why would anyone bother with a baitcasting reel for freshwater ?

Thundercat wrote:
On 7 Aug 2006 14:22:26 -0700, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:

Who are you trying to kid ? Now all of a sudden, a spinning rod can't
cast 200 feet ? Wake up and smell the coffee.

Put a full spool light line on a good long spinning rod, with a heavy
bottom weight- and try it one time. 200 feet casts no problem.

Want to go that far heavier line, you say ?? just add weight and keep
the spool topped off.

Lets battle! I'll grab my Scorpion spooled w/ 20lb PowerPro, you get
your contraption and I'll trip trap to whatever bridge you live under
and we can go at it with nice simple 5" Senkos for distance. Accuracy
count yes or no?

.
Harry J aka Thundercat
Share the knowledge, compete on execution...
http://www.brooklynbillstackleshop.com
http://secretweaponlures.com


I'll put 2 pound test on my Shimano spinning reel, with an ounce
weight- and you'll be waiting for minutes for it to land- and using
binoculars to see where it landed.

RichZ wrote:
duty-honor-country wrote:
RichZ wrote:

duty-honor-country wrote:

question- considering the incessant amount of tangles and backlashes
with ANY bait casting reel,

You are blaming your own shortcomings on the hardware. Sad.


you are blaming another person for your hardware preferences- that's
what's even sadder.



??? I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I didn't comment on your
preference for spinning tackle, just your insistence that backlashes and
tangles are unavoidable and 'incessant' with casting tackle -- a
position that just isn't accurate. You seem to think it is, which
reflects only on your your abilities with the tackle, not on the design
of the tackle itself.

There is no denying that casting tackle requires a more skilled and
practiced hand to cast. The lighter the weight being cast, the broader
the gap in how much skill is needed to do it with casting tackle rather
than spinning gear. You apparently haven't developed that skill, and
are blaming the tackle. Then again, you might be trying to learn with a
piece of junk, and it really IS the tackle.

I prefer spinning tackle for any application in which I use 6 lb test or
lower. Since drop shotting is among my favorite techniques, and I pretty
much wrote the book (or at least the article in In-Fisherman magazine
years ago) on light tackle jig & worm fishing, most days I use spinning
gear as much as, or more than casting tackle. But as soon as I go
heavier than that, casting gear gets the nod. It's more comfortable, and
in sizes suitable for handling heavy line, much lighter.

Also, in pure mechanical engineering terms, a casting reel is a more
elegant and efficient machine for retrieving the line. Spinning gear
takes the line around an awkward right angle turn on the retrieve, and
that turn puts pressure at a right angle to the bearing on which the
rotor rotates, trying to cock the rotor whenever it is pulling weight
around that awful corner. Further, the spinning reel asks you to set
into motion a large rotor and bail, instead of a comparatively small
spool to wind the line. The rotor/roller/bail assembly is an out of
balance, rotating mass -- something they taught us to avoid when I
studied mechanical design. If it wasn't such a good design for a reel's
other function (paying out line) it would be tough to even justify the
existence of a spinning reel. But because it does such a good job with
that half of its responsibilities -- particularly when light line and
light weights are involved -- I find it to be worth putting up with its
poor design for the other half of its job, but only in specific
circumstances.

I really don't care what kind of tackle you or anyone else prefers. I
know lots of anglers who don't have the ambition, dexterity or resolve
to learn to use a bait casting reel with any amount of confidence and
grace. I happily share my boat with several 'spinning gear only'
anglers. I'd much rather they concentrate on the important parts of
fishing -- finding fish and forcing them or tricking them into biting
something artificial -- than on trying to master tackle that they're
uncomfortable with for no reason other than that's what some pro uses.
As long as they're not doing something dumb like trying to fish in heavy
cover with 6 or 8 pound test because that's all that really fishes well
on their light spinning gear, more power to them. And to you.


whoa- are you saying you can use 8 and 10 pound line on a baitcasting
reel ? I disagree- not very reliably !! Set the hook hard with 8
pound test on a baitcaster, and it's going to bury the line into the
spool ! Those baitcasting rigs don't even get near reliable unless
used with 14-15 pound test. Those bass pros aren't using 8 pound test
on baitcasters, that's for sure- it would be a recipe for disaster.

yes, a casting reel is more elegant- for cranking the line in- but not
for casting- and only good IF you use thick line ! that inherently
means shorter casts- because heavier line going out, has more
resistance in the rod eyes.

