No fish

In message 200909191912368930-dplacourse@aolcom, David LaCourse
writes
On 2009-09-19 15:52:39 -0400, Todd said:

Bill Grey wrote:
In message , Todd writes
Bill Grey wrote:

While you guys are still chewing the fat, I went fishing yesterday
only the second time this year. It was to a small put and take
fishery fishing for stocked Rainbow trout.
Fishing with a stiff NE wind blowing from behind me, I managed to
bag 4 Rainbows the largest was just over 4 lbs and the total bag
weighed 15 lbs.
They were caught on a small (by our standards Montana nymph.)
Awesome! What size and style of hook did you use?
I'm not sure - it was a fly that's been in my box for a few years.
Probably size 12 . I'm not sure how this relates to your idea of hook
sizes.
We tend to tie flies on larger hooks when fishing for stocked
Rainbows.
Actually, hook and shank. My "theory" is that a trout will stray
farther from his feeding lie based on the food value of what he is
chasing. In other words, if the fly is bigger, you don't have to be
such a good shot. If the fly is smaller, say a midge, you have to
hit the trout on the nose to get him to eat it. My "theory".

Nonsense. When I nymph on my home waters in Maine, I usually use
nymphs in the 18 - 24 range, and I am VERY successful with wild salmon
and brook trout. There is one caddis pupua I use that is a size 16,
but that is as large as I would go. Rarely have I seen anyone using
something as large as a size 12 except if they are mimicing a dry March
Brown or a stonefly. Roll over some rocks at the stream you fish and
look at how small the nymphs are. Most are smaller than 16s. My
theory is give them something small they've never seen. I have about 5
personally invented flies, none of them larger than 18, and they all work.

I sight fished a big rainbow on the Big Horn one time. I used big
flies, small flies, and very tiny flies. I was determined to catch
this fish. I watched him move aside to avoid the fly. *Finally* I put
on something that he wanted - a size 20 tied by a friend, and the big
rainbow took it. There was nothing different in the drift - he just
wanted that particular lure.

The same thing happened in Labrador with one of my grandsons, only this
time it was a dry fly. We both saw the fish finning in an eddy and
drifted dry flies past it. It ignored every fly - two from my grandson
and two from me, all size 16. We must have each made four or five
casts with each fly. I gave my grandson a size 18 black Goddard Caddis
on the first cast, we saw the fish move up and away to take the lure.
It was a five pound brook trout.

Dave



In an attempt to clarify, even justify, the hook size I used, let me
refer you to:-

http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/Content...zing_chart.pdf

then on page 5 see size 10 Sproat hook. That seems to compare well with
my fly.

It must be remembered that my fly is a lure not a representation of a
natural. I'm not sue if there is difference in classification of hook
sizes between the USA and the UK ?
--
Bill Grey

On 2009-09-19 20:52:58 -0400, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-09-19 15:52:39 -0400, Todd said:

Actually, hook and shank. My "theory" is that a trout will stray
farther from his feeding lie based on the food value of what he is
chasing. In other words, if the fly is bigger, you don't have to be
such a good shot. If the fly is smaller, say a midge, you have to
hit the trout on the nose to get him to eat it. My "theory".


Nonsense. When I nymph on my home waters in Maine, I usually use
nymphs in the 18 - 24 range, and I am VERY successful with wild salmon
and brook trout. There is one caddis pupua I use that is a size 16,
but that is as large as I would go. Rarely have I seen anyone using
something as large as a size 12 except if they are mimicing a dry March
Brown or a stonefly. Roll over some rocks at the stream you fish and
look at how small the nymphs are. Most are smaller than 16s. My
theory is give them something small they've never seen. I have about 5
personally invented flies, none of them larger than 18, and they all
work.

I think Tom has a point with his "theory" about larger flies in one
situation: trout opportunistically feeding on terrestrials or whatever
else comes along on the surface. I run into this often when fishing for
cutthroat in relatively infertile freestone rivers like the Middle Fork
of the Salmon in Idaho and similar places. The fish hold deep in
gin-clear water. A Big Ugly is usually the best choice to bring them
up. I especially like the Madam X, Turk's Tarantula, and big
stimulators. Rarely use hoppers, per se.

Yeah, it's called "match the hatch". Of course they are not going
to take a size 22 hopper or Madam X (if such a lure could be tied). No
argument there. I am speaking of consistently taking trout, big trout,
on very small ties. When I switched from 12, 14, 16 nymphs to 18 - 24,
my catch improved. Our friend Bruiser got me started with very tiny
nmphs when he gave me a fly he named in my honor, The Pirate. An easy
tie - just thread, but the size of he hook - 22- is the key. He gave
me an entire box of very small ties and when I used them on the Rapid,
I was astounded at their success. Over the years I have experimented
with soft hackle on very small nymphs and that has improved my
connections.

