Yesterday Afternoon

"Jeff Miller" wrote...
Wolfgang wrote:

Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17? unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there - anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes, entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.

What about me?

btw, oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.

How do you feel about a slightly used matching Penns hat and t-shirt set?
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:25:38 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote:


however, we were talking effective or
useful communication among a group of fishermen, few of whom are
entomologists.


Just open your fly box and have someone point out which fly to use.

works for me...but, i'd much prefer they open theirs and give me the fly
to use. works for indian joe.... do you see a pattern here?

jeff (a/k/a, oblomov)

Tim J. wrote:

"Jeff Miller" wrote...

Wolfgang wrote:

Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17? unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there - anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes, entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.


What about me?

y'all's one of them "whatever's", aintcha?



btw, oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.


How do you feel about a slightly used matching Penns hat and t-shirt set?

excellent... um, so long as the shirt aint got nipple slots yet...

jeff

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:10:25 -0400, Jeff Miller
wrote:

works for me...but, i'd much prefer they open theirs and give me the fly
to use. works for indian joe....

Yeah, but I didn't get that far in his charm school. g I'm thankful
if they'll just show me which of mine is closest to the correct fly.
--
Charlie...

Well some of my replies to others in this thread have already admitted that
I somewhat agree ...discriptions stand the best chance of wide understanding

but .. I'm bored and have some time to kill, so,
I say "horse pucky" G

To talk about things we need to name them .... you can call the big scary
bug a "Michigan Caddis" a "big yellow humpy" a "Hexagenia"
or a "big scary bug" All those will work for some people.

The very fact that you got from Hexagenia to "big yellow humpy" proves that
the Latin word DID convey information from my typing fingers to your
scanning eyes and you DO have enough "entomology" knowledge about that bug
to use the Latin.

I have no way of knowing whether you would have gotten from "Michigan
Caddis" to "big yellow humpy" but the idea that you have to look at a bugs
gonads under a microscope to consistently call it by the same name is far
from accurate, and further from what I'm saying.

I have been in Polly Rosborough's house when he "described" Hexagenia as
"Big Floppy Yellow May" .... I have been in Craig Matthews shop when he
told a customer that asked what fly to use that a PMD was a "big yellow
mayfly"
..... Hexs and PMDs are at least as close as #8 woolybuggers and #18
Griffiths Gnats G ( which ain't really that different, are they ?)

As I read your post my phone rang and the phone is near a book shelf with FF
books on it ..... I was drawn to notice that at least 90% of those books
have some Latin in them that the authors must have felt helped them
communicate.

I grabbed the first one I noticed that seemed the LEAST "high
tech... " How to Fish from Top to Bottom" by Sid Gordon (1955 )and randomly
( no **** now, I kid you not, it was random and I nearly fell over, myself )
opened it to page 319

I quote

"Dry Flies
(Ephemeroptera )

The Keene Mayfly
( Hexagenia )"

followed by a recipe .... so since many guys want to refer to bugs by
pattern names .... our Hex could be called a Keene Mayfly, too g ( honest
it was random ) and obviously Gordon included the Latin for some reason...
to "impress" me? or to inform me?

I think that to a large extent the demographics and needs of "a group of
fishermen" varies across different parts of the country, and water types.
When I fish small mountain freestone streams in the Sierra I carry 4 or 5
patterns and decide what to fish based on my mood, ... finding the fish is
the game, they eat whatever goes by.

But where I fish most, MOST conversations between fishermen or
fishermen and shop clerks revolve around the bugs, a one level or another
and MOST include some Latin words. It's rare to met a FFer ... that is
catching fish ... that doesn't clearly understand the bugs and use some
Latin in his conversation on places like the Fork or Silver Creek.

Calling a "Speckled Wing Dun" a "callibaetis" doesn't require more intense
study of entomology ... you still have to have enough practical knowledge of
species characteristics to CONSISTENTLY apply the same name to the same bug
....regardless of the name you use.