bass pros use 14-17 lb. test line- but the bass they are catching are
always somewhat smaller than that in weight. So what we have is,
chunking up line size used to drag through weeds and obstacles, and
keep the reel from backlashing on casts- not to drag in 15 lb. fish.

again- if you used the same rod, weight, and line- only difference
being the reel type, spinning vs. baitcasting- the spinning reel is
inherently going to cast further. It doesn't have a spool that's
turning, creating friction, to cast out. And it doesn't have a thumb
on it either, slowing it down, to prevent a backlash.

otherwise, try casting with no thumb control with a baitcaster. BANG-
backlash city. The fisherman HAS TO slow the spool down with his
thumb, or it backlashes- that in itself shortens the cast. It's either
slow it down with your thumb, or tighten up the spool clutch tension.
I've found a tighter clutch tension allows me to keep my thumb off the
spool until the end of the cast. Loosening it up to get distance, it
quickly over-runs without constant thumb braking. I'd rather let the
reel clutch do the braking, and my thumb just end the cast and drop the
bait in the water.

In article .com,
says...


whoa- are you saying you can use 8 and 10 pound line on a baitcasting
reel ? I disagree- not very reliably !! Set the hook hard with 8
pound test on a baitcaster, and it's going to bury the line into the
spool ! Those baitcasting rigs don't even get near reliable unless
used with 14-15 pound test. Those bass pros aren't using 8 pound test
on baitcasters, that's for sure- it would be a recipe for disaster.

yes, a casting reel is more elegant- for cranking the line in- but not
for casting- and only good IF you use thick line ! that inherently
means shorter casts- because heavier line going out, has more
resistance in the rod eyes.

bass pros use 14-17 lb. test line- but the bass they are catching are
always somewhat smaller than that in weight. So what we have is,
chunking up line size used to drag through weeds and obstacles, and
keep the reel from backlashing on casts- not to drag in 15 lb. fish.

again- if you used the same rod, weight, and line- only difference
being the reel type, spinning vs. baitcasting- the spinning reel is
inherently going to cast further. It doesn't have a spool that's
turning, creating friction, to cast out. And it doesn't have a thumb
on it either, slowing it down, to prevent a backlash.

otherwise, try casting with no thumb control with a baitcaster. BANG-
backlash city. The fisherman HAS TO slow the spool down with his
thumb, or it backlashes- that in itself shortens the cast. It's either
slow it down with your thumb, or tighten up the spool clutch tension.
I've found a tighter clutch tension allows me to keep my thumb off the
spool until the end of the cast. Loosening it up to get distance, it
quickly over-runs without constant thumb braking. I'd rather let the
reel clutch do the braking, and my thumb just end the cast and drop the
bait in the water.



I use 10 lb. Berkley Sensation, about the same diameter as normal 8 lb.
mono, on a Shimano Calcutta 150A(a round reel of appropriate size for
that line), with a 6'6" St Croix medium fast action rod and haven't had
a real birds nest type backlash for at least 2 or 3 years I.e. many
thousands of casts. About the worst I get is a few loose coils of line
around the spool at the very end of the cast, easily fixed by pulling
off a foot or two of line. I throw everything from 1/4 oz. Spinnerbaits
for rock bass to much heavier Rattletraps, to much larger in-line
spinners and even Cleo spoons. When a 40"+ Northern dives under the boat
or a spring Coho takes off, having a 'winch' sure comes in handy. The
Calcutta is a no-nonsense reel without the hype, for example what's the
point of an aluminum frame if the side plates or bearing keepers are
plastic? I avoid backlashes by what some would call abuse - I turn the
crank to engage the reel just as the lure hits the water! This technique
turned my old Citica to junk after only a few years, but the Calcutta's
seem to be able to do this just fine - mine's 6 years old and will
probably go 6 more. True it won't cast an 1/8 oz. Rapalla or jig, but
it's not designed to. The Citica will be replaced by Calcutta 200B.

I must be a Klutz, because I have a lot more problems with spinning gear
(a 7' Shimano Compre with a Symetre reel), usually in the form of a
dozen or more coils of line all coming off at once and trying to go
through the first rod guide together. The abrupt halt sometimes snaps
the line, the lure keeps on going, the coils end up on the floor of the
boat and unless I have a spare spool that rig is done for the day. This
usually happens if I try to cast just a bit farther to that special spot
where morning bass are hitting on the surface right about sun-up, or
with a heavier lure than the outfit is designed for.

