Tying issue with streamers

Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Hole
http://www.mainetackle.com

Sprattoo wrote:
Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Hole
http://www.mainetackle.com



The main thing is weight distribution. This may be altered considerably
by lowering the wing so that it is more or less parallel to the shank.
Hooks are also important, as is the material used. Not all materials
are buoyant, some are heavier than water when wet and flip the fly over.
Hackles can be a particular problem, Older streamers were dressed with
hackles which had fairly thick hollow buoyant stems ( quill), modern
genetic hackles have thin dense heavy stems.

One may obviate some of these problems by adding lead carefully to the
hook shank, which once again makes the hook shank heavier than the
dressing. This will also require wing position adjustment, if you use
genetic hackles.

TL
MC

This will of course alter the action of the streamer. If possible, you
should obtain the right hackles. This will solve your problems
immediately. Chinese or similar hackles are better than genetics, but
are becoming increasingly diffcult to obtain.

On many streamers, a small amount of lead wire added to the BUTT! of the
stremer will prevent it flipping, but also alters the action.

Using an underwing of bucktail will also solve the problem, ( Bucktail
is buoyant), without altering the action of the streamer much, indeed it
may well improve it, and prevent it flipping over. In this case you may
also use genetic hackles on the wings.

Lastly, the "flipping" action is sometimes highly desirable, as long as
the fly rights itself when retrieved, as this is typical of the
"flashing" behaviour displayed by many baitfish.

TL
MC

You might also find this of considerable interest;

http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers...k/martinek.htm

TL
MC

On Nov 3, 3:29 pm, Sprattoo wrote:
Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Holehttp://www.mainetackle.com

If they look good they most likely are good. The knot you tie them on
with probably has more infulence than the "ballance" of the fly. If
you tied them with every feather, and every hackle matched from side
to side you might have the same problem. The length of the tag end of
your knot is more influential than the "ballance: of the fly. Most
flys don't really look like what they are supposed to imitate so who
knows or cares as long as fish go for it.

On Nov 3, 9:36 pm, BJConner wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:29 pm, Sprattoo wrote:



Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Holehttp://www.mainetackle.com

If they look good they most likely are good. The knot you tie them on
with probably has more infulence than the "ballance" of the fly. If
you tied them with every feather, and every hackle matched from side
to side you might have the same problem. The length of the tag end of
your knot is more influential than the "ballance: of the fly. Most
flys don't really look like what they are supposed to imitate so who
knows or cares as long as fish go for it.

Thanks for all the tips.. and the link.
i will certainly take a closer look at my knots before I dig deeply
into the hackle issue. I think i have good supplies. I like to use
rumf (since we are rumpf dealers)

I have been giving my clinch knots some extra twists to keep them from
slipping, maybe I should switch knots when fishing streamers?

Lloyd M
http://www.mainetackle.com

On 4 Nov, 05:01, Sprattoo wrote:
On Nov 3, 9:36 pm, BJConner wrote:



On Nov 3, 3:29 pm, Sprattoo wrote:

Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Holehttp://www.mainetackle.com

If they look good they most likely are good. The knot you tie them on
with probably has more infulence than the "ballance" of the fly. If
you tied them with every feather, and every hackle matched from side
to side you might have the same problem. The length of the tag end of
your knot is more influential than the "ballance: of the fly. Most
flys don't really look like what they are supposed to imitate so who
knows or cares as long as fish go for it.

Thanks for all the tips.. and the link.
i will certainly take a closer look at my knots before I dig deeply
into the hackle issue. I think i have good supplies. I like to use
rumf (since we are rumpf dealers)

I have been giving my clinch knots some extra twists to keep them from
slipping, maybe I should switch knots when fishing streamers?

Lloyd Mhttp://www.mainetackle.com

It is not a good idea to give extra twists to a clinch knot, it
weakens the knot, and will not prevent it slipping. Use an improved
clinch instead;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...s/leaders.html

(scroll to bottom of page, the "improved clinch knot" is the same knot
as the "tucked half blood knot".

