How Things Get Done

On Sep 12, 8:22*am, "Bill Grey" wrote:


Interesting and well written narrative.

Thank you.

I'm glad I got to the end before you
ran out of fictitious names.

I suspect that none of the people participating in this drama would
object to being named (hell, some of them have a fairly prodigious
public presence) but I don't know some of them well enough to be
certain.

When are you going to write about when Freda and Mark went fly-fishing :-)

Bill

Not much of that going on in my neighborhood these days. I used to
write about it some when I was doing more of it. Who knows, maybe
some day I'll vacate the big city and go back to where a boy can fish
through the dining room window.

giles

On Sep 12, 9:12*am, Frank Reid © 2010 wrote:


Just gotta get to the right folks.

Amen.

Very cool. *You going to help with the program?
Frank Reid

Probably not much in any direct way. That would be trespassing on
grad-student turf. It would probably also taint results.

However, as you probably noticed when you were there, the chestnuts
are not isolated. They are interspersed among all the other trees.
We will go on as before with all of those, and this will necessarily
have some effect on the chestnuts. This is, of course, understood by
the researchers; it comes with the turf.

giles

On Sep 12, 9:54*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"Giles" wrote in message

...







Things get done by people who:

1. Know what needs to be done.
2. Have an inclination/reason to get it done.
3. Can command the necessary resources (money/labor/space/materials/
etc.) to get it done.
4. Have the requisite experience/expertise/knowledge/tools to get it
done.
5. Have the time to get it done.
6. Can stay focused long enough and/or often enough to get it done.
7. Have the requisite authority/permission to get it done.....or do it
anyway.

It has been my good fortune to know a good few such people off and on
throughout my life. *They have been a constant source of inspiration
and admiration. *I have also been fortunate in actually being such a
person (admittedly by sheer happenstance and on a modest scale) on
rare occasions.

thanks for sharing your self-congratulation, once again.

I'd be interested in learning what it is I'm being congratulated for.

As one person, or
more, is fond of saying, YMMV.

Hm.....stroking the diminutive member.

introductions and CV had been exchanged

hoo, boy. That should have been good.

Not very. But when asked, it is considered polite to answer.

Dan looks at me and says (and I quote), "O.k., why are we here?"

the same thought occurred to this reader, at least.

And doubtless to others as well. It even occurred to some among us
who were there.

Hypovirulence. *There is a virus.....well, actually a tribe of
viruses.....that ingest and otherwise thrive on the Cryphonectria
fungus, the villain in the American chestnut drama. *There are many
strains of Cryphonectria, so it is a good thing that there are also
many strains of the virus that attacks and weakens them. *But it DOES
make life complicated.

a discussion of Cryphonectria, and why it has become the villain would have
been informative.....

No, it would have been any more informative. It would simply have
been information on a topic other than that I wished to write
about. If you want to inform the folks here about Cryphonectria
from your own vast store of knowledge, please be my guest. And
Cryphonectria is not a villain. Cryphonectria is a fungus. Fungi
don't have a great deal more intent (evil or otherwise) or intellect
than snots.

you might have chosen to enlighten us with that, as
opposed to a description of consuming breakfast,

Or I might have chosen to do any of innumerable other things. But
those weren't things I wanted to do.

but I suppose, that's my
scientific training getting the best of me......

No, that has nothing whatsoever to do with scientific training.....as
any reader with even a bit of it surely understands. That's just your
surly childish petulence shining through.

And it happens like this......

ok, I've slogged this far, we'll get to the point now, I figure....

Funny thing is, you KNOW what an absolute ass you are making of
yourself here.

*Then they get down to business. *It takes all
of four minutes. *Dan hangs up the phone.

Approval must await the next application and funding cycle.....a
matter of a few months. *This means exactly nothing. *The deal is
done. *The funding will appear. *The work will go forward. *The world
has turned.

so, that was it?

Yep. That was it.

They got a grant project approved(at least on a verbal
basis)?

Uh huh.

Do you have any idea how often this happens, every day, in every
field of science?

