I'm ashamed of my country

US military investigates Iraq massacre claims:

http://tinyurl.com/leqng

I have little doubt that this is true. Out marines killed 15 unarmed
Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children.

For the third time in my life, I'm ashamed of (or for) my country. The
first time was the Mi Lai Massacre. The second, recently, was the Abu
Ghraib torture. Now this horror.

This has to stop.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three
people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the
past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious
issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was
never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong.
Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were
innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were
innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night,
or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and
people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they
must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed.

There have been assertations that they were just farmers, and other
assertations that they had been tracked directly from a car bombing
site, and that footsoldiers later searched the wreckage and found
weapons. However, all I have found is definitve assertations that the
military is being completely silent on this. That makes me fear the
worst.

There is another site that shows footage of a vehicle randomly shooting
at cars on the road to Bagdhad airport, while some jazzy Elvis tune
plays in the background. Several of the cars react in ways that make it
obvious that the drivers were hit, possibly killed. Certainly, in
almost all of these cases, the drivers were guilty of nothing more than
being behind this vehicle and not noticing that they were gaining on
it; I can't believe they all were carrying car bombs.

I would dearly like to think that our military is above wanton killing,
and has better discipline than this, but the reality is that an army is
a very blunt instrument, and that 'acceptable collateral damage' has
migrated from accidental killing of people caught in crossfire of
legitimate firefights, to deliberate killing of random indiviuals.

My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear. All of this shames
and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many
Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and
the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice.

--riverman

In article .com,
riverman wrote:

My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear. All of this shames
and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many
Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and
the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice.

What's more, not only is all this stuff morally repugnant: to be
brutally pragmatic about it, it's also enormously damaging to the
future safety of America and Americans.

This doesn't seem to have occurred to those who

a) don't want to know it's happening (which is why I'm so worried about
the lack of information available to the general mass of people in the
States)
or
b) explain it away in the way you describe

See also

http://tinyurl.com/jfqrh

(and note that the Telegraph is a right-wing paper, and the SAS is far
from being a hotbed of pansy liberalism)

L

And it is regularly ashamed of you...

Remember, there's always Canada...and speaking of which, where'd the fake whiny
New Yorker-turned-Canadian loony go?

"riverman" wrote in
oups.com:

I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three
people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for
the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very
contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago,
but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were
doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange
assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field
at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person
running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me
to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to
accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of
something' makes me deeply ashamed

I recall that video. It troubled me too for days. The 50mm cannon
rounds left absolutely nothing behind but the green heat signature
of remains. Those guys were acting very suspicious, as you mention,
and I had read they were 1/4 of mile from a US Army checkpoint. I was
hoping you had found an explanation, but I guess we'll never know.

Putting aside the controversey, it is interesting to see how the
decision is made to kill them, and how the gunner eventually gets
the go code. It was not a fait accompli, nor could you detect any
wink-winkness in the dialogue. For me, this video does not rank
beside the British troops who made the random shoot-up video to Elvis
music that you mention.

An interesting part of the video is the when the gunner opens fire,
but is on 'manual'. The gunship is a few miles away I think, and he
misses, causing one of the targets to "dance". How could the targets
not know they were being shot at? I suppose that with no gunfire
audible or rotar sound they must have written off the thuds of
bullets as something else. The gunner says, "****! Going to auto!",
or something like that. And of course doesn't miss again.

I remember thinking it was just like a video game with a cheat bot
enabled.

rw wrote in news:a05Uf.4007$HW2.908
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

US military investigates Iraq massacre claims:

http://tinyurl.com/leqng

I have little doubt that this is true. Out marines killed 15 unarmed
Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children.

For the third time in my life, I'm ashamed of (or for) my country. The
first time was the Mi Lai Massacre. The second, recently, was the Abu
Ghraib torture. Now this horror.

This has to stop.


Hey, we're making progress in the region. The liberated Afghanis are right
at this very moment trying to figure out if they can get around the death
penalty for a Christian convert by calling him insane.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

On 22 Mar 2006 00:03:22 -0800, "riverman" wrote:

I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three
people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for the
past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very contentious
issue, and made the online rounds several years ago, but AFAIK it was
never definitively proven that these guys were doing anything wrong.
Some people insisted such strange assertations as "if they were
innocent, why were they in a field at night?" or "if they were
innocent, why was that one person running?" Being in a field at night,
or running don't seem to me to be offenses punishable by death, and
people's willingness to accept that 'they were killed, therefore they
must be guilty of something' makes me deeply ashamed.