I've been using Harry's Killer Caddis dry. I have it in size 12 - 16,
and have a friend who ties it in size 18 (the body material comes from
(I think) Harrop. Anyhooo, I have noticed a big difference between
large and small hooks in this tie. There is, of course, that long
argument about color and size. I think size is more important.

In my experience trout usually feed opportunistically and erratically,
but often enough they're keyed into a rhythmic feeding pattern on a
small but numerous bug, whether a dry or a nymph. Sometimes, on a
fertile stream, there will be multiple simultaneous "hatches" but the
trout are focused exclusively on one bug -- I think because they have a
energy-conserving, rhythmic feeding pattern. In that situation you'd
better have the right fly and the right presentation.

I agree. They are very opportunistic, especially on the Rapid. That
is why I said that when I give them a fly they have never seen, they go
crazy for it. Something as simple as a head with orange thread rather
than the normal brown is enough to make them key on that fly. This
river is also famous for its streamer fishing, and just the opposite is
true. If you fish streamers, the bigger the better. A size 2, 10X, is
the norm. I believe that Carrie Stevens discovered this on these
waters many years ago.

I just reread what Todd and Bill were talking about and noticed
something that I omitted. They are speaking of stocked trout, while my
experience is the same as yours, wild trout (sorry T-bone). I rarely
fish for stockies, but when I do, the more traditional sizes work best.
A number of years ago I showed a bait fisherman how to quickly take
his limit. I gathered a handful of small pepples (pellets) and threw
them in the water. I told the guy to cast him worm into the middle of
the pepple pattern. He did and immediately caught a 12 inch rainbow.
Surprise, surprise. The hatchery fish were used to being fed with
pellets thrown (like my pepples). I erred in showing this to this guy
because the next time I fished this water (White's Pond in Concord,
MA), two bait fishermen were doing the pepple trick. I didn't tell the
first guy that it works only after the stocking truck has deposited its
cargo.

Dave

In message 2009092008451350878-dplacourse@aolcom, David LaCourse
writes
I just reread what Todd and Bill were talking about and noticed
something that I omitted. They are speaking of stocked trout, while my
experience is the same as yours, wild trout (sorry T-bone). I rarely
fish for stockies, but when I do, the more traditional sizes work best.
A number of years ago I showed a bait fisherman how to quickly take his
limit. I gathered a handful of small pepples (pellets) and threw them
in the water.

Very true! Fish that are stocked into a river or pond are conditioned
to having food pellets thrown at them and the respond violently.

To give you three quite separate examples:-

1) while fishing at a stocked reservoir using a worm set up, I
noticed a trout take the worm almost as soon as it hit the water. It
responded to the splash.


2 ) While walking Geraint (my Labrador) along the local river bank, I
noticed newly stocked trout rising quite freely. I tossed a small dog
food pellet at the rise and I got a rise for each pellet I threw in.
Some kids wanted to try tying a pellet sized "fly" . Quite possible with
deer hair!

3 ) On another occasion A fisherman was seen chucking a handful of clay
dust (small particles) into a reservoir - It was noticed that he was the
only one who was catching.

The above deception doesn't work with wild trout, or trout that have
been stocked and have lived for some time in the water.



--
Bill Grey

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-09-19 20:52:58 -0400, rw said:


I think Tom has a point with his "theory" about larger flies in one
situation: trout opportunistically feeding on terrestrials or whatever
else comes along on the surface. I run into this often when fishing
for cutthroat in relatively infertile freestone rivers like the Middle
Fork of the Salmon in Idaho and similar places. The fish hold deep in
gin-clear water. A Big Ugly is usually the best choice to bring them
up. I especially like the Madam X, Turk's Tarantula, and big
stimulators. Rarely use hoppers, per se.


Yeah, it's called "match the hatch". Of course they are not going
to take a size 22 hopper or Madam X (if such a lure could be tied). No
argument there.

I guess we have different ideas about what "match the hatch" means. A
Turk's Tarantula doesn't match any hatch I'm familiar with.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

David LaCourse wrote:

Yeah, it's called "match the hatch".

I am not "matching the hatch". I am matching the "drift".
Whole different mind set. I match what floats by their
nose, which is what is normally growing in the and
not going through some kind of metamorphosis.

Of course they are not going
to take a size 22 hopper or Madam X (if such a lure could be tied). No
argument there. I am speaking of consistently taking trout, big trout,
on very small ties. When I switched from 12, 14, 16 nymphs to 18 - 24,
my catch improved. Our friend Bruiser got me started with very tiny
nmphs when he gave me a fly he named in my honor, The Pirate. An easy
tie - just thread, but the size of he hook - 22- is the key. He gave me
an entire box of very small ties and when I used them on the Rapid, I
was astounded at their success. Over the years I have experimented with
soft hackle on very small nymphs and that has improved my connections.

