line choice for beginner

Dan I too am a novice. I talked to many fly fishing shops before buying new
line last time I bought it. Everyone of them told me to go with WF.
"Dan" wrote in message
...
I want to start fly fishing and have rod (5 wt) and reel (7wt). I will buy
a
5 wt floating line since this has recommended for me, but am wondering
whether a weight forward or double taper would be appropriate. I see the
advantage of the DT is that you get twice the use because you can reverse
it
eventually. I would also think that since my reel is a bit large for my
rod/line weight that a double taper might be appropriate. Do you guys
think
it would be a good idea or should I just get a weight forward line? Also,
does it matter which exactly one I get? I have been told to get the best
or
close to it. Do you have any specific recommendations as to brand?

TIA

Dan

Fly-shops are there to sell you things. Some will give you first class
advice, and yet others will merely try to sell you something. The only way
to make sure you get what you really need, is to inform yourself as well as
you possibly can. There are a couple of fly-shop owners posting on here (
and of course there are many other good ones as well, but I don´t know them
!), who can be relied upon to give you good advice on gear etc, as opposed
to merely selling you something.

Manufacturers advice, and general "blurb" with regard to the gear they sell
is often less than useless, as most will exaggerate, obfuscate, and lie
through their teeth in order to flog their gear.

I am aware that many people advise beginners to use WF lines, I have just
never been able to figure out why. I rather suspect it is because there is
more money to be earned on a WF line, and advertising is a very powerful
force. Much greater than common sense.

With regard to the "thousands" of people I have taught to cast. This sounds
ridiculous of course, but is a fact. Where I live, people are obliged to
take a number of tests before they can go fishing. For a long time I
instructed large numbers of people wishing to do this. Often up to a
hundred or more at a time, and several times a year. Normally, most could
cast well enough to pass the test after two Saturday mornings instruction,
and a couple of days practicing on their own. At such a rate, and after over
twenty years of doing it, it does not take all that long to have taught a
few thousand people. It also does not take long before you have cast
several thousand rods and lines! Not to mention the odd conglomeration of
reels and other gear which turns up. Nevertheless, one often has difficulty
persuading people to change what they bought! Even when it is quite
obviously unsuitable! Nowadays, most clubs etc here have a selection of
suitable gear for people to use for casting practice prior to tests etc, and
this is much better than them buying a load of stuff beforehand.

People learn things at different speeds. Out of a hundred people say, maybe
60 will learn to cast ( under the same instruction of course), in two
Saturday mornings. Others, say 20 to 30, will require more time, maybe four
or five Saturday mornings, and the rest will need much longer. This is
perfectly normal. Trying to learn on your own will work, but may take a lot
longer, as you do not know exactly what you are trying to do. It is rare
for somebody to be able to cast immediately, but it does occur. Much as
some people can shoot very accurately immediately, or pick up a musical
instrument and play it almost immediately. Talent also varies widely. If
you have no talent, you can still do it, but it takes a lot more time,
effort, and application.

There are some people who are quite fanatical about WF lines, and I know a
couple of top casters who use them. If you are a top caster, then you don´t
need any advice from me anyway. If you like, and use WF lines, then that is
great, I have nothing whatever against you doing so. I do not use them
myself, and I do not advocate them either. Most especially not for
beginners.

Usually, people are advised to use a WF line one rating up from the rod
rating. For a long time, most rods had two ratings marked on the butt i.e
#6/#7 or similar.
This was usually a manufacturers recommendation that the rod would cast a
DT#6 or a WF#7. This is because a WF line of the same rating as the DT
would be too light to load the rod at short range, Many beginners still
have difficulty even when using a WF one rating higher, as this also does
not load the rod well at short range. If you have trouble loading the rod,
then use a DT one rating up. This is easier to start with. All rods will
cast a range of lines, but it will be easire and better with the right one
for you.

Before you can catch fish at ranges of sixty feet and more, you must be able
to catch them at ranges of thirty feet or less! Doing otherwise, is trying
to run before you can walk, is extremely frustrating, and is in any case
more or less doomed to failure.

