern (same as this one,
with chamois swapped out for foam) I immediately got into
an acrimonious ownership dispute with a well known fly
tier who wanted to claim ownership for some obscure royalty
reasons. My photograph appeared in print before his, so
I won the ownership dispute.....no royalties though.

If the Clouser had foam pinchers, like mine, then it would be good fly.
:-)

--
/* Sandy Pittendrigh --oO0
** http://montana-riverboats.com
*/

"Bill McNulty" wrote in message
news:l2DXe.12788$zG1.12673@trnddc05...
Looks like a knockoff of the Clouser crayfish but using foam instead of
feathers for the legs. Yuck! Check out Clousers crayfish if you want to
use
these killers. They should be outlawed for smallmouth.

(snip)

Hello Bill,
The Clouser Crayfish is a good pattern. I've had good success with it when
I lived out on the right side of the US. Still carry some in my fly boxes
out here in the wilderness.
Talked to Bob Clouser yesterday about any changes he has made to the
pattern. He said no, since it seems to work well. I have used feather,
squirrel, poly, and foam pinchers. Per Bob yesterday, he likes to dead
drift the pattern. I mostly like to give a little lifting and dropping
action . . .depending on the color. All work, depending on the
presentation. Heck I used to tie the Whitlock pattern for a long time,
because it looked neat. I still have them too. ( but it is still all
presentation) Heck, a woolly bugger can do pretty well in many situations.
I think it is fun to play around with patterns, and I think that is what
Sandy is doing . . .heh . . .heh . . .but he does seem to like the foam
stuff.
DaveMohnsen
Denver

Try wrapping the shank with lead wire for weight.
Anyone who flyfishes the Penobscot in Maine better go prepared with dozens
of Clouser's crayfish in rust or olive green.Basically the only lure that
produces consistently excluding topwater.


"Dave Mohnsen" wrote in message
k.net...

"Bill McNulty" wrote in message
news:l2DXe.12788$zG1.12673@trnddc05...
Looks like a knockoff of the Clouser crayfish but using foam instead of
feathers for the legs. Yuck! Check out Clousers crayfish if you want to
use
these killers. They should be outlawed for smallmouth.

(snip)

Hello Bill,
The Clouser Crayfish is a good pattern. I've had good success with it
when
I lived out on the right side of the US. Still carry some in my fly boxes
out here in the wilderness.
Talked to Bob Clouser yesterday about any changes he has made to the
pattern. He said no, since it seems to work well. I have used feather,
squirrel, poly, and foam pinchers. Per Bob yesterday, he likes to dead
drift the pattern. I mostly like to give a little lifting and dropping
action . . .depending on the color. All work, depending on the
presentation. Heck I used to tie the Whitlock pattern for a long time,
because it looked neat. I still have them too. ( but it is still all
presentation) Heck, a woolly bugger can do pretty well in many
situations.
I think it is fun to play around with patterns, and I think that is what
Sandy is doing . . .heh . . .heh . . .but he does seem to like the foam
stuff.
DaveMohnsen
Denver

Hmmm ... it seems counter-intuitive to add weight to the pinchers.
Don't crawfish raise their claws/pinchers when in the defensive
position? Seems like you'd want the pinchers to float higher than the tail.


......I don't add weight to the pinchers.
The pinchers are made from a U-shaped piece of
foam, where the ends of the U form the pinchers.
To add weight I put one or two split shots onto
the center-bottom of the U, wrap them with spawn
sack (see the photo) and then insert the U into
a slit in the thorax. That puts the weight dead
center in the middle of the thorax. I do this
because I like to make modular flies that are
independent of the hook.

To add a hook...well, I can't remember the hook-style
name, I'll have to add photos. I use hooks with a
slightly bent shank right behind the eye, that look
a little like a plastic worm hook. Then I push the
point of the hook through the thorax from below, so
only the point of the hook emerges out the top of
the thorax. The I wrap a few whips over the body,
at the tail at the eye of the hook, to keep the body
from sliding back on the hook. You can also add
a wrap or two (and/or skip the hidden split shots)
to the shank, before threading the hook, so the lead
is exposed on the shank, on the underside of the body.
Both methods work.

