PING - any random new Dodge diesel owners that happen to be around, "tuners"

I'll not mention any names in this post, but I was speaking with the manager of
one of the large tuner makers about one of our units, and we got to shooting the
****. I asked him about the new Dodges tuners and he told me this:

The new Dodges have a "counter" that "clicks up one" every time _any_ device is
connected to the OBD-II/computer connection connector, whether it is a tuner or
a simple one-way scanner. IOW, if you have a "code scanner"/OBD-II scanner, and
hook it up, it'll advance the counter. If you then take it to a Dodge dealer,
they can tell via the Dodge database how many times an "authorized" connection
has been made, and if the count is higher than what the database indicates is
right, they assume it was a tuner until you can convince them it wasn't (for
example, you produce a receipt showing that "Bob's Auto Repair" checked a
"SES"/"Check Engine" light). They cannot tell what was connected, only that a
connection was made.

I make no claims that the above is correct - I'm simply relaying what I was
told.

He further told me - AND FOR THE RECORD, I'm not giving advice, legal or
otherwise - again, I'm merely relaying what I was told - that the "Magnuson-Moss
Warranty Act" creates rights that you as a consumer have with regard to
aftermarket additions such as tuners - you'll need to do your own research into
what that might mean for you.

IAC, the bottom line, at least for me, is 1) that I'd be pretty ****ed - like
"see you court fothermucker" ****ed - if I hooked up an OBD-II scanner to
determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to fix an
issue when there was no dealership handy and used it to void the warranty, and
2) I'd weigh all the factors before I connected _anything_, tuner or mere
scanner, to a truck under warranty.

As an aside, I will say that the _only_ two commonly-available "tuners" of which
I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips or
Hypertech. And yes, I'm aware of Bullydog and some others. The former sentence
stands.

And last but not least, while I'll not disclose the person or the company "in
public," if anyone wants the details, drop me an email.

TC,
R

On Mar 5, 11:13*am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

On Mar 5, 10:13*am, wrote:


The new Dodges have a "counter" that "clicks up one" every time _any_ device is


My dealer ( service manager) told me they "can tell" if after market
chips have been installed but didn't mention anything about "how" ....
I'll be sure to keep all receipts if I'm forced to have a non-dealer
check my system while still under warranty ... thanks for the heads-up

On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:55:28 -0800 (PST), Jonathan Cook
wrote:

On Mar 5, 11:13*am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

Be ready to be surprised, then. We are currently having an issue with a Nissan
Maxima. In short (pardon the pun - actually, it isn't a pun yet, but...),
Nissan had a design flaw in which the IACV (idle air control valve) goes south
and shorts out (SEE! SEE! I told you a pun was coming...) a circuit in the ECM
(the "computer"). If the thing is 15 seconds out of warranty, Nissan's
(well-documented) attitude is "tough ****" (this particular vehicle is now in
need of its third $1500.00 repair, with the first done under warranty). The
last time Nissan told us, as they have told all/most other similarly-situated
people, "the warranty is up - tough ****" (in our case, at the second failure,
the warranty was over the time limit by 3 months, but under the mileage limit by
about 10K). This time, the first excuse they gave was because we had allegedly
installed an after-market ECM. When it was pointed out by the dealership that
not only had _no one_ installed such a thing, there was no such thing as an
"aftermarket ECM." They then claimed that, "Oops, we didn't mean ECM, we meant
IACV..." It was then pointed out to Nissan that, again, there is no such thing.
The IACV, while in a Borg-Warner package/box, was the exact same
Hitachi-manufactured-and-supplied part. When asked why, since the supposed
issue of "aftermarket parts" was eliminated, they weren't handling the issue,
the response thus far has been "OK, you got there - it's out of warranty - tough
****."