Quite a number of streamer dressers prefer straight eyed hooks for
their streamers, and Keith Fulsher has this to say about it ;

QUOTE

In weighting a fly, I like to add the weight only to the forward part
of the hook shank, primarily under the head. This keep the fly from
riding upside down due to the added weight upsetting the natural hook
balance and give the fly a little diving action as you swim it across
the water in a series of darting motions. A 4X to 6X long straight eye
hook is the best one to use because the straight eye acts as an
extension of the head and the retrieve is not influenced by an up- or
down-turned hook eye.

UNQUOTE

Others use various tricks to produce certain actions, but this too is
an extensive and complex subject.

Using the right hackles will make a big difference.

TL
MC

On Nov 3, 11:10 pm, Mike wrote:
On 4 Nov, 05:01, Sprattoo wrote:



On Nov 3, 9:36 pm, BJConner wrote:

On Nov 3, 3:29 pm, Sprattoo wrote:

Hello again gang,

I have been tying flies for quite a while and only just recently
started tying them for sale in our shop. I have fished with TONS of
tied flies from our tyers and seem to be having a problem I hope this
group can help me solve.

My tandem streamers fish great, and work perfectly, in fact I have had
many compliments from old, weathered fishermen on them which is
always nice. The problem I am having exactly is that some of my single
hook streamers tend to roll over when fished. It seems that hydro
dynamics and aerodynamics should work about the same, but in practice
maybe not. It seems to me a streamer wing would naturally keep a fly
upright when tied on top. Some flies work great and some don't at all.
I don't want to be selling flies that roll belly up when fished.

What exactly is it that makes a streamer that looks well tied, roll
upside down when fished?

I have copied the patterns of my tyers to the letter, and still seem
to occasionally have this problem. The ones I have the hardest time
with are patterns with multiple hackles on the wings. Grey ghosts and
the like in particular. Patterns with only one or two hackles seem to
stay upright. Are the feathers out-weighing the hook? Even if this is
true why wont they right themselves when stripped in? Any help would
be appreciated.

Lloyd Metcalf
The Fishin' Holehttp://www.mainetackle.com

If they look good they most likely are good. The knot you tie them on
with probably has more infulence than the "ballance" of the fly. If
you tied them with every feather, and every hackle matched from side
to side you might have the same problem. The length of the tag end of
your knot is more influential than the "ballance: of the fly. Most
flys don't really look like what they are supposed to imitate so who
knows or cares as long as fish go for it.

Thanks for all the tips.. and the link.
i will certainly take a closer look at my knots before I dig deeply
into the hackle issue. I think i have good supplies. I like to use
rumf (since we are rumpf dealers)

I have been giving my clinch knots some extra twists to keep them from
slipping, maybe I should switch knots when fishing streamers?

Lloyd Mhttp://www.mainetackle.com

It is not a good idea to give extra twists to a clinch knot, it
weakens the knot, and will not prevent it slipping. Use an improved
clinch instead;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on..._ups/Leaders/l...

(scroll to bottom of page, the "improved clinch knot" is the same knot
as the "tucked half blood knot".

Quite a number of streamer dressers prefer straight eyed hooks for
their streamers, and Keith Fulsher has this to say about it ;

QUOTE

In weighting a fly, I like to add the weight only to the forward part
of the hook shank, primarily under the head. This keep the fly from
riding upside down due to the added weight upsetting the natural hook
balance and give the fly a little diving action as you swim it across
the water in a series of darting motions. A 4X to 6X long straight eye
hook is the best one to use because the straight eye acts as an
extension of the head and the retrieve is not influenced by an up- or
down-turned hook eye.

UNQUOTE

Others use various tricks to produce certain actions, but this too is
an extensive and complex subject.

Using the right hackles will make a big difference.

TL
MC

I use an improved clinch, but was still having slipping problems. The
only time i don't have that isue is when i put a double loop through
the eye, then tie the improved clinch.
This is only possible when the eye is big enough though.
I was finding 5 twists on an improved clinch slipping regularly and
incredibly frustrating. I was however, using a relatively light tippet
(2-3lb test) something like a 4x I think. So maybe I should just suck
it up and fish my streamers with more like a 3x or 2x at 6-8 lb test.
Perhaps the heavier line would tie more securely.

I was having to twist my improved clinches as many as 8 times to get a
solid hold.

I will try to us some thicker hackles, I found myself trying lighter
and sparser hackles thinking they would work better, but if, as you
say, the heavier hackles have more hollow fibers to make them more
buoyant, that would make sense.