WF lines were originally designed for distance casting, invariably with a
double haul, and they do work quite well for this. ( Not as well as a
shooting head though). For some stillwater or other long distance work they
are more than adequate, especially some of the newer special lengths and
tapers which are offered. These are in no way suitable for beginners!

One inevitably returns however to the simple fact that beginners are unable
to cast much distance, they often can not cast at all! Selling them, or
advising them to buy something which they can not use properly, is
absolutely pointless, and merely results in them becoming frustrated, not to
mention the money they wasted.

What the "mainstream advice" happens to be at any given time, has never
worried me much at all, although when I first started a long time ago, I
wasted time, money, and tears, on the wrong things as well. Doubtless every
half way experienced angler on this group, or anywhere else for that matter,
has wasted varying amounts of time and money trying to set up his optimal
personal rig, or rigs. This is part of the game really. But many beginners
simply can not afford to go this route, they are better served with
reasonably priced and suitable gear to start with. They can always buy the
fancy stuff later, after they have learned how to use it.

By the same token, buying extremely expensive gear to start with is usually
a mistake. Once upon a time, the standard advice was to buy a reasonable
rod, a cheap reel, and the best line you could afford.

Rods and reels, even the cheap ones, are now generally so good that it does
not even matter much what you buy, they will work. This will save you
money, and allow you to gather knowledge and experience. With regard to
lines, it is certain that the best lines will allow you to cast better. But
as you can not cast to start with, and are liable to beat hell out of your
first line anyway, as handling etc also has to be learned, then it is
probably better to go for a medium priced line, as you will probably ruin it
in your first season.

Advice on this or any other group, is only advice. It may differ widely.
This does not necessarily make it "wrong". As a general rule, if you get the
same advice from ten experienced anglers, and differing advice from three
others, then go with the majority! Hardly anybody will wilfully give you
bad advice.

The best way to get started is not to buy anything at all! But to take
casting lessons from a good caster, or a reputable guide, preferably a well
known pro. After this, you "KNOW" what you need and why, and it will work
out cheaper in the long run, not to mention the time and frustration you
save as a result. Very few people go this route, but it is undoubtedly the
best way of going about it.

If you don´t want, or are unable to do this, then you are forced to rely on
advice from others, and your own devices. What you make of this is entirely
up to you.

Even with the best advice, best instruction, and the best gear, you can not
learn in twenty minutes what it has taken others twenty years to learn.
Fishing is a continual journey of discovery. It is not like learning to
ride a bicycle! You will never be "perfect" no matter what you do, and there
is always something new around the corner. Casting is only a part of what
you need to learn.

There are now millions of people flyfishing. The skill and knowledge level
of these people differs massively. Just because somebody has been fishing
for twenty years does not necessarily make him an expert, and by the same
token, some young guy who only started a year ago may be brilliant at it!
Normally, it is quite easy to tell who is a good angler, and who is not.
Merely watch and listen. Many things become obvious in a very short time,
even though you yourself may have very little knowledge of the matter, you
can tell very quickly indeed whether somebody else has.

What you need to do is go fishing and enjoy yourself, that is really what
fishing is all about. If you enjoy yourself, then many things will come
quite naturally, without even a conscious effort on your part. If you look
at fishing or casting as a task which somehow has to be accomplished in a
given time, and then you are an expert, then you will very likely fail, and
you will also not enjoy yourself much.

TL
MC

In article , Mike Connor
wrote:

snipped

With regard to the "thousands" of people I have taught to cast. This sounds
ridiculous of course, but is a fact. Where I live, people are obliged to
take a number of tests before they can go fishing. For a long time I
instructed large numbers of people wishing to do this. Often up to a
hundred or more at a time, and several times a year. Normally, most could
cast well enough to pass the test after two Saturday mornings instruction,
and a couple of days practicing on their own.

TL
MC

Mike,

A bit off topic for the subject but I was intrigued by the idea of
required instruction prior to taking up fishing. Driving, sure (in
fact, most in the US ought to go back for a refresher! ) Hunting, makes
good sense as you're dealing with potentially lethal mistakes, but
fishing? Is it conservation that they want to teach or is it a safety
issue? I fish with Frank Reid regularly so no one is more aware of the
dangers of fishing than me (and I've pulled some pretty stupid stuff
myself I just don't share it!) but I can't think of any classroom or
on-the-water course that would have saved me.