As to what manufacturers might risk, two words - "Toyota" and "throttle"...
I would generally agree with Jeremy Clarkson - "GM is a health and benefits
company who happens to make ****ty cars, too..." Frankly, I cannot think of a
major manufacturer who I'd say truly gives a **** about customers post-sale. I
understand that on one hand, customers can and do make ridiculous demands and
the litigious nature, esp. in the US, has made most corps, er, skittish. OTOH,
some level of reasonable addressing of legit (and documented) customer
satisfaction might have kept those makers practicing it in a little better
health and with a better overall "general public" reputation. I'd just say
that, IME, Ford is the most responsive of the makers (FE, the 6.0 ****up) and
while it may be merely coincidence, it's the healthiest of the biggies
("healthy" being relative).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

We use 'em and like 'em, and if I had such a truck, I'd get one esp. if I towed
much. Pardon the latest pun, but as always, YMMV. And I'd not get rid of such
a truck until it simply could not be kept going in anything close to a
cost-effective manner - the 7.3 TD/PS series (with the 99-03 being the best of
the best, IMO, and the earlier, original being still pretty darned good, with
your "mid-model" being damned good) was the best engine - gas or diesel -
overall ever produced and offered insofar as pickups and smaller "commercial"
trucks (F450s, 550s, etc.), but the Feds, in their typical half-assed fashion,
mortally wounded it with silly-assed emissions laws and the Ford let the whole
"MORE HORSEPOWER!!!" nonsense bury it and the shovel, too.

TC,
R

Jon.

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

***********
Stuck the Bullydog PMT on my '04 and it made a huge difference in
performance and mileage.

ymmv, (no pun intended or something like that)
JT

On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:41:48 -0800, "JT" wrote:


"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

***********
Stuck the Bullydog PMT on my '04 and it made a huge difference in
performance and mileage.

If you mean that it made a "huge" _increase_ in _both_, I'd like to see some
numbers. OTOH, if you mean you can now get a fourth-gear scratch from a
standing start and are amazed that you get almost 2 miles to the gallon, well,
nevermind, I believe you...

Two things - 1) there is a fixed and finite amount of "energy"/BTUs/whatever
term you wish to use in a conversational sense in a given gallon of diesel (or
gasoline) and the driveline getting the engine HP and torque to the ground
consists of the same physical/mechanical components (granted, the controls upon
that driveline can be changed), and, 2) You don't like our standard service?
Well, we has got faster, cheaper, and better...pick ya out two and don't whine
about the results if you pick wrong...

ymmv, (no pun intended or something like that)

Well, exactly like that, IMO...

TC,
R
JT

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:41:48 -0800, "JT"
wrote:


"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void
my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips
or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

***********
Stuck the Bullydog PMT on my '04 and it made a huge difference in
performance and mileage.

If you mean that it made a "huge" _increase_ in _both_, I'd like to see
some
numbers. OTOH, if you mean you can now get a fourth-gear scratch from a
standing start and are amazed that you get almost 2 miles to the gallon,
well,
nevermind, I believe you...

Two things - 1) there is a fixed and finite amount of
"energy"/BTUs/whatever
term you wish to use in a conversational sense in a given gallon of diesel
(or
gasoline) and the driveline getting the engine HP and torque to the ground
consists of the same physical/mechanical components (granted, the controls
upon
that driveline can be changed), and, 2) You don't like our standard
service?
Well, we has got faster, cheaper, and better...pick ya out two and don't
whine
about the results if you pick wrong...

ymmv, (no pun intended or something like that)

Well, exactly like that, IMO...

TC,
R
JT

Love the pulling power and I gained 3 solid mpg, better if I baby it.... To
me that's huge, when I can add an additional 90 miles per tank... I can go
almost 700 miles on a tank. Not that there is any reason to go that far on a
tank, however it makes for less fill-ups...

With the PMT, I added the tru flow air intake, (just the life time air
cleaner and silencer removal) and a aero turbine muffler, I'm guessing
those helped with the equation...