This hook arrangement is similar to the way spin
fishermen "bait" a soft molded worm or lizzard on
a much larger soft-bait hook. The advantage is that
a) it works
b) the hook is well hidden in the body.

I've had some major webmaster work bogging me down,
last few evenings, else I would have added more tying
sequence photos already. This isn't an experimental
fly anymore. I've been fishing it for a long time.
Years, in fact.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 07:59:05 -0700, sandy
wrote:

http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/...nd_shrimp.html

The above is my favorite Crayfish pattern. I caught my biggest brown
in long time on this fly, on the lower Madison, late last fall.

After you catch the first fish, if you hold the fly underneath your net
and squeeze-pump the foam body of the fly a few times, as the
scent-laden fish slime runs down off the net.....then the fly suddenly
becomes noticably, substantially more effective.

Is that "unethical?" Why?


Sandy,

There appear to be only man made materials in your pattern and who
knows that the scent given off wouldn't affect trout like limburger
does most humans. Fish slime, algae etc.are natural, available
products of the stream environment and if rubbing them on a fly masks
the objectionable side effects of the materials manufacturing process,
assuming there are some, how could it be considered unethical?
By not taking steps to overcome it you are handicapping yourself...of
course that is a lot of what the game is about isn't it?
We've always assumed our flies just don't look/behave right when they
are refused. Perhaps a lot of it could be they just don't smell/taste
right.
It is an interesting question that as far as I know hasn't been
properly addressed and determining how to give your flies a neutral
stream smell, or at least not an objectionable one, despite the
materials used could be a fun experiment.

Kiyu

Originally Posted by sandy

http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/...nd_shrimp.html

The above is my favorite Crayfish pattern. I caught my biggest brown
in long time on this fly, on the lower Madison, late last fall.

After you catch the first fish, if you hold the fly underneath your net
and squeeze-pump the foam body of the fly a few times, as the
scent-laden fish slime runs down off the net.....then the fly suddenly
becomes noticably, substantially more effective.

Is that "unethical?" Why?

Am I trolling this question? Maybe. But it is an interesting
question. Ethical/not ethical depends on which and whose rules
you play by, it seems to me. Are there any moral absolutes in
the fishing business?

I've published quite a few fly tying pieces in glossy magazines over the
years. But I know I could never get anything about
scent-laden foam Crayfish flies published. Even though they're hot as
a fish catching pistol. Why not is part of my original question.
Why are the concepts of odor and wiggling, lure-like flies
so totally off limits in polite fly fishing society?

--
/* Sandy Pittendrigh --oO0
** http://montana-riverboats.com
*/

Sandy, do you have an Empty Aquarium??
This is one way of hands on research fo any Aquatic Life I've done it since I was 5 years old, Now 49. If you'll Notice, when you put certain baby fish in any Healthy Aquarium and start to watch them closely, they will start NIPPING at each other. You will think toyourself that they are mean to each other, This is their way of Pecking orders, but at the same time thier brain has a Memory that lasts throughout their life just as you and I.
Trout have an acquired taste for Fins on other fellow trout, they Nip at each other constantly as well as many many other critters on this planet do.
My point is, when you squeeze the Flavor of trout etc. onto your Flies and start getting better results youwill see that when you get the Flavor onto the fly you will possibly even catch the same size trout. Remember the have a pecking order and they Stick To It and do this by Taste or Flavor. But this is only My OPinion from My Research.
In most States it is Very Illegal to keep some species in an Aquarium, but if you do your home studies on a private level, and RELEASE them at a Healthy time, you won't even feel guilty unless you forget to feed em. and DO be careful what you give em, trust me NO corn,cheese or greasy little munchies like we eat , Only naturals bugs etc.
P.S. Keep a Cover on the Aquarium at all times ,no matter what. and By the way, YES, I think this is a VERY GOOD and ETHICAL QUESTION and hope that I'm correct on my Input becuz My 2 daughters think I'm full of B.S.

sandy says rather eloquently:

"Are there any moral absolutes in the fishing business"?

If "moral" and "business" are removed and the question re-asked,
"Are there any absolutes in fishing"? The answer to this question is YES!!

