Putting the X back in Xmas

rb608 wrote:
Gene Cottrell wrote:
John, you're an idiot!

Say what you want, but that Sodom and Gomorrah things sounds like a
good time to me. :-)

Depends. Can a celebrant restrict hisself to Gomorrahy?

wrote:
Now you are into what a holiday means to the participants.

That's pretty much it in a nushell. Despite the Pagan origins of the
symbols and practices, when Christians celebrate the birth and/or death
of their messiah, that makes it undeniably a Christian holiday. As to
what goes on outside the walls of their respective churches, however,
I'd say you're on pretty firm ground with the Pagan thing.

To deny that is to suggest that the Fourth of July isn't really an
American holiday because it was on the calendar before 1776.

Joe F.

On 15 Nov 2006 21:36:41 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

" wrote in
roups.com:


What do you think decorating eggs or celebrating a rabbit have
to do with christianity? Why does the date of Easter vary with
the lunar cycle?
- Ken



No-- those are traditions linked to the celebration of Easter, which is a
holiday commemorating the resurrection of Christ. Those traditions are
carried over from pagan holidays, but that doesn't mean Easter is a pagan
holiday. Easter is Easter, with or without the eggs and chocolate bunnies.

Same with Christmas, which is still Christmas even if one chooses to forego
the tree, the log, the ham, the mistletoe, and the Watching of the Grinch.

Jesus H. Christ on a donkey..._forego_?!?! You goddamned blasphemous
heathen!!

Both are "pagan" holidays only to those who feel the need to make some sort
of feeble iconoclastic point. Having roots established in pagan holidays
is simply not the same thing as being a pagan holiday.

Are you making fun of the pagans? RACIST! RACIST!

Equating the two is
a logical flaw. Chimps and Gorillas may share a common ancestor, but you
wouldn't say that a chimp is a gorilla, would you?

Um, well, just how big is the gorilla, and what does HE prefer?

Reminds me of a joke...

A down-on-his-luck redneck goes into a gay bar and asks if there are any
jobs to be had.

"Well," says Trystian, the bartender, "not as such, but we do have old
ugly Mikey, who hasn't been laid since Judy was singin' in the Wizard
and there's a rather large, beastly gorilla out back that causes all
sorts of trouble. Take care of both of them, and I'll pay you $500US."

"No problem," says good ol' Kenny Bob, as he heads toward the back.

He closes the door behind himself, and all hell breaks loose. It sounds
like a glass works in a cement mixer full of bowling balls for about 10
minutes. Finally, Kenny Bob returns, all battered and bruised.

"One down, one to go...where's the old queer what needs the
ass-whoopin'," says Kenny Bob...

"rb608" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
Now you are into what a holiday means to the participants.

That's pretty much it in a nushell. Despite the Pagan origins of the
symbols and practices, when Christians celebrate the birth and/or death
of their messiah, that makes it undeniably a Christian holiday. As to
what goes on outside the walls of their respective churches, however,
I'd say you're on pretty firm ground with the Pagan thing.

To deny that is to suggest that the Fourth of July isn't really an
American holiday because it was on the calendar before 1776.

Joe F.


Brings to mind that old bar quiz question....

Do they have the 4th of July in England....

Works best on unsuspecting victims after a few drinks.

" wrote in
ups.com:

With all due respect,
if you can keep from getting upset about it, the history of
our holidays can be very interesting.


I'm not upset about it, it's not even my holiday. It is interesting-- but
to call it a pagan holiday is a real stretch. Note that I didn't have any
problems with your secular definition of Christmas- for many folks who take
the day off work, that's what it is.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

wrote in
:

Are you making fun of the pagans? RACIST! RACIST!

Wouldn't dream of it. Some of my best friends are pagans... or are they
heathens?? No, no ... HEDONISTS!! That's it


Equating the two is
a logical flaw. Chimps and Gorillas may share a common ancestor, but
you wouldn't say that a chimp is a gorilla, would you?

Um, well, just how big is the gorilla, and what does HE prefer?



It's a big gorilla, but personally, I think I'd rather take my chances
against a big male gorilla over a big alpha chimp. Chimps can be downright
mean.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

"rb608" wrote in news:1163628153.786238.18260
@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

To deny that is to suggest that the Fourth of July isn't really an
American holiday because it was on the calendar before 1776.