There again, ymmv,

JT

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:55:28 -0800 (PST), Jonathan Cook

wrote:

On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void
my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

Be ready to be surprised, then. We are currently having an issue with a
Nissan
Maxima. In short (pardon the pun - actually, it isn't a pun yet, but...),
Nissan had a design flaw in which the IACV (idle air control valve) goes
south
and shorts out (SEE! SEE! I told you a pun was coming...) a circuit in
the ECM
(the "computer"). If the thing is 15 seconds out of warranty, Nissan's
(well-documented) attitude is "tough ****" (this particular vehicle is now
in
need of its third $1500.00 repair, with the first done under warranty).
The
last time Nissan told us, as they have told all/most other
similarly-situated
people, "the warranty is up - tough ****" (in our case, at the second
failure,
the warranty was over the time limit by 3 months, but under the mileage
limit by
about 10K). This time, the first excuse they gave was because we had
allegedly
installed an after-market ECM. When it was pointed out by the dealership
that
not only had _no one_ installed such a thing, there was no such thing as
an
"aftermarket ECM." They then claimed that, "Oops, we didn't mean ECM, we
meant
IACV..." It was then pointed out to Nissan that, again, there is no such
thing.
The IACV, while in a Borg-Warner package/box, was the exact same
Hitachi-manufactured-and-supplied part. When asked why, since the
supposed
issue of "aftermarket parts" was eliminated, they weren't handling the
issue,
the response thus far has been "OK, you got there - it's out of warranty -
tough
****."

As to what manufacturers might risk, two words - "Toyota" and
"throttle"...
I would generally agree with Jeremy Clarkson - "GM is a health and
benefits
company who happens to make ****ty cars, too..." Frankly, I cannot think
of a
major manufacturer who I'd say truly gives a **** about customers
post-sale. I
understand that on one hand, customers can and do make ridiculous demands
and
the litigious nature, esp. in the US, has made most corps, er, skittish.
OTOH,
some level of reasonable addressing of legit (and documented) customer
satisfaction might have kept those makers practicing it in a little better
health and with a better overall "general public" reputation. I'd just
say
that, IME, Ford is the most responsive of the makers (FE, the 6.0 ****up)
and
while it may be merely coincidence, it's the healthiest of the biggies
("healthy" being relative).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips
or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

We use 'em and like 'em, and if I had such a truck, I'd get one esp. if I
towed
much. Pardon the latest pun, but as always, YMMV. And I'd not get rid of
such
a truck until it simply could not be kept going in anything close to a
cost-effective manner - the 7.3 TD/PS series (with the 99-03 being the
best of
the best, IMO, and the earlier, original being still pretty darned good,
with
your "mid-model" being damned good) was the best engine - gas or diesel -
overall ever produced and offered insofar as pickups and smaller
"commercial"
trucks (F450s, 550s, etc.), but the Feds, in their typical half-assed
fashion,
mortally wounded it with silly-assed emissions laws and the Ford let the
whole
"MORE HORSEPOWER!!!" nonsense bury it and the shovel, too.

TC,
R

Jon.

Jon,
I had a similar experience here in Australia with a Holden Ute. After
getting no joy from the dealership where I purchased the vehicle, I found
out thru the traps that each dealership has differing attitude with
warrantee jobs... both with the public and the car company.

I found that the dealer I bought the car from had a poor relationship with
Holden thus many warrantee jobs were rejected by Holden themselves. By going
to another dealer (who didn't sell me the Ute) which did have a good
relationship with Holden got the job done with no fuss.

Being at the right place at the right time I got to see the Holden Rep in
charge of warrantees at this other dealer and after a quick chat he happily
agreed to rebuild the motor. While nothing was said "on the record" it was
clear that that Holden was prepared to come to the party... but not thru the
other dealer.

Not sure how it works in the USA, is it an option to get a second opinion
from another dealer?

Good luck.

Rob.

