Torture?

Nah. A former military friend sent me this. Very intersting. His
name is Paul:

Â*
Great numbers of our own service members endured this treatment as part
of SERE ( survival, evasion, resistance and escape) training prior to
deployment to Viet Nam in the 60’s, myself included. This is obviously
not a pleasant experience, but in no way constitutes torture. The only
permanent effect it has on you, is you are damn sure you don’t want to
repeat.
Â*
Â*
Â*
Â*
Â*
Very enlightening, you have to watch this!!!!
Â*
This is awesome!Â* Watch it and understand why we have the best military
in the world.Â* There is no permanent damage done but the response is
immediate.Â* A much more humane and effective way to obtain critical
intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. Sure beats
electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers,
whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues,
drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other ways the
muslims use.
Â*
Â*
Â*
Playboy.com journalist Mike Guy underwent waterboarding by a trained
member of the U.S. military in the site's new Lab Rat feature.
Â*
Guy bet that he could endure 15 seconds of the interrogation technique
used by the Bush administration on al Qaeda chief Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah..
Â*
Watch the results: http://content1. clipmarks. com/content/ 7E8ADC46-
F3DD-4D6F- B184-3A07CF501B7 C
Â*
Â*

On 2010-02-22 15:31:26 -0500, David LaCourse said:

Nah. A former military friend sent me this. Very intersting. His
name is Paul:

Â*
Great numbers of our own service members endured this treatment as part
of SERE ( survival, evasion, resistance and escape) training prior to
deployment to Viet Nam in the 60’s, myself included. This is
obviously not a pleasant experience, but in no way constitutes torture.
The only permanent effect it has on you, is you are damn sure you
don’t want to repeat.
Â*
Â*
Â*
Â*
Â*
Very enlightening, you have to watch this!!!!
Â*
This is awesome!Â* Watch it and understand why we have the best
military in the world.Â* There is no permanent damage done but the
response is immediate.Â* A much more humane and effective way to obtain
critical intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. Sure
beats electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers,
whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues,
drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other ways the
muslims use.
Â*
Â*
Â*
Playboy.com journalist Mike Guy underwent waterboarding by a trained
member of the U.S. military in the site's new Lab Rat feature.
Â*
Guy bet that he could endure 15 seconds of the interrogation technique
used by the Bush administration on al Qaeda chief Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah..
Â*
Watch the results: http://content1. clipmarks. com/content/ 7E8ADC46-
F3DD-4D6F- B184-3A07CF501B7 C
Â*
Â*

What's with all the As? Here is the link:

http://content1.clipmarks.com/conten...4-3A07CF501B7C

Dave

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.

Perhaps. But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? Would you use it to save one of
yours? There's no pain. No lasting physical impairment. No blood.
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation.
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? Simple question, Steve. Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. Would you?

I sure as hell would. I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Dave

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.


Perhaps. But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? Would you use it to save one of
yours? There's no pain. No lasting physical impairment. No blood.
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation.
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? Simple question, Steve. Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. Would you?

I sure as hell would. I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Dave

That's an absurd argument. You could use it to justify ANYTHING, not
just waterboarding.

By the way, General Petaeus, Colin Powell, and John McCain agree with me
that waterboarding is torture and violates American values.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2010-02-22 17:52:17 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 16:59:33 -0500, rw said:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.


Perhaps. But would YOU use it if someone kidnapped your child and
wouldn't tell you where she was? Would you use it to save one of
yours? There's no pain. No lasting physical impairment. No blood.
Our own soldiers experienced it to help them survive interregation.
Would you beat, hit, bite the man that knew where your child was being
kept? Simple question, Steve. Would you sacrifice your child or would
you waterboard the perp? Remember -- no pain, no blood, no loss of
limbs, teeth, ears, or eyes. Just a simple procedure that lasts less
that 15 seconds. Would you?