Latin names are just names, names that make research easier. IF SOMEDAY
you care to know that a Hex is a burrower and needs a silt bottom .. knowing
it's a Hexagenia will lead to that info faster than "Keene's Mayfly"

Last point I offer to ponder ( and I'm not arguing g, I agree that the
Latin doesn't suit you and yours) you said "the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing..." and my instant reaction
was ... "I only started learning about the bugs when my interest grew to the
level of 'passion' ... before that I just wanted to catch fish"

I think you just hate Latin g maybe you were forced to study it and
didn't want to? maybe you tried to eat too much of it at one sitting and
got sick g? or more likely, I'd bet, it just doesn't fit you image of
what fishin' should be

-- --------
"Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world
and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
-- Thomas McGuane--
-------------

That comes as close as any single sentence I've found to summing up my idea
of fishing .... a search for greater interaction with Nature .... and a
chance to get away from "man's-****"
..... and frankly it ****es the crap outta me when
guys show up dragging all their "man-****" with them, cell phones, gps, high
tech underwear, yada yada yada .... I just want to scream "Why the ****
don't you just stay in your little air conditioned room and jack off your
harddrive, you dildo ?"

Perhaps ? ( just a guess, I'm likely wrong ) your image of fishin' is as a
"good ole boy" activity, a different kind of return to "roots" and "fancy
soundin' Latin" words somehow offend and conflict with that image and make
you mad in the same way?


PS I know my distaste for the SSS crowd is largely irrational ..... but I
still dislike them .... and I think it's fine if hearing Latin while fishing
is like chalk screeched across a blackboard to your ears ... YOUR fishing
should be what YOU want it to be

End of boring time wasting postG

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:TXRcc.174$rY5.31@lakeread06...


Wolfgang wrote:



Becky is off from the 9th through the 31th. It would be nice if
we
can keep it between those dates.

thirty oneth?? ok... in proper and due deference to becky, let's
tentatively set the time for the 2004 Carolina Anti-Clave Accretion
(CACA) from october 8 - october 17?

Works for me.

unless of course, others or becky
have a better suggestion. all flyfishers here or there -
anarchists,
contrarians, introverts, the gregarious, drunks, effetes,
entomologists,
*******s, eunuchs, satyrs, whores, virgins, whatever - are invited.
btw,
oct 12 is my birthday...presents are not optional.

Hm.....that leaves required or prohibited......do we get to pick?


Wolfgang

larry - since i think most of your comments were directed at or in
response to my rant, let me top post for convenience and say the following:

1. i love stream of conscious stuff. you should do it more often.
excellent work. it wasn't a bit boring to me.

2. i have nothing against anyone's desire to know the latin taxonomy of
bugs, flowers, trees, or anything. but... if communication is your
goal, latin limits your audience.

3. i have seen one hexagenia in my life. it was in wisconsin in the
company of several folks much smarter than me, all of whom gathered
together as a consequence of this bizarre place known as roff, who
certainly knew what it was. as one of the great unwashed from the
south, i thought it was a bat. they said it was a "hexagenia
(limbata?)". i said, "fuk you, that's a vampire bat." in my defense, it
was night, we were drinking a bit (joel carries some nectar in a flask),
and none of us was concerned about helping the other with anything to do
with catching a trout, but it was a memorable moment for me. that fly
wayne knight showed me in a cabin on alarka creek in the smokies of nc
was the right size after all. still, it was a unique thing... not at all
like parsing the mayfly or caddis variants in latin.

4. to talk about things, no doubt about it, words is what we need.
however, selecting the precise words that we need to communicate
effectively requires more than just talking in the unique words we know
from intense study or effort, or more than just assuming that the latin
names of a particular taxonomy have common meaning to a fishing
audience. i suspect most fly fisher-men or -women know more about a
light cahill style fly than they do about a stenacron canadense, don't
you?

5. for some reason, many authors of fly fishing books (i'm not
including entomology books or books geared to scientific precision in
descriptions) feel a need to use the latin names. i've never found it
helpful to the story or the explanation or the instruction. it seemed an
affectation, a wart. obvious, but not practical or useful to my fishing.
because a writer used a latin name is not compelling evidence to me...
it was unnecessary in most instances (many writers use latin names only
in parentheses - a recognition it is an aside comment). for me, and i
believe i'm typical of the majority of readers of flyfishing literature,
the taxonomy is excess and not memorable. but, if the author says, i
saw some tiny gnat-like bugs, so i used a #20 griffith's gnat (or a #24
peter's nit), well, i've got his/her meaning.