On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:01:52 -0800, "JT" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:41:48 -0800, "JT"
wrote:


"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
...
On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void
my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips
or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

***********
Stuck the Bullydog PMT on my '04 and it made a huge difference in
performance and mileage.

If you mean that it made a "huge" _increase_ in _both_, I'd like to see
some
numbers. OTOH, if you mean you can now get a fourth-gear scratch from a
standing start and are amazed that you get almost 2 miles to the gallon,
well,
nevermind, I believe you...

Two things - 1) there is a fixed and finite amount of
"energy"/BTUs/whatever
term you wish to use in a conversational sense in a given gallon of diesel
(or
gasoline) and the driveline getting the engine HP and torque to the ground
consists of the same physical/mechanical components (granted, the controls
upon
that driveline can be changed), and, 2) You don't like our standard
service?
Well, we has got faster, cheaper, and better...pick ya out two and don't
whine
about the results if you pick wrong...

ymmv, (no pun intended or something like that)

Well, exactly like that, IMO...

TC,
R
JT

Love the pulling power and I gained 3 solid mpg, better if I baby it.... To
me that's huge, when I can add an additional 90 miles per tank... I can go
almost 700 miles on a tank. Not that there is any reason to go that far on a
tank, however it makes for less fill-ups...

I'm not trying to be a wiseass (well, not primarily anyhow...), and it's good
that you "love the pulling power," but that's not a number - any idea of what,
if any, the increase in HP and torque might be? IME, a 7.3, esp. the later TDs,
had a gracious plenty of "pulling power" without anyone's tuner, and again, IME,
the only "good" reason for a tuner is to "down tune" when not towing for mileage
and to "pinpoint tune" for "better than generic" when towing. I see no reason
to "tune up" for non-towing driving around. That's one reason I'm not a fan of
the Bullydogs (and others out there like 'em) - they allow what I'd consider
"over-stressing" the drivetrain for no purpose other than "MAX HORSEPOWER!!!" I
can well understand why makers take a hard line on that type of tuning,
warranty-wise.

IME, esp. with a diesel, getting long life/long use between rebuilds, "MAX
PERFORMANCE!!!" and absolute minimum fuel usage just aren't reasonably possible.
An analogy that I like to use because it's pretty common and familiar down here
is shrimp boats versus big sportfishers - they can have the same basic engine
(block), but the shrimp boat (or trawler-hulled yacht/Biloxi lugger) is tuned to
"just enough" and the sporter is tuned to "balls to the wall." The shrimp boat
engine lasts, well, nearly forever and the sporter is on the hard every
coupla-few years for a RB/OH. Plus the shrimper burns _much_ less fuel,
proportionally, than the sporter, esp. if sporter is constantly at WOT and the
others are running in the sweet spot. I do realize that there are other issues
with boats (sync'ing or not with duals, etc.), but the basic principles remain -
you can't have your speed and not eat fuel, too.

With the PMT, I added the tru flow air intake, (just the life time air
cleaner and silencer removal) and a aero turbine muffler, I'm guessing
those helped with the equation...

I'd guess that, too... IAC, I'd be _VERY_ careful about the air your engine
swallows - that's probably among the most-overlooked, yet easy to address,
issues with diesels. IMO and IME, I'd rather have a micron filter for the oil
and use disposable air filters, but hey, YMMV. And speaking of oil, we run
Lucas in our engines, diesel and gas, and that helps, too (no benefit to me if
you do, just a satisfied user).

There again, ymmv,

Yep.

TC,
R

JT

On Mar 6, 6:37*am, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:01:52 -0800, "JT" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:41:48 -0800, "JT"
wrote:

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
....
On Mar 5, 11:13 am, wrote:

determine why the SES had lit up and Dodge used that to attempt to void
my
warranty and I'd be even more ****ed if a non-Dodge shop had to do so to

I wouldn't doubt that they'd have such counters, but I'd be awfully
surprised, especially in this economic climate, if any dealership or
manufacturer would risk alienating their customers with such a policy
(even if not enforced).

I am currently aware that I'd hook to any vehicle of mine is Superchips
or
Hypertech.