As a matter of fact, yes, I do have a pretty good idea.

Further, can you comprehend how such verbal agreements
often de-materialize into bureaucratic backlogs?

I've seen that happen. Comprehend? Well, at some level or other, I
suppose. Why don't you go ahead and make it crystal clear for all
those fans who can't get enough of the REAL dope?

I hope for the best, and
all, for this project(hell, I am alarmed as the next guy over the fate of
American Chestnuts, as well as the fate of much native flora and fauna),

Alarmed about the chestnuts? Huh? What? Has something happened to
the chestnuts?

but
to tell the truth, nothing is really 'gotten done' until the project
generates data, and points the clear path toward progress addressing the
problem.

Well, that actually depends on what it is that one wants to 'get
done'. If one wants to get a project started, then something has
"really 'gotten done'" at the inception of the project. There are
people who make a pretty good living 'doing' no more than that.

As you are no doubt well aware, this can happen through both
positive or negative findings,

Ooh! Ooh! That's science talk.....right? I'm right, ain't I? Yeah,
I'm right. Go on and tell me I'm righty.

but simply glad handing after an initial
planning session doesn't speak, in any way, to accomplishment.

Depends on what one wants to accomplish. Look at your efforts here,
for example. Some doubtless find them fairly reeking of
accomplishment. Others may differ.

Frank Reid
provided a salient example of accomplishment, as illustrated by the final
results.

Ah yes, results! Who needs beginnings when you can skip right to the
results?

g.
who suspects he will somehow get no less busy.

doing what, is always the part that's unclear,

What would you like to know?

but it's good to know we can
count on a long-winded essay describing your pivitol role in modern
biological advances.

Well, ONE of us has alluded to his "scientific training" here.

Now, was there any discussion of WHY the virus class in
question is not already present, given the presence of a preferred media of
reproduction?

I didn't hear any such discussion (there were eight of us, eating,
drinking, walking, crawling, etc., in ever shifting groups), but there
may have been. Not likely though, and not for long. Everyone there
was already pretty much up to speed on the current best guesses
regarding that issue. This is attributable, in large part I think, to
the fact that none of the participants relies much on ROFF for
scientific revelation. But then, most of those present probably don't
know that you are here.

If so, I didn't read it in your piece.

Well now you have. All ya gotta do is ask the right questions.

And if not, was there
any discussion as to potential deliterious effects of introducing same to
the ecosystem involved?

The virus(es) involved are dedicated parasites. The only deleterious
effects arise from the fact that the virus cannot live without its
host. Thus, if you want the virus, you MUST have cryphonectria for it
to feed on. These people are plant pathologists.....they ain't much
interested in healthy trees. But then, as a highly trained and
dedicated man of science, you already knew that.

Hell, Wolfgang, it seems like a potentially
interesting and beneficial program of study about to be embarked upon

Well, as a beneficiary of scientific training, you would undoubtedly
know more about that than I.

......I
just wonder what makes it in any way different from the numerous examples of
well-intended tinkering with nature that has had provable detrimental
effects for our environment.

Really? Do you? You ain't real bright for a trained scientist.

I also wonder why you choose to not name the
research principals.

See my response to Bill Grey.

Is this supposed to be top-secret?

Of course. That's why I published it here.

It would seem like
something unnecessary, and, at the same time sort of puzzling.......

It may well seem unnecesary. But the truth of the matter is that
research in pretty much any field is highly competitive in these days
of shrinking budgets. Many of those involved are in fact secretive
about their work, for good or ill. And no, I can think of no reason
to doubt that you find any or all of this puzzling.

Come on, lad, you can do better.

You really think so? Well. Gosh.

A little less about the importance of Wolfgang,

You saw something about the importance of Wolfgang in that? Good god,
you have gotten stupid in the last couple of years.

and a bit more about the actual issue at hand might have been nice.

O.k., hows about you tell me what the issue at hand is.....and I'll
see what I can do.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tom

Idiot.

g.