Happy Easter

Allen
Catonsville, MD

Mike Connor wrote:

Usually, people are advised to use a WF line one rating up from the rod
rating. For a long time, most rods had two ratings marked on the butt i.e
#6/#7 or similar.
This was usually a manufacturers recommendation that the rod would cast a
DT#6 or a WF#7. This is because a WF line of the same rating as the DT
would be too light to load the rod at short range, Many beginners still
have difficulty even when using a WF one rating higher, as this also does
not load the rod well at short range. If you have trouble loading the rod,
then use a DT one rating up.

This got my attention and prompts a question. I'm not trying to irritate
or criticize you, Mike. I'm genuinely curious.

If, as you say (and I believe), "there is no difference in the tapers at
this distance [30 feet], (on standard lines)," why is a WF "lighter"
than a DT and more difficult to load the rod?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"Allen Epps" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
et...
SNIP
A bit off topic for the subject but I was intrigued by the idea of
required instruction prior to taking up fishing. Driving, sure (in
fact, most in the US ought to go back for a refresher! ) Hunting, makes
good sense as you're dealing with potentially lethal mistakes, but
fishing? Is it conservation that they want to teach or is it a safety
issue? I fish with Frank Reid regularly so no one is more aware of the
dangers of fishing than me (and I've pulled some pretty stupid stuff
myself I just don't share it!) but I can't think of any classroom or
on-the-water course that would have saved me.

Happy Easter

Allen
Catonsville, MD

Basically it is a combination of a number of things. Conservation, safety,
legal aspects, and of course it has political grounds. "Greens" and other
similar groups are very powerful here, and this tends to make things like
angling and hunting extremely restrictive. Germany is also basically very
bureacratic per se.

These tests, including 36 hours mandatory classroom instruction, six hours
casting instruction ( extra if you want to flyfish, the basic tests are only
for spincasting), a valid and current first aid certificate, and a current
police report, followed by the practical and theoretical tests, are a legal
requirement before one may obtain a licence. It would take far too long to
go into all the background here. If you do a search on google, some time
ago ( couple of years maybe?) there was considerable discussion on here
about it.

Before anybody gets their knickers in a terrible twist, as I live here, I am
subject to the laws here, as is everybody else. Whether I am principally for
or against them, either generally or specifically, is quite another matter.

TL
MC

Mike C writes:
I am aware that many people advise beginners to use WF lines, I have just
never been able to figure out why. I rather suspect it is because there is
more money to be earned on a WF line, and advertising is a very powerful
force.

I've always suspected the same, due to the fact that a well cared for DT will
last me 6 years of pretty heavy fishing, while a WF only gets 3. The economics
for the line manufacturers seems to dictate the marketing strategy. For normal
stream fishing, I have never seen where a WF line conveyed any advantage, even
on some of the larger streams I fish. Admittedly, I mainly fish for trout and
smallmouth bass in streams from 10-100 feet wide, so my practice wouldn't
dictate anyone elses choice.

What you need to do is go fishing and enjoy yourself, that is really what
fishing is all about.
And that is the best advice of all!
Tom

"rw" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
ink.net...
SNIP
This got my attention and prompts a question. I'm not trying to irritate
or criticize you, Mike. I'm genuinely curious.

If, as you say (and I believe), "there is no difference in the tapers at
this distance [30 feet], (on standard lines)," why is a WF "lighter"
than a DT and more difficult to load the rod?

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Sorry, perhaps I did not make that clear enough. There is no difference
between DT and WF lines of the same rating. A WF line one rating higher
than the DT is of course heavier than the DT.

Often, beginners are told that a WF will load the rod more easily. This is
of course only true if a heavier WF is used! And applies equally well to any
other line. Beginners are not told this of course! Presumably because
they would then see through the marketing ploy, or because those advising
them don´t know any better! It is not necessarily malicious.