Are those things worth it? I have a 96/97 F250 diesel and have
wondered if any of those aftermarket thingies would be worth a try...

Jon.

***********
Stuck the Bullydog PMT on my '04 and it made a huge difference in
performance and mileage.

If you mean that it made a "huge" _increase_ in _both_, I'd like to see
some
numbers. *OTOH, if you mean you can now get a fourth-gear scratch from a
standing start and are amazed that you get almost 2 miles to the gallon,
well,
nevermind, I believe you...

Two things - 1) there is a fixed and finite amount of
"energy"/BTUs/whatever
term you wish to use in a conversational sense in a given gallon of diesel
(or
gasoline) and the driveline getting the engine HP and torque to the ground
consists of the same physical/mechanical components (granted, the controls
upon
that driveline can be changed), and, 2) You don't like our standard
service?
Well, we has got faster, cheaper, and better...pick ya out two and don't
whine
about the results if you pick wrong...

ymmv, (no pun intended or something like that)

Well, exactly like that, IMO...

TC,
R
JT

Love the pulling power and I gained 3 solid mpg, better if I baby it.... To
me that's huge, when I can add an additional 90 miles per tank... I can go
almost 700 miles on a tank. Not that there is any reason to go that far on a
tank, however it makes for less fill-ups...

I'm not trying to be a wiseass (well, not primarily anyhow...), and it's good
that you "love the pulling power," but that's not a number - any idea of what,
if any, the increase in HP and torque might be? *IME, a 7.3, esp. the later TDs,
had a gracious plenty of "pulling power" without anyone's tuner, and again, IME,
the only "good" reason for a tuner is to "down tune" when not towing for mileage
and to "pinpoint tune" for "better than generic" when towing. *I see no reason
to "tune up" for non-towing driving around. *That's one reason I'm not a fan of
the Bullydogs (and others out there like 'em) - they allow what I'd consider
"over-stressing" the drivetrain for no purpose other than "MAX HORSEPOWER!!!" *I
can well understand why makers take a hard line on that type of tuning,
warranty-wise.

IME, esp. with a diesel, getting long life/long use between rebuilds, "MAX
PERFORMANCE!!!" and absolute minimum fuel usage just aren't reasonably possible.
An analogy that I like to use because it's pretty common and familiar down here
is shrimp boats versus big sportfishers - they can have the same basic engine
(block), but the shrimp boat (or trawler-hulled yacht/Biloxi lugger) is tuned to
"just enough" and the sporter is tuned to "balls to the wall." *The shrimp boat
engine lasts, well, nearly forever and the sporter is on the hard every
coupla-few years for a RB/OH. *Plus the shrimper burns _much_ less fuel,
proportionally, than the sporter, esp. if sporter is constantly at WOT and the
others are running in the sweet spot. *I do realize that there are other issues
with boats (sync'ing or not with duals, etc.), but the basic principles remain -
you can't have your speed and not eat fuel, too.



With the PMT, I added the tru flow air intake, (just the life time air
cleaner and silencer removal) *and a aero turbine muffler, I'm guessing
those helped with the equation...

I'd guess that, too... *IAC, I'd be _VERY_ careful about the air your engine
swallows - that's probably among the most-overlooked, yet easy to address,
issues with diesels. *IMO and IME, I'd rather have a micron filter for the oil
and use disposable air filters, but hey, YMMV. *And speaking of oil, we run
Lucas in our engines, diesel and gas, and that helps, too (no benefit to me if
you do, just a satisfied user).



There again, ymmv,

Yep.

TC,
R



JT



From the foregoing, you seem like the guy to ask about the oil build
up problem I have heard about if you don't pay attention after adding
a K-N (or is it a K-E ?) cold air filter. Don't know the details, but
it has something to do with gumming up the sail switch and resulting
in an overheat problem, if you don't clean it regularly and properly.

Do you know anything that might help me understand what the talk is
about?

Thanks

oz