On Sep 12, 4:31*pm, Injun Joe wrote:
On Sep 12, 10:54*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote: "Giles" wrote in message

...

always -at least most of the time ---enjoy reading your { Wolfgangs stuff } *but got a little confused by this one

did you have coffee with your breakfast

Yes.

did you catch any fish ?

No.

how fast do you type ?

Not very.

Joe the Elder

giles.

On 9/12/2010 12:07 AM, Giles wrote:


Things get done by people who:

1. Know what needs to be done.
2. Have an inclination/reason to get it done.
3. Can command the necessary resources (money/labor/space/materials/
etc.) to get it done.
4. Have the requisite experience/expertise/knowledge/tools to get it
done.
5. Have the time to get it done.
6. Can stay focused long enough and/or often enough to get it done.
7. Have the requisite authority/permission to get it done.....or do it
anyway.

It has been my good fortune to know a good few such people off and on
throughout my life. They have been a constant source of inspiration
and admiration. I have also been fortunate in actually being such a
person (admittedly by sheer happenstance and on a modest scale) on
rare occasions. The latter, I think, gives one an even greater
appreciation of those who do it regularly and with evident ease.

In the last year and a half, it has been my great good fortune to meet
a few folks who routinely get things done, and done well, with
appallingly evident ease.

And it happened again.....in spades.....these last three days.

It started last weekend when Larry reminded me of the impending visit
of three heavy hitters from a major university in Michigan who were
scheduled to visit the tree farm. Larry graciously refrained from
telling me that three bodies and three beds would preclude yet another
invasion by the erstwhile tree farmer from Milwaukee. He said I could
stay at the condo in La Crosse. I refrained from expressing my horror
at the suggestion of sleeping in a condo in La Crosse. I said I would
tent it at the tree farm. He was horrified at the thought of anyone
sleeping out in the....the.....well.....under the....um.....stars and
****.....with all the animals and dew and bugs and.....etc. I
suggested that, having survived similar experiences on numerous
occasions in the past, the odds were even (or perhaps even better)
that I could do so again.

The proposition was never tested, the experiment was never conducted.
The heavens opened up on Wednesday evening.....angel pee
everywhere.....in short, it started raining early in the evening. I
slept on the floor.....with the dog. Though small and of dubious
aroma, she is warm and affectionate. But that is beside the point, I
suppose.

By then, the biologists had arrived, a late supper of steak and baked
potatoes, with a side salad and lots of good beer (about as good as
boy could come up with fast and easy at 9:00 p.m.), had been consumed,
introductions and CV had been exchanged, something vaguely resembling
a plan for the morning had been sketched, refined, and ratified, and
much storytelling had transpired, replete with inside jokes from all
and sundry which left the ins grinning or roaring with laughter and
the outs nodding, smiling, and utterly bemused. Oh yeah, and a lot of
biology and internal departmental politics and personalities flew in
smoking hot streaks back and forth across the room. A boy is tempted
to say that it was all he could do to keep up......but he
didn't.....quite. Pretty close, though. Same tools (mostly), same
techniques (pretty much), similar protocols (more or less), same
reagents (here and there).....WAY different critters.....Dan (not his
real name), a plant pathologist, tells the story of a friend who
originally trained as a botanist and then moved to human physiology.
You cannot imagine how EASY! human DNA is, the friend informs him.
Larry and I busily knit our brows. The others (Tony and
Justin.....not their real names.....from Michigan.....and
Angela.....not her real name.....from the local university) smile
broadly and nod wisely.

Hm.....

Larry leaves. Yeah, it's his place.....but there's only three beds.
He's staying in the condo tonight.

Dan looks at me and says (and I quote), "O.k., why are we here?"

Uh oh.

Ummmmm........................................

Ummmmm........................................