I've been using Harry's Killer Caddis dry. I have it in size 12 - 16,
and have a friend who ties it in size 18 (the body material comes from
(I think) Harrop. Anyhooo, I have noticed a big difference between
large and small hooks in this tie. There is, of course, that long
argument about color and size. I think size is more important.

Awesome feedback. Thank you!


In my experience trout usually feed opportunistically and erratically,
but often enough they're keyed into a rhythmic feeding pattern on a
small but numerous bug, whether a dry or a nymph. Sometimes, on a
fertile stream, there will be multiple simultaneous "hatches" but the
trout are focused exclusively on one bug -- I think because they have
a energy-conserving, rhythmic feeding pattern. In that situation you'd
better have the right fly and the right presentation.

I agree. They are very opportunistic, especially on the Rapid. That is
why I said that when I give them a fly they have never seen, they go
crazy for it. Something as simple as a head with orange thread rather
than the normal brown is enough to make them key on that fly. This
river is also famous for its streamer fishing, and just the opposite is
true. If you fish streamers, the bigger the better. A size 2, 10X, is
the norm. I believe that Carrie Stevens discovered this on these waters
many years ago.

Speaking of the "drift", we have these three inch Stones in my river.
Black in the water and dark red in the air. Look like a huge flying
red ant in the air. Scare the hell out of you when they land on
the back of your neck. Anyway, the argument among the "hatchers"
at the fly shop was that they should match the full size three
inch adult. So they tied me a stone with a #6 hook. The trout
attached them from the side like a they would a minnow. Lots of
action, no hook ups. As I am the only "drifter", I finally
convinced them that it took these stones three years to grow to
that size. So, finally got my #12's. And, I have caught zillions of
fish on them. The idea was to match what is living in the
water on a day by day basis, not what is hatching once or
twice a year.

A tip from a "drifter": do not forget the white nymph.
Nymphs shuck their exoskeletons several times a year as
they grow. Until they readjust, they are cream colored.
If I can not get my trout to pay attention, I switch to
white or cream color. More yummy, less crunch.



I just reread what Todd and Bill were talking about and noticed
something that I omitted. They are speaking of stocked trout, while my
experience is the same as yours, wild trout (sorry T-bone). I rarely
fish for stockies, but when I do, the more traditional sizes work best.
A number of years ago I showed a bait fisherman how to quickly take his
limit. I gathered a handful of small pepples (pellets) and threw them
in the water. I told the guy to cast him worm into the middle of the
pepple pattern. He did and immediately caught a 12 inch rainbow.
Surprise, surprise. The hatchery fish were used to being fed with
pellets thrown (like my pepples). I erred in showing this to this guy
because the next time I fished this water (White's Pond in Concord, MA),
two bait fishermen were doing the pepple trick. I didn't tell the first
guy that it works only after the stocking truck has deposited its cargo.

Dave

My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

-T

Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.

--
Ken Fortenberry

In message , Ken Fortenberry
writes
Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.


Quite so Ken! One local club tends to stock with brown up to 3 lbs in
weight. To me that is ridiculous. For the kids that catch them then
it's all good fun but ecologically the river just can't sustain such
creatures when you consider the few indigenous fish that survive don't
grow to more than about 12 inches - if they're lucky.
--
Bill Grey

On 2009-09-20 12:59:00 -0400, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2009-09-19 20:52:58 -0400, rw said:


I think Tom has a point with his "theory" about larger flies in one
situation: trout opportunistically feeding on terrestrials or whatever
else comes along on the surface. I run into this often when fishing for
cutthroat in relatively infertile freestone rivers like the Middle Fork
of the Salmon in Idaho and similar places. The fish hold deep in
gin-clear water. A Big Ugly is usually the best choice to bring them
up. I especially like the Madam X, Turk's Tarantula, and big
stimulators. Rarely use hoppers, per se.


Yeah, it's called "match the hatch". Of course they are not going
to take a size 22 hopper or Madam X (if such a lure could be tied). No
argument there.

I guess we have different ideas about what "match the hatch" means. A
Turk's Tarantula doesn't match any hatch I'm familiar with.

I was speaking more about the hopper flies. The only time I've used a
hopper or a Madam X was out west. I took some ugly carp out of the
lake above the Bighorn. It was lots of fun but not very sporting.

On 2009-09-20 13:06:35 -0400, Todd said:

David LaCourse wrote:

Yeah, it's called "match the hatch".