There have been assertations that they were just farmers, and other
assertations that they had been tracked directly from a car bombing
site, and that footsoldiers later searched the wreckage and found
weapons. However, all I have found is definitve assertations that the
military is being completely silent on this. That makes me fear the
worst.

There is another site that shows footage of a vehicle randomly shooting
at cars on the road to Bagdhad airport, while some jazzy Elvis tune
plays in the background. Several of the cars react in ways that make it
obvious that the drivers were hit, possibly killed. Certainly, in
almost all of these cases, the drivers were guilty of nothing more than
being behind this vehicle and not noticing that they were gaining on
it; I can't believe they all were carrying car bombs.

I would dearly like to think that our military is above wanton killing,

Think it all you want, but it isn't, and regardless of what you mean by
"our"...any time you give a couple of hundred thousand kids under the age of 25
assault rifles and larger weapons, things are occasionally going to go wrong.

and has better discipline than this, but the reality is that an army is
a very blunt instrument,

An army has but one ultimate purpose: to kill people and tear up their ****.
Sometimes, thankfully, it need not do it, but it and its leaders better be ready
to do it at all times. And sometimes, if you'll pardon the pun, somebody jumps
the gun. And of course, you've got a few nutcases that slip in and get their
hands on a gun...

and that 'acceptable collateral damage' has
migrated from accidental killing of people caught in crossfire of
legitimate firefights, to deliberate killing of random indiviuals.

"Migrated?" You think this, should it turn out to be totally unjustified,
illegal killing, or guys like Calley and co. are something new and "American?"

My Lei would not even be prosecuted today, I fear.

VERY unlikely - possible, but VERY unlikely...

All of this shames and sickens me; the random killing, the endorsement of it by many
Americans (and the associated attacks on people who condemn it), and
the absolute impossibility of most of it ever coming to justice.

And just who are these "many Americans" who have endorsed "random killing" and
attacked those who condemn it? And of what incidents are you speaking?

If one were going to base an opinion solely upon what I've read in "news"
reports, I'd agree that something at least suspicious happened and that someone
is trying cover something up, but the "facts" from all sides seem unlikely:
supposedly, the Marines took heavy fire but they only found 2 AKs, there were
only two eyewitnesses but both are young children, etc. Some of the
"after-the-fact" stories from the locals are questionable, too: 4 guys
supposedly herded into a closet too small to fit them and shot, reporters giving
credence to blood spatter pattern analysis opinions from untrained locals, etc.
I'd offer that folks who have nothing more to go on might want to reserve
judgment at this point - as always, YMMV.

TC,
R

"GaryM" wrote in message
2.112...
"riverman" wrote in
oups.com:

I came across that video of an Apache helicopter shooting of three
people in a field (google under 'apache killing video'), and for
the past two weeks I have felt a bit nauseus. It was a very
contentious issue, and made the online rounds several years ago,
but AFAIK it was never definitively proven that these guys were
doing anything wrong. Some people insisted such strange
assertations as "if they were innocent, why were they in a field
at night?" or "if they were innocent, why was that one person
running?" Being in a field at night, or running don't seem to me
to be offenses punishable by death, and people's willingness to
accept that 'they were killed, therefore they must be guilty of
something' makes me deeply ashamed

I recall that video. It troubled me too for days. The 50mm cannon
rounds left absolutely nothing behind but the green heat signature
of remains. Those guys were acting very suspicious, as you mention,
and I had read they were 1/4 of mile from a US Army checkpoint. I was
hoping you had found an explanation, but I guess we'll never know.

I don't know what 'suspicious' means, and I most definately did not say they
were acting so. They were acting in a manner that was not clear what they
were doing, but I've seen enough things in other cultures and places to not
label them 'suspicious' without reason to be suspect. Its like an inkblot:
different people see different things. The person running across the field
seemed a bit out of place, but then again I have worked with people who were
very agressive when they worked. If that person was putting something in a
field that the tractor needed when it arrived, then I could easily imagine
them being a 'go getter' who sprinted out to the field and back; not
something deserving of being killed over. Likewise, as they were unwrapping
the thing the moment they were being killed, they had their head down beside
the engine of a running tractor. I think it is completely likely that they
never heard or saw the tractor driver being shot, and were just hustling,
doing their job. Again, this is only supposition, but similarly so is the
assumption that they were doing something 'suspicious'. The difference is,
my supposition didn't lead to them being killed by a hovering Apache.


