OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L"
wrote:

I stopped on the same bike
ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats
around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is
available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I
might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't
really speak ... ah life's little adventures G

FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito
(kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. I like cabrito and lamb,
not so much goat and mutton. Both can be had in a number of
cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most
readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.)
restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might
find it there. Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican
cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until
you know what's what... IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled,
BBQ) is best anyway.

TC,
R

Larry L wrote:

"Kevin Vang" wrote


"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1




Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into
rock, back then ...





I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.




I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.
His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on
dogs ... makes ya wonder )





I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.



I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch
work to get a good delivery

... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't
natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness
... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that
naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom
and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful




Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself.



the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one,
NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics'
for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both
people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have
bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training
ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game
( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was
$250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ...
these people are serious about winning )

Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested
in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ...
"most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the
hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours ..
it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer )




at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?

i must lack the genetic stuff that appreciates the huge dollars involved
in the "bloodline" commerce in dogs. my relationship with canines has
always been at the most basic and common level...essentially their
servant and (hopefully) friend. i've observed the intensity and
competitiveness of field trial and hunt training...always with electric
shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. i know folks that have
spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of
them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....

jeff

"jeff miller" wrote




at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?


not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and
believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time
spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw,
there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason
some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities
NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can
make the big leagues ( see below )




...always with electric
shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me.

I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled
trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on
the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands.
At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that
I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog
showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty
crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I
know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training,"
repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it,
never seen or heard of it out here

My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to
control any animal, if he first learns to control himself."

i know folks that have
spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them
has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....


I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve
greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value
comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league
baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like
tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us,
values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big
league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs
of winning can often be higher than the value of that win.


FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and
never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most
field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners

In article ,
says...
We'll have to have that Dakota style Cast & Blast Clave one of
these autumns, the 9wt and 20 gauge Clave !


The sooner the better! We have had 5 really mild winters in a
row, and the pheasant populations are crazy high right now. I
don't know how long it will last, because one severe blizzard,
or Congress ending CRP, could end it all.

Ducks are hurting because of the drought, but geese are doing
fine, and the pike fishing has been great lately. In fact, I
believe I'll have to check if the ice is started to thaw on
some local lakes tomorrow...

Kevin

--
Kevin Vang
reply to kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

Larry L wrote:

"jeff miller" wrote



at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?



not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and
believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time
spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw,
there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason
some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities
NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can
make the big leagues ( see below )





...always with electric

shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me.


I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled
trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on
the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands.
At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that
I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog
showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty
crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I
know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training,"
repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it,
never seen or heard of it out here

My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to
control any animal, if he first learns to control himself."

i know folks that have

spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them
has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....



I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve
greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value
comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league
baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like
tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us,
values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big
league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs
of winning can often be higher than the value of that win.


FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and
never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most
field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners




well said larry.

didn't intend any of my comment to be critical of you or your efforts as
a trainer, just my observations of some things here in nc...and i've no
experience as a trainer. my dogs train me - a circumstance we both
approve of and accept.

i've seen dogs yelp and almost turn a flip from the electric collar
training...it troubled me a lot when i witnessed it. i've also seen the
wounds inflicted by the salt shots. i'm not a hunter, or a trainer, so
my sensitivity is probably out of the norm with regard to dog training
methods. still, it bothered me a lot.

my best friend owned two fabulous hunting dogs that he also
field-trialed. he was very tough with the dog...ear pinches, ear bites,
mean loud voice, electric collar (said he used the salt in shotgun
method, but i never saw him do it)... but, he genuinely loved the dog.
when the dog died, he cried. he still speaks reverently of smoke and
rush. it remains an oddity i can't reconcile. i can't imagine doing
anything intentionally that hurt my dog.

the $1500 comment was directed mainly at those who develop a commercial
venture in dogs dependent on field trial or hunting blood-lines and
those who buy them. a 250k or 100k dog is clearly a "different" breed,
as are their owners.

jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the
troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this
year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps
we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the
slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g)

"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing
anything intentionally that hurt my dog.




As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G

Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G



Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit.
They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the
troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this
year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps
we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the
slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g)

I'll be out there all of June, but will be back home by July. I'll leave plenty
of fish for you. ;-)
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

On Apr 17, 12:18*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:49:07 GMT, "Larry L"

wrote:
I'm several lessons into the program ... and there is no certainty of my
success,
BUT,
this is the most powerful approach to learning language I've ever seen. *I'm
progressing and having fun doing so.

I'd appreciate it if you kept me posted on your progress. *I deal with
Spanish speaking folks two days a week, and although most of them
speak English, it would be nice to communicate in their language.

Dave

I think some of the best learning language stuff was developed in the
1950's and '60s, but lost out to some of the bizarre notions of the
American Language Association, which lives for perpetuating the self-
defeating folk belief that a nation of immigrants is inherently bad at
languages. Anyway that's my 15 second summary of a favorite rant of
mine.

Without a doubt, the single best book for learning Spanish I have
found in 45 years of "learning" Spanish, is still in print after being
written 56 years ago . . .

Margarita Madrigal's, "Madrigal's Magic Key to Spanish," Broadway
Books/New York, 26th paperback printing in 2001, with (Get This)
"original illustrations by Andy Warhol."

You will learn more in the first hundred pages that most learn in
years. Madrigal gives you an instant vocabulary by showing how more
than half of English is readily usable as Spanish via slight
modification of cogantes and near-cognates, thanks to the Norman
Conquest. So that gives you a heap of adjectives, adverbs, and nouns.

Then she gives you a mnemonic key to verb conjugation. That deal with
verb endings denoting person(s), and tense is hard for folk starting
with English. Anyway Madrigal is amazingly effective, And cheap ($13).

Dave

On Apr 18, 9:27*am, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L"

wrote:
I stopped on the same bike
ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats
around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is
available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I
might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't
really speak ... ah life's little adventures G

FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito
(kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. *I like cabrito and lamb,
not so much goat and mutton. *Both can be had in a number of
cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most
readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.)
restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might
find it there. *Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican
cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until
you know what's what... *IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled,
BBQ) is best anyway.

TC,
R

I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in
the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised
on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the
written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the
bone.

Dave