I sure as hell would. I'd use it to save YOU, never mind my own
children or loved ones. Hell, I'd use it to save any human being, and
Wolfgang.

Dave

That's an absurd argument. You could use it to justify ANYTHING, not
just waterboarding.

By the way, General Petaeus, Colin Powell, and John McCain agree with
me that waterboarding is torture and violates American values.

I know who is for it and who is against it. I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? That is not logical, Steve.

Dave

David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2010-02-22 18:34:02 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:

I know who is for it and who is against it. I am neither endorsing nor
condemning it. The question is absurd, of course, but if you needed
information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it? You
threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your wife and
child some nasty names. That is a physical act leaving someone with
pain, and very possibly blood or even death. You would physically harm
someone over an insult but would not waterboard them to save a loved
one's life? That is not logical, Steve.

Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.

NOT if it saves lives, Steve. Not if it saves lives. If you are for
physical violence, then waterboarding is a walk in the park.

Dave

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:59:33 -0700, rw wrote:

After WWII the US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes and
sentenced them to very harsh penalties for waterboarding. It's torture.

No, the US didn't convict anyone of "waterboarding," (only) and IAC, what the
Japanese did in that case, along with other acts that were unquestionably
"torture," was nothing like the waterboarding as done in SERE, to KSM, etc. You
can debate whether the waterboarding as done to KSM, etc. is torture or not, but
it simply is not the same as the acts of "torture," some using water, to which
you refer. For example, one of the acts in those cases involved forcing water
down the prisoner's throats or nostrils, to the point of severe distention, and
then literally jumping on the torso of the bloated, bound prisoner.

The "big" case that has been cited is United States of America v. Hideji
Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata, and Takeo Kita and if you are truly
interested in the facts, I'd suggest reading the actual specifications, etc.,
rather than either Paul Begala's OR Limpdick's rehash of them.

IAC, these reporters, ala "Lab Rat" and Hitchens, that **** around with
waterboarding are both silly and meaningless as evidence as to whether
waterboarding constitutes "torture." As I've said before, depending on the
legal definition of "torture" one chooses to use, giving a Muslim a ham sandwich
could be torture (and theoretically, it could be legally torture that one would
be bound to commit - for example, if the Muslim were literally starving to
death, and only non-halal/haraam food was available, but the provider took any
pleasure in the Muslim's dilemma (a somewhat natural human reaction at a hostile
enemy), forcing him to eat the food would be torture, but failing to provide it
would likewise be a crime.

And as an aside, if one wishes to utilize the codified laws that _might_
indicate that waterboarding is "torture," (AFAIK, there are no "serious"
applicable international law(s) that specify specific acts - i.e.,
"waterboarding" - as "torture") then one must concede that Saddam unquestionably
had WMDs.

HTH,
R

David LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-02-22 18:34:02 -0500, rw said:

David LaCourse wrote:


I know who is for it and who is against it. I am neither endorsing
nor condemning it. The question is absurd, of course, but if you
needed information RIGHT NOW to save a loved one, would you use it?
You threatened to kick Fortenberry's ass when the jerk called your
wife and child some nasty names. That is a physical act leaving
someone with pain, and very possibly blood or even death. You would
physically harm someone over an insult but would not waterboard them
to save a loved one's life? That is not logical, Steve.


Actions that are appropriate for an extremely ****ed off person and an
institutional justice/military/intelligence system are two entirely
different things.


NOT if it saves lives, Steve. Not if it saves lives. If you are for
physical violence, then waterboarding is a walk in the park.

OK, let's suppose that you were put in the situation that the only way
you could save your wife and child's lives were to insert red-hot
needles into their abductor's eyeballs. First the left, and then, if he
didn't talk, the right. Would you do it? I would.

Now, assuming you would, would you then assert that inserting red-hot
needles into eyeballs is a justified method of interrogating enemy
combatants?

Have you ever read the rat scene in Orwell's novel 1984? Is that torture?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.