The International Game Fish Association maintains an absolute list of game fishing rules, and, IGFA intreprets its rules. I have no knowledge how the IGFA determines and intreprets its rules but IGFA rules for fly fishing can be read at:

http://www.igfa.org/BookRule2004.pdf On page 5 of 9 it states:

"No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited".

When sandy seys:

...... if you hold the fly underneath your net and squeeze-pump the foam body of the fly a few times, as the scent-laden fish slime runs down off the net (into the fly's foam body).........

I have absolutely no clue whether or not any fly prepared as sandy so described above being used to apply for a world record is or is not compliant with IGFA's scent rule. I am convinced however that Doug Blodgett at IGFA would know, or could refer anybody to the person or persons within IGFA who DO know if scent-laden slime squeeze-pumped into a foam fly is, or is NOT IGFA rule compliant.

I do have precise prior knowledge that the IGFA will take any actions it deems necessary and sufficient to validate compliance with its rules. For example the IGFA did send my popping bug, tippet, leader and two foot length of fly line to an independent testing laboratory. The only information IGFA chose to reveal to me was that the lab reported that my tippet broke when stressed at 4.19 pounds pressure. The IGFA might choose to send any fly accompanying a world record application to an independant testing laboratory to ascertain if the fly contained any "scent" in violation of IGFA rules.

sandy further said:

I've published quite a few fly tying pieces in glossy magazines over the
years. But I know I could never get anything about
scent-laden foam Crayfish flies published. Even though they're hot as
a fish catching pistol. Why not is part of my original question.
Why are the concepts of odor and wiggling, lure-like flies
so totally off limits in polite fly fishing society?

I don't know why magazines would not publish articles about scent-laden crawfish nor why odor is so totally off limits in fly fishing society. I too have wondered why scents are unacceptable in high gloss popping bug topcoats.

Perhaps, just perhaps, scents are unacceptable when fly fishing is because when some people read IGFA's rules, they choose to believe scents are illegal.

Good luckj!
John

Thats a Very Interesting Theory about trout Nipping Each Other,
jbthwart77. I've had a Theory of My Own for awhile. I wonder if you put
a Plane Of Glass in the Aquarium, and put a Baitfish on The Other Side,
so that the Trout will Bump His Nose when he LUNGES for It, will he
then Remember That Fish when the Pane Of Glass is REMOVED?

If you TRY it, Let Us Know the RESULT.

TIA

--rivermn

Originally Posted by riverman

Thats a Very Interesting Theory about trout Nipping Each Other,
jbthwart77. I've had a Theory of My Own for awhile. I wonder if you put
a Plane Of Glass in the Aquarium, and put a Baitfish on The Other Side,
so that the Trout will Bump His Nose when he LUNGES for It, will he
then Remember That Fish when the Pane Of Glass is REMOVED?

If you TRY it, Let Us Know the RESULT.

TIA

--rivermn

Howdy Riverman, I'm Not a Biologist By any means but,Yes he will be ready for 2 things,either to chase or avoid any confrontation 90% of the time. I have put glass in an Aquarium to seperate the Adult fish from their Offspring when they consume the young,etc. even different species at same agegroup etc.
Rainbows are a Vicious Breed and I do believe that They have a Stronger or just as Strong since of Smell and Taste for "Meat" as any Flathead Catfish I've ever seen. Both, or All species have some things in common as far as Taste ,Smell, and even Curiosity; Yes they are Highly Intellegent, I have Proved it. At 2" long,The Flathead Catfish is Trainable at feeding time, where the Trout will sometimes Starve himself to avoid being seen or Noticed,Touched,etc. Rainbows and others as well, Like to think they are Invisable which is self satisfaction. This I've tested with several different kinds of Aquatic Critters in aquariums rite down to Crawdads; Most people have No Clue How Smart "All Wild Critters" are; The fish in the Arkansas Southwest Rivers are Being Cross Bred,Yes and they are some of the Scrappiest fish I ever delt with My Theory is, and I don't care what the School books say,"Anything that consumes Food" has to Use his Brain to Smell,Taste,Touch; and only Lives to Eat, Reproduce,and Stay in a Survival Mode. I miss the River. It's been 3 1/2 years.