AFTM In grains In grams In ounces
3 100 +/- 6 6.48 0.228
4 120 +/- 6 7.78 0.274
5 140 +/- 6 9.07 0.32
6 160 +/- 8 10.42 0.366
7 185 +/- 8 11.99 0.422
8 210 +/- 8 13.61 0.48
9 240 +/- 10 15.55 0.55
10 280 +/- 10 18.14 0.64
11 330 +/- 12 21.38 0.75
12 380 +/- 12 24.62 0.86

From the table, which applies to the first thirty feet of flyline,
(excluding the level tip if present), it can be seen that 30 feet of #6 DT
weighs ca. 160 grains.
30 feet of #6 WF weighs exactly the same, ca. 160 grains.

If you use a WF one rating higher, then that is a WF#7 which weighs 185
grains. This means that the heavier WF will load the rod sooner, and more
easily at short range.

Of course, so will a DT#7 which also weighs 185 grains.

The tapers may vary slightly, but this is basically immaterial, it is the
weight that counts. This table applies to all standard flylines, regardless
of any other characteristics they may have.

30 feet of #6 flyline. whether DT WF ST BT, etc etc weighs ca. 160 grains.

I find it rather surprising that you and others seem to think that I am
easily irritated by criticism etc. This is not the case. I just like to try
and keep to the facts, that´s all. If I am wrong about something, ( which
has been known to occur!), and somebody points this out, then I accept it.
It would be quite pointless doing otherwise.

While opinions may differ, and some may interpret facts in some other way,
one can not change the basic facts.

TL
MC

"Mike Connor" wrote in message
Fly-shops are there to sell you things. Some will give you first class
advice, and yet others will merely try to sell you something. The only
way
to make sure you get what you really need, is to inform yourself as well
as
you possibly can.

I certainly agree, but I'll add that some shop owners take a short term
outlook while some (the smarter ones, I think) take the long view. As a
newbie, I put myself at the mercy of a fly shop owner for advice. I went
in, with a limited budget and asked what I needed. Joe could not have been
more helpful or more honest. Now, more than a decade later, I still do not
doubt or disagree with the advice he gave me or the products he sold me that
day. Consequently, I remain a loyal customer; and he has more than recouped
what he could have taken from me that first day.

Joe F.

p.s. He recommended a DT line.

the +/- after the grain weight is the allowed manufacturing tolerance.

TL
MC

In article , Mike Connor
wrote:

"Allen Epps" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
et...
SNIP
A bit off topic for the subject but I was intrigued by the idea of
required instruction prior to taking up fishing. Driving, sure (in
fact, most in the US ought to go back for a refresher! ) Hunting, makes
good sense as you're dealing with potentially lethal mistakes, but
fishing? Is it conservation that they want to teach or is it a safety
issue? I fish with Frank Reid regularly so no one is more aware of the
dangers of fishing than me (and I've pulled some pretty stupid stuff
myself I just don't share it!) but I can't think of any classroom or
on-the-water course that would have saved me.

Happy Easter

Allen
Catonsville, MD

Basically it is a combination of a number of things. Conservation, safety,
legal aspects, and of course it has political grounds. "Greens" and other
similar groups are very powerful here, and this tends to make things like
angling and hunting extremely restrictive. Germany is also basically very
bureacratic per se.

These tests, including 36 hours mandatory classroom instruction, six hours
casting instruction ( extra if you want to flyfish, the basic tests are only
for spincasting), a valid and current first aid certificate, and a current
police report, followed by the practical and theoretical tests, are a legal
requirement before one may obtain a licence. It would take far too long to
go into all the background here. If you do a search on google, some time
ago ( couple of years maybe?) there was considerable discussion on here
about it.

Before anybody gets their knickers in a terrible twist, as I live here, I am
subject to the laws here, as is everybody else. Whether I am principally for
or against them, either generally or specifically, is quite another matter.

TL
MC

Mike,
Wow, hard to believe that things can go that wrong with something as
important to my "life liberty and pursuit of happiness" as basic as
fishing. I've heard similar horror stories about the Green's in
Australia from a liasion officer. Thanks for the info.

Allen