I am not "matching the hatch". I am matching the "drift".
Whole different mind set. I match what floats by their
nose, which is what is normally growing in the and
not going through some kind of metamorphosis.

I wasn't refering to your post. I was answer Steve.


Of course they are not going to take a size 22 hopper or Madam X (if
such a lure could be tied). No argument there. I am speaking of
consistently taking trout, big trout, on very small ties. When I
switched from 12, 14, 16 nymphs to 18 - 24, my catch improved. Our
friend Bruiser got me started with very tiny nmphs when he gave me a
fly he named in my honor, The Pirate. An easy tie - just thread, but
the size of he hook - 22- is the key. He gave me an entire box of very
small ties and when I used them on the Rapid, I was astounded at their
success. Over the years I have experimented with soft hackle on very
small nymphs and that has improved my connections.

I've been using Harry's Killer Caddis dry. I have it in size 12 - 16,
and have a friend who ties it in size 18 (the body material comes from
(I think) Harrop. Anyhooo, I have noticed a big difference between
large and small hooks in this tie. There is, of course, that long
argument about color and size. I think size is more important.

Awesome feedback. Thank you!


In my experience trout usually feed opportunistically and erratically,
but often enough they're keyed into a rhythmic feeding pattern on a
small but numerous bug, whether a dry or a nymph. Sometimes, on a
fertile stream, there will be multiple simultaneous "hatches" but the
trout are focused exclusively on one bug -- I think because they have a
energy-conserving, rhythmic feeding pattern. In that situation you'd
better have the right fly and the right presentation.

I agree. They are very opportunistic, especially on the Rapid. That
is why I said that when I give them a fly they have never seen, they go
crazy for it. Something as simple as a head with orange thread rather
than the normal brown is enough to make them key on that fly. This
river is also famous for its streamer fishing, and just the opposite is
true. If you fish streamers, the bigger the better. A size 2, 10X, is
the norm. I believe that Carrie Stevens discovered this on these
waters many years ago.

Speaking of the "drift", we have these three inch Stones in my river.
Black in the water and dark red in the air. Look like a huge flying
red ant in the air. Scare the hell out of you when they land on
the back of your neck. Anyway, the argument among the "hatchers"
at the fly shop was that they should match the full size three
inch adult. So they tied me a stone with a #6 hook. The trout
attached them from the side like a they would a minnow. Lots of
action, no hook ups. As I am the only "drifter", I finally
convinced them that it took these stones three years to grow to
that size. So, finally got my #12's. And, I have caught zillions of
fish on them. The idea was to match what is living in the
water on a day by day basis, not what is hatching once or
twice a year.
d;o) You haven't been fishing very long, have you. There is a hatch
almost every day. I just walked down to the river and there are bwo
and tan egg laying caddis all over the place. A few fish rising, and
some takes on emergers. After dinner I will tie on a size 20 soft
hackle PT and catch fish. When the light is almost gone I will switch
to a dry tan caddis, size 16

A tip from a "drifter": do not forget the white nymph.
Nymphs shuck their exoskeletons several times a year as
they grow. Until they readjust, they are cream colored.
If I can not get my trout to pay attention, I switch to
white or cream color. More yummy, less crunch.

(??????)



I just reread what Todd and Bill were talking about and noticed
something that I omitted. They are speaking of stocked trout, while my
experience is the same as yours, wild trout (sorry T-bone). I rarely
fish for stockies, but when I do, the more traditional sizes work best.
A number of years ago I showed a bait fisherman how to quickly take his
limit. I gathered a handful of small pepples (pellets) and threw them
in the water. I told the guy to cast him worm into the middle of the
pepple pattern. He did and immediately caught a 12 inch rainbow.
Surprise, surprise. The hatchery fish were used to being fed with
pellets thrown (like my pepples). I erred in showing this to this guy
because the next time I fished this water (White's Pond in Concord,
MA), two bait fishermen were doing the pepple trick. I didn't tell the
first guy that it works only after the stocking truck has deposited its
cargo.

Dave

My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

-T

I don't fish for stocked trout, and no, I am not an eliteist.

Dave

On 2009-09-20 15:29:32 -0400, Bill Grey said:

In message , Ken Fortenberry
writes
Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.


Quite so Ken! One local club tends to stock with brown up to 3 lbs in
weight. To me that is ridiculous. For the kids that catch them then
it's all good fun but ecologically the river just can't sustain such
creatures when you consider the few indigenous fish that survive don't
grow to more than about 12 inches - if they're lucky.

They used to do that when I was a kid in Springfield, Mass. They'd
stock big rainbows, what they called "strippers", meaning that they
were used only to strip the eggs from them. They usually put them in
"kid's" water. I can remember catching a couple on spin tackle when I
was 10 or 12.

Dave