Regarding distance, it depends. With a lot of lures like smaller spinner
baits, many plastics, or floating Rapallas, the limiting factors are
weight, the rod, and especially wind resistance - it's like a major
league pitcher throwing a wiffle ball, it's only going to go so far and
so fast. A Rattletrap or Cleo spoon may go a few feet farther on the
spinning rig, but with either rig and those lures really long casts
aren't really an issue.

For shore fishing I'd probably choose spinning gear, but from a boat I
use baitcasters a whole lot more than spinning, but I wouldn't swear off
one or the other. I especially like the balance and feel of spinning
gear for vertical jigging.

IMO tournament anglers use heavier gear to avoid loosing fish and to get
them into the boat fast. They wouldn't be using baitcasters if they
spent all their time dealing with backlashes. I fish multi-species for
fun at least twice a week, weather permitting and baitcasters work just
fine with lighter lines down to 8 lb. provided the reel is appropriately
sized. IMO, narrow spools, such as the Shimano 100 series reels are much
better for this than the wider spool 200 series low profile reels.

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message SNIP
You bring up valid points- but to repeat what a previous poster gleaned
from my posts- why use 20 pound test and a heavy lure, to catch an 8
pound fish ? And the added headaches of a baitcaster added to it. It
seems that same lure could be presented with a stout open faced reel
and rod, and horsed in just as easily.

***Why use 20 pound and a heavy lure to catch an 8 pound fish? Because that
is many times the right tools for the job. If you were taught how to
properly set up and use a baitcast rig, there would be no added headache. A
baitcast reel can handle heavier line much better than a spinning reel, and
typically, a spinning rod does not have the necessary backbone to adequately
horse a fish from heavy cover. Sure, it can be done, but I can do the same
with a baitcaster with a rig that is much lighter and easier to fish with
all day. Saying you can do the same with a spinning rod is like saying that
you can pound a nail with a screwdriver. Yep, you probably can, but it's
not the right tool for the job. Matching line weight to fish is fine for
open water fishing, but there are many other factors that must be considered
when choosing tackle. Fishing many of the areas I do with eight pound line
will only result in borken line, lost lures and lost fish.

They use open faced reels for deep sea fishing too- so obviously the
new ones have the gusto to horse a big fish in as well. Correct ?

***Yes, they do use spinning rods for deep-sea fishing, but look at the
weight of a spinning rod/reel combination rated for 20 pound line, then
compare a baitcast combo rated for the same. I'd rather hold and cast the
baitcaster all day than the spinning rod/reel.

Keep in mind professional bass fishermen get a lot of sponsor money.

***And those professional bass fishermen get paid to WIN tournaments. If
spinning tackle were the "End-All to End All", those selfsame professional
bass fishermen would be using spinning tackle. But, they don't, so
obviously there is a reason why baitcasting tackle is used. You could use a
Yugo to race the 24 Hours at LeMans, but you wouldn't be competitive.

I've yet to try to make a cast that I could not make with a spinning
reel. Where's the accuracy problem ? I've fished streams where the
target area is 2 feet square- and anywhere else is a snag and lost
hook/bait. If that's not an accuracy challenge, what is ?

***Then you obviously haven't fished with me. Two feet square? C'mon,
that's easy. Now, pitch a lure underneath overhanging tree branches into a
10 inch hole in the weeds, two feet underneath the overhang. THAT'S an
accuracy challenge.

I agree that for pulling a lure through lilly pads and stumps, a
baitcaster has the leverage advantage. But what average guy would fish
that area, every time ? Sooner or later, one tires of the obstacles
and snags. You may not break the line, but you may have to go up and
unsnag it often.

***THAT'S exactly why baitcasting tackle is used, leverage and mechanical
advantage. I consider myself an average guy and I fish obstacles and snags
quite often. I prefer to actually CATCH fish and that means I have to go
where they live. If you're fishing bass, pike, and muskie, they are a very
object oriented fish. That means heavier tackle, heavier lures. I don't
tire of fishing in heavy cover and I don't have to "go up and unsnag if
often" as I use the proper tools for the job, baitcasting equipment.

If there was a place where all of the fish caught were over 10 pounds,
sure I'd use a bait caster. But the baitcaster aura is reminding me of
a street car with a 6-71 supercharger sticking through the hood, that
can't get out of it's own way.