Angela comes to the rescue. She explains, in broad terms, the
research project that her grad students Cassie and Astrid (not their
real names) are engaged in, what they hope to do in the future, what
Larry would like to see come of it, and what we all hope to gain from
the current visitation. I (rather wisely, I think) nod vigorously,
smile broadly, and strive manfully not to think of other places I'd
rather be just at this moment. Discussion ensues. A provisional plan
is agreed upon. We will have breakfast in the morning.....and then
wait for Larry.....if he has not already arrived. I nod, slowly and
deliberately, as though not entirely convinced but willing enough to
abide by the apparent consensus in lieu of a better idea.
In due course, morning arrives. Breakfast is designed, executed, and
consumed by committee. It is surprisingly good. Larry, having not
yet arrived, does not get a vote. However, arriving before the
consummation is completed, he is allotted a full share and tucks in
with gusto. Everybody is happy. Senta (her real name), has been
visibly and unmistakably jubilant every waking moment since my arrival
some 36 hours earlier. This would be an unequivocal annoyance in
anyone other than a coal black schnauzer pup (the aforementioned small
dog). Even so, it is starting to wear thin.

Beth and Eric (their real names) arrive. Beth and Eric own a small
forestry business. Not surprisingly, in the coulee country, their
business sense is tempered by a rather bewildering amalgam of New Age,
Hippie, Astrological, Biodynamic, Holistic, Nativist, Herbal,
Pragmatic sensibilities. Beth and Eric are also old friends and
sometime part time employees of Larry's. They have at least as large
a stake in the current proceedings as anyone. They also have more
experience on the ground in this locale than anyone but Larry
himself. Beth, as Larry often proclaims, does the work of two men.
Eric has bigass digger machines and a portable bandsaw mill (well, a
borrowed mill, but it cuts just the same).

We have, not just a quorum......we got the whole shebang!

Dan says....."So?"

Beth (or Angela.....I forget) says, let's go for a walk up to the
orchard (the orchard comprises the newest plantings, from two to four
or five years ago, and contains the trees of greatest interest to the
visiting dignitaries.....for reasons that space does not permit me to
go into here.) I say why don't we just all pile into the Gators and
ride up? I see several nodding heads. And then I see Beth and Angela
looking at me in a manner that is indescribable but with which every
man who has ever known woman knows and dreads. We have the women
outnumbered 3:1 (well, actually, 6:2......but, close enough). We all
agree that it is a very nice day for a walk.

For the next four hours we wander, in ever changing aggregates of
humans and one small dog, over the eastern half of Larry's 80 acres,
peering, kneeling, squatting, discussing, peeling, paring, poking,
prying, questioning, answering, pondering, debating, lying prone on
bellies and backs, rubbing, smelling, photographing, remembering,
philosophizing, planning, collecting, discarding, theorizing,
suggesting, digging, and wondering.

By the time we head back downhill, everybody, including (MAINLY
including) Larry, knows what we all knew before any of us arrived and
the adventure began. The chestnuts are doomed.....period.
Well.....ALMOST period. There's hypovirulence.

Hypovirulence. There is a virus.....well, actually a tribe of
viruses.....that ingest and otherwise thrive on the Cryphonectria
fungus, the villain in the American chestnut drama. There are many
strains of Cryphonectria, so it is a good thing that there are also
many strains of the virus that attacks and weakens them. But it DOES
make life complicated. As luck would have it, Larry's setup, diverse
plantings, loving attention to the trees, and record keeping make his
holding a textbook example of the perfect laboratory for the proposed
experiment.

Angela, Cassie and Astrid get the ready made lab to do with as they
will. Beth, Eric, Larry, Becky and I are relieved of the
responsibility of caring for the chestnuts (in fact, the policy will
be strictly hands off for us.....except for clearing out the
unmistakably dead). We have that much more time to devote to the
butternuts (also doomed.....but that a whole nother long story.....for
another time), walnuts, hazels and sundry other minor characters.
Justin gets much needed samples and data for his PhD. dissertation on
the evolution of Cryphonectria, Tony, ditto for his statistical
analyses. Dan? Well, what Dan gets out of the deal is a bit more
complicated.....and subtle. Dan is on the Castanea A-list. Dan is
pretty much at the top of the Castanea A-list. There really isn't
much more for Dan to get out of any of this. Dan just gets to make it
happen.

And it happens like this......