On 5 Nov, 03:00, Sprattoo wrote:

I use an improved clinch, but was still having slipping problems. The
only time i don't have that isue is when i put a double loop through
the eye, then tie the improved clinch.
This is only possible when the eye is big enough though.
I was finding 5 twists on an improved clinch slipping regularly and
incredibly frustrating. I was however, using a relatively light tippet
(2-3lb test) something like a 4x I think. So maybe I should just suck
it up and fish my streamers with more like a 3x or 2x at 6-8 lb test.
Perhaps the heavier line would tie more securely.

I was having to twist my improved clinches as many as 8 times to get a
solid hold.

I will try to us some thicker hackles, I found myself trying lighter
and sparser hackles thinking they would work better, but if, as you
say, the heavier hackles have more hollow fibers to make them more
buoyant, that would make sense.

If you TWIST the clinch knot, it will fail, or slip. You have to
WRAP the end of the line five times around the standing line ( on fine
lines). I have never had such a knot slip. Lubricating the knot
( spit) is also important, as is drawing it slowly tight.

If you use less than five turns on fine lines, up to about 8 lb
breaking strain nylon, or twist the knot, instead of wrapping it, it
will slip. If you use more turns, it weakens the knot.

Also, if the diameter of the hook eye wire is a lot larger than the
nylon diameter, ( as on some streamers when using fine tippet! )
then the improved clinch is not a good knot!

I use the improved clinch more or less exclusively for attaching most
of my flies and have done for over 45 years, but only with appropriate
wire and nylon diameters. I have never had a problem with it. If you
are not happy with it, there are some good alternatives, like this
one;

http://www.pechetruite.com/Noeuds/Davy-knot.htm

Fishing streamers on fine tippet requires special tactics, a different
knot to the clinch, and the right rod, as otherwise the tippet will
break regularly, often at the knot itself. It is often better to use
a loop to attach streamers. Like this one;

http://www.pechetruite.com/Noeuds/Duncan-knot.htm

The hackle stem on non-genetic hackles is much thicker and usually
quite buoyant. The hackle fibres themselves have more barbules as well
which are fairly buoyant. This varies a lot though.

TL
MC

Yeah sure, the tactics and gear are described for using a weighted
woolly bugger here;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...s/tactics.html

For other streamers which imitate specific baitfish for instance, you
will need other leaders and tactics, but the rod and head described
will still work well.

There was a guy on ROFF for a long time, Peter Charles, who
specialised in streamers, and he also had some good patterns for
trout. He had a nice website as well, but I can´t find it any more, I
think he must have cancelled it. I have not seen him on ROFF for a
long time either but I have not been following ROFF very closely for
quite some time. If you do a search on his name, you might find his
fly patterns? I really don´t know. I did copy them, but it is a long
time ago now, and I honestly don´t know where to look for them. They
will be on some backup disc somewhere. I mainly use my own fly
patterns nowadays anyway.

I corresponded with Gary LaFontaine for quite a while, and I have some
of his specialist patterns if you are interested, but these are mainly
for still water fishing.

Nowadays, clousers are a fairly universal pattern, as are deceivers,
and you can find instructions on them here from their inventors;

http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/bobclouser/

http://www.flyfisherman.com/ftb/lkdeceiver/

Of course there are thousands of variations.

If you try to use light tippet on a heavy rod, you will get a lot of
breaks and other problems. Not only the heavy head is important, but
the light rod as well. I would advise the Duncan loop for attaching
most streamers, because it allows the fly to move more naturally, and
because it obviates any hinging which will otherwise occur at the
knot, and weaken it. This still applies even if you use heavier rods
and lines.

I wont post this stuff to ROFF any more, because it merely gets a few
of the idiots up in arms. They only use standard gear don´t know
anything at all about specialist rigs, and they will just give you a
load of old bull**** about using DT lines or something. Most of the
really good anglers have left the group, or only contribute very
rarely indeed. Those left are mainly bull****ters who don´t know much
at all. There are still some nuggets of wisdom to be garnered
occasionally but they are very few and far between, and most of the
fishing content, such as it is, is really only of use to beginners.
You would be better advised to search the various websites for info on
specialist tactics. There are a lot of very good ones now.

Regards and tight lines!

Mike