***Obviously you don't understand the concept of using the correct equipment
for the task at hand and refuse to do so.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com

Al J wrote:
In article .com,
says...


whoa- are you saying you can use 8 and 10 pound line on a baitcasting
reel ? I disagree- not very reliably !! Set the hook hard with 8
pound test on a baitcaster, and it's going to bury the line into the
spool ! Those baitcasting rigs don't even get near reliable unless
used with 14-15 pound test. Those bass pros aren't using 8 pound test
on baitcasters, that's for sure- it would be a recipe for disaster.

yes, a casting reel is more elegant- for cranking the line in- but not
for casting- and only good IF you use thick line ! that inherently
means shorter casts- because heavier line going out, has more
resistance in the rod eyes.

bass pros use 14-17 lb. test line- but the bass they are catching are
always somewhat smaller than that in weight. So what we have is,
chunking up line size used to drag through weeds and obstacles, and
keep the reel from backlashing on casts- not to drag in 15 lb. fish.

again- if you used the same rod, weight, and line- only difference
being the reel type, spinning vs. baitcasting- the spinning reel is
inherently going to cast further. It doesn't have a spool that's
turning, creating friction, to cast out. And it doesn't have a thumb
on it either, slowing it down, to prevent a backlash.

otherwise, try casting with no thumb control with a baitcaster. BANG-
backlash city. The fisherman HAS TO slow the spool down with his
thumb, or it backlashes- that in itself shortens the cast. It's either
slow it down with your thumb, or tighten up the spool clutch tension.
I've found a tighter clutch tension allows me to keep my thumb off the
spool until the end of the cast. Loosening it up to get distance, it
quickly over-runs without constant thumb braking. I'd rather let the
reel clutch do the braking, and my thumb just end the cast and drop the
bait in the water.



I use 10 lb. Berkley Sensation, about the same diameter as normal 8 lb.
mono, on a Shimano Calcutta 150A(a round reel of appropriate size for
that line), with a 6'6" St Croix medium fast action rod and haven't had
a real birds nest type backlash for at least 2 or 3 years I.e. many
thousands of casts. About the worst I get is a few loose coils of line
around the spool at the very end of the cast, easily fixed by pulling
off a foot or two of line. I throw everything from 1/4 oz. Spinnerbaits
for rock bass to much heavier Rattletraps, to much larger in-line
spinners and even Cleo spoons. When a 40"+ Northern dives under the boat
or a spring Coho takes off, having a 'winch' sure comes in handy. The
Calcutta is a no-nonsense reel without the hype, for example what's the
point of an aluminum frame if the side plates or bearing keepers are
plastic? I avoid backlashes by what some would call abuse - I turn the
crank to engage the reel just as the lure hits the water! This technique
turned my old Citica to junk after only a few years, but the Calcutta's
seem to be able to do this just fine - mine's 6 years old and will
probably go 6 more. True it won't cast an 1/8 oz. Rapalla or jig, but
it's not designed to. The Citica will be replaced by Calcutta 200B.

I must be a Klutz, because I have a lot more problems with spinning gear
(a 7' Shimano Compre with a Symetre reel), usually in the form of a
dozen or more coils of line all coming off at once and trying to go
through the first rod guide together. The abrupt halt sometimes snaps
the line, the lure keeps on going, the coils end up on the floor of the
boat and unless I have a spare spool that rig is done for the day. This
usually happens if I try to cast just a bit farther to that special spot
where morning bass are hitting on the surface right about sun-up, or
with a heavier lure than the outfit is designed for.

Regarding distance, it depends. With a lot of lures like smaller spinner
baits, many plastics, or floating Rapallas, the limiting factors are
weight, the rod, and especially wind resistance - it's like a major
league pitcher throwing a wiffle ball, it's only going to go so far and
so fast. A Rattletrap or Cleo spoon may go a few feet farther on the
spinning rig, but with either rig and those lures really long casts
aren't really an issue.

For shore fishing I'd probably choose spinning gear, but from a boat I
use baitcasters a whole lot more than spinning, but I wouldn't swear off
one or the other. I especially like the balance and feel of spinning
gear for vertical jigging.