6. does "understanding the bugs" require a knowledge of latin names?
again, if i see a yellow bug flying about, i'll try to match it in size
and color and shape. i don't think being told it's an ephemerella
invaria tells me anything useful to my fishing efforts.

7. fishing in nc is tres different than fishing on penns, the rapid in
maine, henrys fork in idaho, or the madison. (i've fished them). still,
i've caught a bunch of fish on all of these streams (well, not that many
on henrys fork) using well-known flies and without any ability in
identifying the bugs by latin name schemes. i doubt any person who
knows all of the taxonomy had any more fun fishing those places than i,
and i think i had an appreciation and enjoyment of the places, bugs,
landscape, water, vegetation, and fish equalling any entomologist
fishing those streams, despite an inability to identify a bug's name.

8. i don't hate latin... it has a use in figuring out the meaning of
words from time to time, i'm told. g but the bug latin...well, it has
no meaning to me in any practical sense. i'm not an entomologist or a
scientist or an artist or much of anything. most of the fishing
audience is like me. if you want to talk to us, help us, inform us
about fishing, then "quill gordon" is communication; "epeorus pleuralis"
is not. it seems an intellectual exercise for you... sorta like the
satisfaction i get from a crossword puzzle or cryptoquote.
self-satisfaction, even passionate self-satisfaction (ok, ok, i know) is
a selfish pursuit. i have no doubt bug latin is useful for bug scientist
communication and understanding...there are way too many bugs to
identify, name, and categorize. it's just not helpful to me or many of
the passionate fisherfolk i know when trying to communicate about our
fishing. i find it off-putting. (but, i have had some fun telling pj his
alosa sappidissima looked like an alosa mediocritus...)

9. i admit my view of all this reveals my personal limitations and
ignorance about bugs in particular, and other things in general...it's
just the tip of the iceberg of my stupidity. no argument, my image of
fishing, and the reality of what's important to me about fishing, isn't
latin bug names. here's an analogy for you - my knowledge of and ability
to comment on the wonders of the bartolin's gland hasn't added to my
pleasure one bit, and i doubt it would mean much to most folks if i said
"if you're fishin in those waters, you might wanna wax your rod...the
bartolin's aint too active".

10. i hope to fish with or near you one of these days. i've learned
something useful from everyone i've been privileged to fish with or
observe fishing. i'm a fishing "tabula rasa".

jeff



Larry L wrote:

Well some of my replies to others in this thread have already admitted that
I somewhat agree ...discriptions stand the best chance of wide understanding

but .. I'm bored and have some time to kill, so,
I say "horse pucky" G

To talk about things we need to name them .... you can call the big scary
bug a "Michigan Caddis" a "big yellow humpy" a "Hexagenia"
or a "big scary bug" All those will work for some people.

The very fact that you got from Hexagenia to "big yellow humpy" proves that
the Latin word DID convey information from my typing fingers to your
scanning eyes and you DO have enough "entomology" knowledge about that bug
to use the Latin.

I have no way of knowing whether you would have gotten from "Michigan
Caddis" to "big yellow humpy" but the idea that you have to look at a bugs
gonads under a microscope to consistently call it by the same name is far
from accurate, and further from what I'm saying.

I have been in Polly Rosborough's house when he "described" Hexagenia as
"Big Floppy Yellow May" .... I have been in Craig Matthews shop when he
told a customer that asked what fly to use that a PMD was a "big yellow
mayfly"
.... Hexs and PMDs are at least as close as #8 woolybuggers and #18
Griffiths Gnats G ( which ain't really that different, are they ?)

As I read your post my phone rang and the phone is near a book shelf with FF
books on it ..... I was drawn to notice that at least 90% of those books
have some Latin in them that the authors must have felt helped them
communicate.

