Putting the X back in Xmas

Steve wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:39:27 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


" wrote in message
roups.com...


Christmas is a pagan holiday

Wrong. It is a Christian holiday. One would like to think that even an
engineer could find the tell-tale "Christ" in "Christmas."

which the christians relatively recently tried to co-opt

Wrong. They invented it......quite a while ago.

Why does this myth of the "Christian co-opt" continue?
The best that could be argued is that by _some_ accounts Saturnalia
ended on Dec. 25.
The other claimed holidays of the pagans were clearly not on the 25th.
I dunno.

You might want to do a little research first:

"Christmas has its origins in several pagan holidays. The Roman
celebration known as Saturnalia included the making and giving of small
presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia). This holiday was observed over a
series of days beginning on December 17 (the birthday of Saturn), and
ending on December 25 (the birthday of Sol Invictus, the "unconquered
sun".
"

"Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, and its pagan
celebrations had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still
call Christmas Jul (Yule), originally the name of a twelve-day
pre-Christian winter festival. Logs were lit to honor Thor, the god of
thunder, hence the "Yule log." In Germany, the equivalent holiday is
called Mitwinternacht (mid-winter night). There are also twelve
Rauhnächte (harsh or wild nights).
"

The whole christmas tree, yule log, holly, mistletoe come from
the pagan holidays......please tell me you know that Easter isn't
a christian holiday at least?
- Ken

"Steve" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:39:27 -0600, "Wolfgang"
wrote:


" wrote in message
groups.com...


Christmas is a pagan holiday

Wrong. It is a Christian holiday. One would like to think that even an
engineer could find the tell-tale "Christ" in "Christmas."

which the christians relatively recently tried to co-opt

Wrong. They invented it......quite a while ago.

Why does this myth of the "Christian co-opt" continue?
The best that could be argued is that by _some_ accounts Saturnalia
ended on Dec. 25.
The other claimed holidays of the pagans were clearly not on the 25th.
I dunno.

Depends on which myth you're referring to. If it's the Christians co-opted
Christmas thingy......well, that's just the sort of stupidity one has got to
get used to here.....or die. If we're talking about the one where
Christians co-opted one or another pagan holy day (or some combination)
which they then called Christmas.....that's really not a myth. That little
problem of the precise date looks bad, but it's inconsequential. It's been
dealt with innumerable times by scholars and, in simplest terms, can be put
down to calendrical quirks. The fact is that more or less official
observances of the known and predictable celestial events, and the equinoxes
and solstices in particular, have been nearly universal in cultures around
the world throughout history. As long as someone kept close track of the
apparent motion of the sun, timing the celebrations was (and is) no big
deal. The trouble starts when somebody tries to carve the year up into
equal divisions and only gets worse with the realization that "year" is a
rather fluid concept, and when attempts are made to coordinate solar and
lunar events. And then, to top it off, someone comes up with the idea
pulling it all together in a fixed calendar.

And then, as if fixed feasts that couldn't be placed precisely weren't weird
enough, some geniuses decided that moveable feasts would be even MORE fun!


Wolfgang
and they were right.

" wrote in
oups.com:

..please tell me you know that Easter isn't
a christian holiday at least?


Then what is it? Having origins in pagan celebratins does not make it a
pagan holiday--unless, of course, one is trying to make a meaningless
point.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

"asadi" wrote in message
et...

"Donut" wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov 2006 21:50:21 -0800, wrote:

Not that I'm for offending people, but I think it is ironic that you
can't give Jesus for Chrstmas:

http://www.richmondtimesdispatch.com...!news!vaapwire

..... that creaking sound you hear, is western civilazation
toppling.... as it bends over backwards...

PS, I see the point, but the irony is palpable..

"We can't take a chance on sending a talking Jesus doll to a Jewish
family or a Muslim family,"...

------------

MISSION: The mission of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Toys for Tots
Program is to collect new, unwrapped toys during October, November and
December each year, and distribute those toys as Christmas gifts to
needy children in the community in which the campaign is conducted.

http://www.toysfortots2006.com/magno...gle/about.html

------------

Well if you really want to put the X back in Xmas, these guys need to
take the word Christmas out of their mission statement if they aren't
sorting the children by religion somehow. Wouldn't it be just as
offensive to give a *Christmas* gift to a Jewish or Muslim child? Or
does the fact that the " bearded Jesus doll recites Scripture"... make
it REALLY offensive?

I think they, the Toys for Tot's group, should just come out and say
it, most kids don't want a talking Jesus doll for Christmas! Unless
it's the Fighting Christ® with Kung Fu grip, everyone wants that

But seriously, I don't know how they reconcile the giving of
*Christmas* gifts to those of other faiths. Maybe the Jesus doll was
their tipping point? And remember who the recipients are, children.
As adults we can intelligently choose whether to accept a gift, young
children cannot. It's a present, they want it. Parents have a right,
and some would say an obligation to censor what their very young
children are exposed to.

But back to your original point, sure you can give Jesus for
Christmas. Toys for Tot's chose not to, doesn't mean you can't As a
matter of fact, I heard that someone was trying to give away 4,000 of
them

Don




Really, it's an old pagan holiday and the word 'christ' shouldn't be in it
at all... Besides, heysoos was born in the spring....