Putting aside the controversey, it is interesting to see how the
decision is made to kill them, and how the gunner eventually gets
the go code. It was not a fait accompli, nor could you detect any
wink-winkness in the dialogue.

No, I agree. But I think the part of the coversation where the controller
says "are you sure its a weapon" and the pilots reply: "Absolutely Positive"
sealed their fate, but I was anything but 'absolutely positive' and fail to
understand how the pilot could be so sure. I deeply crave to know that the
pilot was privvy to some info that I don't have. Or at least that ground
troops later verified that he was correct.

For me, this video does not rank
beside the British troops who made the random shoot-up video to Elvis
music that you mention.

What do you mean: its worse, or its not as bad?


An interesting part of the video is the when the gunner opens fire,
but is on 'manual'. The gunship is a few miles away I think, and he
misses, causing one of the targets to "dance". How could the targets
not know they were being shot at?

Trust me on this: I have been in the vicinity of live machinegun fire. When
you hear it, you skip; its involuntary. In Congo, during the coup, whenever
the gunfire went off, even inside the house and knowing full well that I was
not being targeted, I reacted pretty much exactly like that, then giggled it
off. Their reaction was precisely what I'd expect for someone who thought
they were NOT being shot at. If they thought they were the target and were
familiar with gunfire, they would have instantly scattered.

Some poster pointed out that the tractor driver gave the runner a little
peck on the cheek. I think the skipper was a woman. In fact, the scenario I
can't get out of my head, that fits the image, is this:

A farmer is plowing a field, his field hand is hanging out by the truck, and
the farmer's wife or daughter is bringing something out to the tractor. She
meets up with the field hand, they chat a bit, and she says 'just a sec, I
need to drop this by the field for Abdul." She's one of those 'go get it'
workers, so she sprints to the field, drops the package, and sprints back to
casually resume her converstation. Meanwhile, the fieldhand strolls over and
drops off what looks like a bottle of water. They return to the truck and
chat a bit more (having no idea that an Apache pilot is watching). They know
the chopper is there, glance up at it, and say something like "geez, its
strange having those Americans all over the place, but at least they're here
to make some changes. I hope it doesn't take long." Then, the tractor
arrives, she sprints over to see Abdul, and the sound of the chopper firing
makes her skip a step in suprise. She shakes it off, not ever imagining she
was the target. The farmer pecks her on the cheek, hops off the tractor, and
starts walking over to his fieldhand to take a break while she preps
whatever she brought. Suddenly, out of the blue, he is blown to bits, which
shocks the everloving **** out of the field hand who dives under the truck.
The woman doesn't hear a thing, with her head down by the running tractor
engine, and with her get-go attitude, she's unwrapping whatever thing she
brought. Then she gets blown to ****, too.

Meanwhile, the fieldhand cannot believe or understand what is happening. He
is panicking, trying to hide behind the truck and falls down, where he is
spotted. A second later, the truck explodes in front of him, stunning,
injuring and shellshocking him. Severely wounded, he rolls out into the
field, where he is also blown to death.


I suppose that with no gunfire
audible or rotar sound they must have written off the thuds of
bullets as something else. The gunner says, "****! Going to auto!",
or something like that. And of course doesn't miss again.

I remember thinking it was just like a video game with a cheat bot
enabled.

I think that's precisely the impression that modern weaponry is designed to
make.

--riverman
If anyone knows more about this video.....FACTS, not suppositions, I need to
hear them.

I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying
that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at
this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out
to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things.

Benjamin Turek wrote:
I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying
that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at
this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out
to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things.

If you're a soldier in Iraq and you're constantly in danger of being
shot by a sniper or blown apart by an IED, I can almost forgive you for
going into a blind killing rampage when your buddy gets killed. Almost,
but not quite.

What I can't forgive are the callous, deceitful politicians who put you
in that position, and who continue to assert that things are going
"very, very well" in spite of simple, obvious reality, and who evade
responsibility for any mistakes.

The same holds true for the disgraceful Abu Graib torture scandal.
Rumsfeld asserts that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply and personally
approves interrogation methods that amount to torture. So who gets
punished when the **** hits the fan? The low-ranking mouth breathers who
were given the dirty work.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.