I grabbed the first one I noticed that seemed the LEAST "high
tech... " How to Fish from Top to Bottom" by Sid Gordon (1955 )and randomly
( no **** now, I kid you not, it was random and I nearly fell over, myself )
opened it to page 319

I quote

"Dry Flies
(Ephemeroptera )

The Keene Mayfly
( Hexagenia )"

followed by a recipe .... so since many guys want to refer to bugs by
pattern names .... our Hex could be called a Keene Mayfly, too g ( honest
it was random ) and obviously Gordon included the Latin for some reason...
to "impress" me? or to inform me?

I think that to a large extent the demographics and needs of "a group of
fishermen" varies across different parts of the country, and water types.
When I fish small mountain freestone streams in the Sierra I carry 4 or 5
patterns and decide what to fish based on my mood, ... finding the fish is
the game, they eat whatever goes by.

But where I fish most, MOST conversations between fishermen or
fishermen and shop clerks revolve around the bugs, a one level or another
and MOST include some Latin words. It's rare to met a FFer ... that is
catching fish ... that doesn't clearly understand the bugs and use some
Latin in his conversation on places like the Fork or Silver Creek.

Calling a "Speckled Wing Dun" a "callibaetis" doesn't require more intense
study of entomology ... you still have to have enough practical knowledge of
species characteristics to CONSISTENTLY apply the same name to the same bug
...regardless of the name you use.

Latin names are just names, names that make research easier. IF SOMEDAY
you care to know that a Hex is a burrower and needs a silt bottom .. knowing
it's a Hexagenia will lead to that info faster than "Keene's Mayfly"

Last point I offer to ponder ( and I'm not arguing g, I agree that the
Latin doesn't suit you and yours) you said "the vast majority
of folks who are passionate about the fishing..." and my instant reaction
was ... "I only started learning about the bugs when my interest grew to the
level of 'passion' ... before that I just wanted to catch fish"

I think you just hate Latin g maybe you were forced to study it and
didn't want to? maybe you tried to eat too much of it at one sitting and
got sick g? or more likely, I'd bet, it just doesn't fit you image of
what fishin' should be

-- --------
"Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world
and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
-- Thomas McGuane--
-------------

That comes as close as any single sentence I've found to summing up my idea
of fishing .... a search for greater interaction with Nature .... and a
chance to get away from "man's-****"
.... and frankly it ****es the crap outta me when
guys show up dragging all their "man-****" with them, cell phones, gps, high
tech underwear, yada yada yada .... I just want to scream "Why the ****
don't you just stay in your little air conditioned room and jack off your
harddrive, you dildo ?"

Perhaps ? ( just a guess, I'm likely wrong ) your image of fishin' is as a
"good ole boy" activity, a different kind of return to "roots" and "fancy
soundin' Latin" words somehow offend and conflict with that image and make
you mad in the same way?


PS I know my distaste for the SSS crowd is largely irrational ..... but I
still dislike them .... and I think it's fine if hearing Latin while fishing
is like chalk screeched across a blackboard to your ears ... YOUR fishing
should be what YOU want it to be

End of boring time wasting postG

Wolfgang wrote:



Hm.....that leaves required or prohibited......do we get to pick?



sure...but, i've heard if you keep pickin at it, it'll never heal. your
and becky's presence will be present enough...

jeff

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:4c2dc.78$192.5@lakeread06...

...i admit my view of all this reveals my personal limitations and
ignorance about bugs in particular, and other things in general...

Uh huh.

Wolfgang
who has seen more latin in the last four minutes than in as many years.

"Jeff Miller" wrote

4. to talk about things, no doubt about it, words is what we need.
however, selecting the precise words that we need to communicate
effectively requires more than just talking in the unique words we know
from intense study or effort, or more than just assuming that the latin
names of a particular taxonomy have common meaning to a fishing
audience. i suspect most fly fisher-men or -women know more about a
light cahill style fly than they do about a stenacron canadense, don't
you?

i just thought that you ought to be aware that i will print out the
paragraph, above, in order to read it at public gatherings from now until we
perish, with a hope to somehow equalize the anguish that you brought to me
by telling pj about my little story of he and i and the paraleptophebias on
snowbird creek.

for you, my friend, dante' would have described an *eigth* circle of
hell...



yfitp
wayno