When we get back to the house there is much discussion about how to
get the project rolling, who is going to fund it, how the funding will
be managed, who will do the management, and a very LONG list of other
considerations. The bottom line is that this isn't something that a
bunch of people can make happen just by agreeing that it needs to
happen. Fortunately, similar situations have been coming up for a
long long time, and there are well developed institutions and
procedures in place for dealing with them. Universities have
organizational and administrative tools at their disposal for just
such situations. So does the federal government. While we discuss
details, ask questions, raise objections, and generally chew on a host
of considerations, Larry quietly dials a phone number.

A moment later the house falls quiet when Larry says hello Max (not
his real name) who has worked for the Forest Service (USDA) for 35 or
a hundred fifty or something years, do you know Dan? Yeah, says Max.
Larry explains that a foundation is to be set up to conduct a years
long intensive Cryphonectria management experiment on his property and
that some startup funds will be required. He hands the phone to Dan,
who reminds Max of a few long ago shared adventures of one sort or
another. They laugh. Then they get down to business. It takes all
of four minutes. Dan hangs up the phone.

Approval must await the next application and funding cycle.....a
matter of a few months. This means exactly nothing. The deal is
done. The funding will appear. The work will go forward. The world
has turned.

So much for academic detachment from real world phenomena. So much
for governmental bureaucratic inertia.

That's how **** gets done.

Kind of amazing.

Kind of scary.

g.
who suspects he will somehow get no less busy.

drama and fun! damn. that was a fantastic read.

jeff (nuts to chest...)

On 9/12/2010 10:54 AM, Tom Littleton wrote:
wrote in message
...


Things get done by people who:

1. Know what needs to be done.
2. Have an inclination/reason to get it done.
3. Can command the necessary resources (money/labor/space/materials/
etc.) to get it done.
4. Have the requisite experience/expertise/knowledge/tools to get it
done.
5. Have the time to get it done.
6. Can stay focused long enough and/or often enough to get it done.
7. Have the requisite authority/permission to get it done.....or do it
anyway.

It has been my good fortune to know a good few such people off and on
throughout my life. They have been a constant source of inspiration
and admiration. I have also been fortunate in actually being such a
person (admittedly by sheer happenstance and on a modest scale) on
rare occasions.

thanks for sharing your self-congratulation, once again. As one person, or
more, is fond of saying, YMMV.

introductions and CV had been exchanged

hoo, boy. That should have been good.

Dan looks at me and says (and I quote), "O.k., why are we here?"

the same thought occurred to this reader, at least.

Hypovirulence. There is a virus.....well, actually a tribe of
viruses.....that ingest and otherwise thrive on the Cryphonectria
fungus, the villain in the American chestnut drama. There are many
strains of Cryphonectria, so it is a good thing that there are also
many strains of the virus that attacks and weakens them. But it DOES
make life complicated.

a discussion of Cryphonectria, and why it has become the villain would have
been informative.....you might have chosen to enlighten us with that, as
opposed to a description of consuming breakfast, but I suppose, that's my
scientific training getting the best of me......

And it happens like this......

ok, I've slogged this far, we'll get to the point now, I figure....

Then they get down to business. It takes all
of four minutes. Dan hangs up the phone.

Approval must await the next application and funding cycle.....a
matter of a few months. This means exactly nothing. The deal is
done. The funding will appear. The work will go forward. The world
has turned.

so, that was it? They got a grant project approved(at least on a verbal
basis)? Do you have any idea how often this happens, every day, in every
field of science? Further, can you comprehend how such verbal agreements
often de-materialize into bureaucratic backlogs? I hope for the best, and
all, for this project(hell, I am alarmed as the next guy over the fate of
American Chestnuts, as well as the fate of much native flora and fauna), but
to tell the truth, nothing is really 'gotten done' until the project
generates data, and points the clear path toward progress addressing the
problem. As you are no doubt well aware, this can happen through both
positive or negative findings, but simply glad handing after an initial
planning session doesn't speak, in any way, to accomplishment. Frank Reid
provided a salient example of accomplishment, as illustrated by the final
results.

g.
who suspects he will somehow get no less busy.