IMO tournament anglers use heavier gear to avoid loosing fish and to get
them into the boat fast. They wouldn't be using baitcasters if they
spent all their time dealing with backlashes. I fish multi-species for
fun at least twice a week, weather permitting and baitcasters work just
fine with lighter lines down to 8 lb. provided the reel is appropriately
sized. IMO, narrow spools, such as the Shimano 100 series reels are much
better for this than the wider spool 200 series low profile reels.

great post- thanks for the info- the problem I had with line 12 lb. and
less size, it would get behind the spool on the sides on the
baitcasting reel- there's just enough space there for a piece of link
to jam its way through- with the 15 lb. test that can't happen, as the
line is physically too large to get stuck back there. Since I moved
to 15 lb. test and tightened the spool tension- I'm having much fewer
backlashes. I just weighed the bottom fishing weight I'm using, it's
3/4 oz.

One thing I have noticed is, the spool tension has to be quite a bit
tighter than the typical "slowly allows the lure to drop to the floor"
setting. At that setting, it's backlash city. I can avoid backlash at
looser spool settings, but then I can't put much energy into the cast
for distance, otherwise it will backlash. With the tighter spool
setting, I can cast it harder and get more distance, and not get
backlashes. Making progress but still not getting the accuracy and
distance of my spinning gear.

But it will crank in an old car if I snag one !

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
ups.com...
question- considering the incessant amount of tangles and backlashes
with ANY bait casting reel, and the fact your thumb must ride the spool
at all times to (try to) prevent it- why would anyone bother even using
a bait casting reel for fresh water fishing ? I can see the cranking
advantage to a bait caster, for hauling in huge fish, and dragging
lures through weeds, etc.. But in my actual experience, the bait
casters can't cast as far, and not as accurately, as a cheap open face
spinning reel or even a spincasting reel.

Being able to thumb the reel GIVES you control, it doesn't take it away.
Think about it. You fling a spincasting reel, and you're done. There's
nothing you can do about it. Anyway, once you get over how to keep control
of the reel, it's kind of like using a manual car instead of an automatic
one. And there's a feeling of being in "direct drive" rather than going
through an inefficient system - the line is "directly" attached to the reel,
not going through some system of pulleys and gears to get there
(exaggerating slightly :-)

I'm getting the notion the reel industry is doing a lot of bs-ing to
sell bait casters.

Don't be ridiculous. For what possible reason?

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
ups.com...

I've been fishing for 37 years now, and to say a baitcaster is more
accurate, is very misleading- and downright incorrect.

Wrong. You've been fishing a long time, which is not the same thing as
saying you're experienced, or good, yet.

And I've fished small
streams and creeks with open faced spinning reels, that require far
more precision than any baitcaster can give-

No, they don't offer more precision. You just aren't good at it. But
spinning gear does offer an advantage over casting gear with very light
weight lures, and that's why you use spinning gear with very light lures.

and would leave a
baitcasting reel in a birdsnest tangle.

For those who can't cast, yes.


The only useful purpose I can see for a baitcaster, is fishing from a
boat on large lakes and ocean, where the bait it tossed a few feet from
the boat, and then trolled- and the fish are huge over 15 pounds.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Calling that 1800's technology a "baitcaster" is somewhat of an
oxymoron- it's a winch designed to haul up heavy fish- and a winch gets
tangled when it spins backwards fast. The makers of those reals need
to improve them a bit, to eliminate backlash.

Virtually all of them do.

They don't cast bait for crap !

YOU don't cast bait for crap.

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
oups.com...
You'll never have a backlash problem with a spinning reel. You may
pull a few tangles out on a newly filled reel, but that will be it.
You will have much more tangles with a baitcaster than a spinning rod.

No, YOU will. I've seen people have horrendous problems with spinning
reels.

And all of a sudden, the "farther" argument for casting with
baitcasters has disappeared.

No, just for light lures, as I said. The way the line comes off a spinning
reel means less friction, which is good for very light lures. When the
lures get heavier, it really doesn't matter because a bait caster can't cast
as far as he needs to, so it's moot.

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
ups.com...

WARREN WOLK wrote:
Amazing you had time to haul in 12 fish, considering all the backlashes &
tangles you picked out.

I fished for 9 hours over those 2 days. Spent 6 hours in the boat
yesterday.

Not only did I untangle the reel a zillion times- I'm now on my 3rd
respool of line.

Like I said, you're just not good at it. Happens with all sorts of skills
with all sorts of people.

"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you think about it, it's actually common sense. A baitcaster reel
has more internal friction than a spinning reel.

Why don't you use your head man? There's a reason all the pros use casting
reels, and it ain't because the manufacturers are twisting their arms. They
could whatever kind of reel was the most popular. Figure out the reason
instead of stating all the time what you "know" about casting reels and how
to fish them.