Other than that, if you want to celebrate, I feel it's okay. I always go
downtown and pick up a couple of chicks to play Sodom and Gomorrah...

john

John, you're an idiot!

Gene

" wrote in message
oups.com...

......please tell me you know that Easter isn't
a christian holiday at least?

Wrong. Easter IS a Christian holiday.

Wolfgang
i sweartagod, one of these days what the boy thinks he means and what he
says are going to come into some sort of grand conjunction and the universe
will simply wink out of existence.

Scott Seidman wrote:
" wrote in
oups.com:

..please tell me you know that Easter isn't
a christian holiday at least?


Then what is it? Having origins in pagan celebratins does not make it a
pagan holiday--unless, of course, one is trying to make a meaningless
point.

It's exactly what I told you about X-mas. Christians co-opting
existing pagan holidays to convert people to their relgion.

"Many of the symbols associated with the modern holiday of Christmas
such as the burning of the Yule log, the eating of ham, the hanging of
boughs, holly, mistletoe, etc. are apparently derived from traditional
northern European Yule celebrations. When the first missionaries began
converting the Germanic peoples to Christianity, they found it easier
to simply provide a Christian reinterpretation for popular feasts such
as Yule and allow the celebrations themselves to go on largely
unchanged, rather than trying to suppress them.
"

"Eostre was the Saxon version of the Germanic lunar goddess Ostara. She
gave her name to the Christian Easter and to the female hormone
estrogen. Her feast day was held on the full moon following the vernal
equinox -- almost the identical calculation as for the Christian Easter
in the west. One delightful legend associated with Eostre was that she
found an injured bird on the ground one winter. To save its life, she
transformed it into a hare. But "the transformation was not a complete
one. The bird took the appearance of a hare but retained the ability to
lay eggs. ..the hare would decorate these eggs and leave them as gifts
to Eostre.
"

What do you think decorating eggs or celebrating a rabbit have
to do with christianity? Why does the date of Easter vary with
the lunar cycle?
- Ken

" wrote in
oups.com:


What do you think decorating eggs or celebrating a rabbit have
to do with christianity? Why does the date of Easter vary with
the lunar cycle?
- Ken



No-- those are traditions linked to the celebration of Easter, which is a
holiday commemorating the resurrection of Christ. Those traditions are
carried over from pagan holidays, but that doesn't mean Easter is a pagan
holiday. Easter is Easter, with or without the eggs and chocolate bunnies.

Same with Christmas, which is still Christmas even if one chooses to forego
the tree, the log, the ham, the mistletoe, and the Watching of the Grinch.

Both are "pagan" holidays only to those who feel the need to make some sort
of feeble iconoclastic point. Having roots established in pagan holidays
is simply not the same thing as being a pagan holiday. Equating the two is
a logical flaw. Chimps and Gorillas may share a common ancestor, but you
wouldn't say that a chimp is a gorilla, would you?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

"Scott Seidman" wrote in message
. 1.4...
" wrote in
oups.com:


What do you think decorating eggs or celebrating a rabbit have
to do with christianity? Why does the date of Easter vary with
the lunar cycle?
- Ken



No-- those are traditions linked to the celebration of Easter, which is a
holiday commemorating the resurrection of Christ. Those traditions are
carried over from pagan holidays, but that doesn't mean Easter is a pagan
holiday. Easter is Easter, with or without the eggs and chocolate
bunnies.

Same with Christmas, which is still Christmas even if one chooses to
forego
the tree, the log, the ham, the mistletoe, and the Watching of the Grinch.

Both are "pagan" holidays only to those who feel the need to make some
sort
of feeble iconoclastic point. Having roots established in pagan holidays
is simply not the same thing as being a pagan holiday. Equating the two
is
a logical flaw. Chimps and Gorillas may share a common ancestor, but you
wouldn't say that a chimp is a gorilla, would you?

It's simpler than that, Scott. He really didn't know what he was saying.
Now that it has been pointed out to him, watch him spin!

Wolfgang
well......assuming he gets it.

Scott Seidman wrote:
" wrote in
oups.com:


What do you think decorating eggs or celebrating a rabbit have
to do with christianity? Why does the date of Easter vary with
the lunar cycle?
- Ken



No-- those are traditions linked to the celebration of Easter, which is a
holiday commemorating the resurrection of Christ. Those traditions are
carried over from pagan holidays, but that doesn't mean Easter is a pagan
holiday. Easter is Easter, with or without the eggs and chocolate bunnies.

Now you are into what a holiday means to the participants.
On a personal level, it can mean whatever you like.

Arguing that Easter (whose name even comes from the
original pagan goddess) is a christian holiday simply
because christians called it their own is absurd. At least
in X-mas they changed the name. Easter is an ancient
spring fertility holiday. At various times in history christians
have even tried to get their followers to not celebrate Easter/
X-mas because they are pagan holidays. With all due respect,
if you can keep from getting upset about it, the history of
our holidays can be very interesting.

Next you'll try to tell me that Halloween is a christian
holiday....I feel like I'm leading a horse to water. ;-)
- Ken

Gene Cottrell wrote:
John, you're an idiot!

Say what you want, but that Sodom and Gomorrah things sounds like a
good time to me. :-)

Joe F.