doing what, is always the part that's unclear, but it's good to know we can
count on a long-winded essay describing your pivitol role in modern
biological advances. Now, was there any discussion of WHY the virus class in
question is not already present, given the presence of a preferred media of
reproduction? If so, I didn't read it in your piece. And if not, was there
any discussion as to potential deliterious effects of introducing same to
the ecosystem involved? Hell, Wolfgang, it seems like a potentially
interesting and beneficial program of study about to be embarked upon......I
just wonder what makes it in any way different from the numerous examples of
well-intended tinkering with nature that has had provable detrimental
effects for our environment. I also wonder why you choose to not name the
research principals. Is this supposed to be top-secret? It would seem like
something unnecessary, and, at the same time sort of puzzling.......Come on,
lad, you can do better. A little less about the importance of Wolfgang, and
a bit more about the actual issue at hand might have been nice.

Tom



tom, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... enjoy a good smoke.

jeff

"jeff" wrote in message
...
tom, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... enjoy a good smoke.

jeff

each to their own. Your 'good smoke' is my vision of yet another entry in a
bad prose contest. 500 turgid words to say, "I fancy myself as successful, I
can sort of keep up with PhD's in any field, and we all ate breakfast"
isn't my view of a good read. As I said, your mileage may, and clearly does,
vary. I wasn't impressed. Which isn't to say that I haven't read and valued
some items over the years which Wolfie has written. This just wasn't one of
them.....And, since Wolfie feels compelled to tell others, with assorted
snide, dismissive comments, when he is unimpressed, I have little or no
hesitation doing so in return.
Tom

On 2010-09-12 00:07:13 -0400, Giles said:

Things get done by people who:

1. Know what needs to be done.
2. Have an inclination/reason to get it done.
3. Can command the necessary resources (money/labor/space/materials/
etc.) to get it done.
4. Have the requisite experience/expertise/knowledge/tools to get it
done.
5. Have the time to get it done.
6. Can stay focused long enough and/or often enough to get it done.
7. Have the requisite authority/permission to get it done.....or do it
anyway.

It has been my good fortune to know a good few such people off and on
throughout my life.

Yep, it has been my good fortune to marry such a person on and off
throughout life. Joanne is all of that and more, although she is never
self-congratulatory. Thanks for reminding me.

Dave

On Sep 14, 4:22*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message

...

tom, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... enjoy a good smoke.

jeff

each to their own. Your 'good smoke' is my vision of yet another entry in a
bad prose contest. 500 turgid words to say, "I fancy myself as successful, I
can sort of *keep up with PhD's in any field, and we all ate breakfast"
isn't my view of a good read. As I said, your mileage may, and clearly does,
vary. I wasn't impressed. Which isn't to say that I haven't read and valued
some items over the years which Wolfie has written. This just wasn't one of
them.....And, since Wolfie feels compelled to tell others, with assorted
snide, dismissive comments, when he is unimpressed, I have little or no
hesitation doing so in return.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tom

I like the "bad prose" part; it demonstrates that you haven't quite
completely lost your mind yet.....but it's not too late for that. I
think you should unbunch your undies and conduct a thorough scientific
evaluation of your motives.

g.

On Sep 14, 5:45*am, D. LaCourse wrote:
On 2010-09-12 00:07:13 -0400, Giles said:

Things get done by people who:

1. Know what needs to be done.
2. Have an inclination/reason to get it done.
3. Can command the necessary resources (money/labor/space/materials/
etc.) to get it done.
4. Have the requisite experience/expertise/knowledge/tools to get it
done.
5. Have the time to get it done.
6. Can stay focused long enough and/or often enough to get it done.
7. Have the requisite authority/permission to get it done.....or do it
anyway.

It has been my good fortune to know a good few such people off and on
throughout my life.

Yep, it has been my good fortune to marry such a person on and off
throughout life.

You keep a minister and a divorce lawyer on retainer?

Joanne is all of that and more, although she is never
self-congratulatory.

Well then, congratulations to both of you.

Thanks for reminding me.

De nada.

Dave

Idiot.

g.