Joe F.



Wouldn't this mean that the Fourth of July is based on whatever religion
Ceasar was practicing? Perhaps we should be wearing togas when we
celebrate the fourth.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

rb608 wrote:
wrote:
Now you are into what a holiday means to the participants.

That's pretty much it in a nushell. Despite the Pagan origins of the
symbols and practices, when Christians celebrate the birth and/or death
of their messiah, that makes it undeniably a Christian holiday.

And when non-christians celebrate it....then it's not a christian
holiday. I can live with that definition. For millions of people,
christmas is strictly a secular holiday.

Returning to the start of this thread. For those millions of people,
receiving an evangelizing religious gift on a secular holiday would be
bothersome (especially for children).
"Happy Halloween, have a Krishna doll. 'I was in the original
resurrection.'"
- Ken

Scott Seidman wrote:
" wrote in
ups.com:

With all due respect,
if you can keep from getting upset about it, the history of
our holidays can be very interesting.


I'm not upset about it, it's not even my holiday. It is interesting-- but
to call it a pagan holiday is a real stretch. Note that I didn't have any
problems with your secular definition of Christmas- for many folks who take
the day off work, that's what it is.

Consensus seems to be that the holiday is whatever it's
participants take it to be. For pagans, I think they have
at least as strong a claim on the holiday as christians do.
- Ken

Skwala wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Not that I'm for offending people, but I think it is ironic that you
can't give Jesus for Chrstmas:

http://www.richmondtimesdispatch.com...!news!vaapwire

..... that creaking sound you hear, is western civilazation
toppling.... as it bends over backwards...

PS, I see the point, but the irony is palpable..


What the Marines do with Toys for Tots is nondenominational. The Religious
Right implying that its foul play to not accept talking Jesus toys is like
the Romans claiming it was foul play for the Trojans to refuse the horse.

Romans? Paris and Helen of Sparta would be very upset to be indentified to
the bask water rustis village (as it was during the Trojan War)...



And for anyone else to claim its foul play is just religious hypocricy.

Christ's association with Christmas is historically a very recent event;
only since the 10th or 11th century. Consumerist Santa is considerably
more relevant today, and historically, midwinter festivals such as Yule,
Saturnalia or Yalda, predate Christ by millenia. The evidence doesn't even
support that Christ was born in December.


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.


Interesting. The midwinter festival has a 4000+ year old history in the
rest of the world, diverse roots, multiple religious origins and many
different traditions. Identifying it as a Christian religion was even
outlawed for a brief time in a Christian country, yet the US insists
that its own cultural identification of the Christmas story is the
right one, while the associations the rest of the world has with this
worldwide event, which they originated, are 'beside the point'.

Never mind that the only christmas icon that is truly american is
Santa's Coca-cola Red outfit, and that every other aspect of the
celebration originates in the rest of the world and has been
*******ized. St. Nicholas (with his GREEN suit) is from Turkey, the
christmas tree is from scandanavia (as is the name; 'Kris Kringle') or
Germany (as is "Santa Claus") or Egypt, most of the food we associate
with the christmas feast originates from Germany, Bavaria and central
Europe, the blazing fireplace (Yule festival: Norway) with stockings
hanging for gifts (northern Europe), Santa's sleigh with reindeer
(Finland), the three wise men (Maji: Jordan and Iraq) the manger
(eastern europe), the nativity scene (completely ficticious imagery
from superimposing names from Palestine upon a Northern European
landscape), Baby Jesus (Israel), the birth of baby Jesus in december
(concocted by the Romans), and timing of the holiday in late december
(multiple origins), the birth and resurrection (egypt), hanging
mistletoe (Norse or celtic), hanging lights (Scandanavia or Europe) and
giving gifts (Turkey). But we take the imagery, change it to suit our
own cultural taste, dose it with heavy commercialism, then declare
private ownership of the whole thing. The entire Jesus Christmas story
as celebrated and told in the US today is a concoction of events; most
ficticious, many policitally or commercially motivated, all
ethnocentric.

--riverman