OT an interesting exclusion

Since I started checking roff, a few years back, nearly ever news topic has
come up here and resulted in the usual name calling and nastiness that makes
the place so endearing to us all.

But, I believe that the current turmoil over immigration is a very important
topic .... yet it goes unmentioned ...

I'm less interested in starting a war, than in why one hasn't spontaneously
combustion-ed

subject too touchy?

subject too gray without the blacks and whites that right-wingers can grasp
G? -- that G indicates I'm just kidding




fwiw, every single very rich, very 'conservative' person I know here in
ArnoldLand, has a staff of illegals for some jobs

One of my favorite stories is an argument I had with a friend. We were on
one of his daddy's huge ranches, ( literally as far as the eye can see from
the top of the highest point around). He went into Brainless Conservative
Argument #4 ( the one that goes along the lines of 'rich people shouldn't be
taxed because THEIR money is used to create jobs' ... { unlike the money I
spend }).

I looked him in the eye and asked ( name changed ), "Fred, this ranch
represents millions of dollars, how many jobs are all those millions
supporting?"

Answer? ..... 4 ranch hands ... all illegals

Larry wrote:
Since I started checking roff, a few years back, nearly ever news topic has
come up here and resulted in the usual name calling and nastiness that makes
the place so endearing to us all.

But, I believe that the current turmoil over immigration is a very important
topic .... yet it goes unmentioned ...

I'm less interested in starting a war, than in why one hasn't spontaneously
combustion-ed

subject too touchy?

subject too gray without the blacks and whites that right-wingers can grasp
G? -- that G indicates I'm just kidding ...

It pretty much is black and white. We could end illegal
immigration tomorrow if we really wanted to. All it would
take is to make the hiring of an illegal a felony punishable
by 10 years in jail for each illegal hired. And enforce the
law zealously. POOF no more illegal immigration. But if you
did that the fat cats would end up in jail and the fat cats
would rather spout about silly **** like 700 mile long fences.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Larry wrote:
Since I started checking roff, a few years back, nearly ever news topic has
come up here and resulted in the usual name calling and nastiness that makes
the place so endearing to us all.

But, I believe that the current turmoil over immigration is a very important
topic .... yet it goes unmentioned ...

I'm less interested in starting a war, than in why one hasn't spontaneously
combustion-ed

subject too touchy?

Everyone is afraid of Fortenberry's wrath. :-)

The reason that nothing gets done on illegal immigration, and why
nothing will ever get done in the forseeable future, is that the
avoiding issue plays to both Democratic and Republican advantage. The
Democrats don't support reform because Hispanics are one of their strong
constituencies. The Republicans don't support reform because business
interests that benefit from cheap illegal labor are one of their strong
constituencies.

I think illegal immigration drives down wages. That is self-evident. The
often-heard argument that no self-respecting American would ever pick
strawberries (or whatever) is insulting to both Americans and Mexicans.
We'd have to pay more for strawberries. That's all. It's demand and
supply. The price of strawberries (or whatever) is artificially low
because we're exploiting cheap illegal labor.

I think we have to control our borders. I support a national ID system
and strongly enforced sanctions for businesses that employ illegals. I
don't think it's possible (or humane) to deport all of the approximately
11M illegals who are here now.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

rw wrote in news:hgTYf.733$Fy2.249
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I think illegal immigration drives down wages. That is self-evident. The
often-heard argument that no self-respecting American would ever pick
strawberries (or whatever) is insulting to both Americans and Mexicans.
We'd have to pay more for strawberries. That's all. It's demand and
supply. The price of strawberries (or whatever) is artificially low
because we're exploiting cheap illegal labor.


Not only that, but if you give the migrant workers a means of recourse that
won't get them booted out of the country, wouldn't they want more wages,
and god forbid, benefits?? It seems like every discussion of "guest
workers" seems to leave this out of the equation. Hell, having migrant
workers making minimum wage would be a huge deal, and I'm not sure that
citizens wouldn't do this work for federal minimum. Do we waive minimum
wage for guest workers?

I don't know which side I'm coming down on, but I haven't seen very frank
discussions yet. I do know I don't see anything wrong with enforcing the
border-- it's the "how many do we let it" and "what do we do with those
that are already here" issues that I have trouble with.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Scott Seidman wrote:
rw wrote in news:hgTYf.733$Fy2.249
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:


I think illegal immigration drives down wages. That is self-evident. The
often-heard argument that no self-respecting American would ever pick
strawberries (or whatever) is insulting to both Americans and Mexicans.
We'd have to pay more for strawberries. That's all. It's demand and
supply. The price of strawberries (or whatever) is artificially low
because we're exploiting cheap illegal labor.



Not only that, but if you give the migrant workers a means of recourse that
won't get them booted out of the country, wouldn't they want more wages,
and god forbid, benefits??

Not only that, but illegal immigration drives down wages not only for
the jobs that illegals do (picking strawberries, or whatever), but for
every low skilled job. If low-skill labor isn't being used to pick
strawberries (or whatever) because of illegal labor, then there is a
larger legal, low-skill labor pool for all other higher-paying jobs.
That results in lower wages for those jobs. It's simple supply and demand.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Since I started checking roff, a few years back, nearly ever news topic
has come up here and resulted in the usual name calling and nastiness that
makes the place so endearing to us all.

But, I believe that the current turmoil over immigration is a very
important topic .... yet it goes unmentioned ...

I'm less interested in starting a war, than in why one hasn't
spontaneously combustion-ed

subject too touchy?

subject too gray without the blacks and whites that right-wingers can
grasp G? -- that G indicates I'm just kidding




fwiw, every single very rich, very 'conservative' person I know here in
ArnoldLand, has a staff of illegals for some jobs

One of my favorite stories is an argument I had with a friend. We were on
one of his daddy's huge ranches, ( literally as far as the eye can see
from the top of the highest point around). He went into Brainless
Conservative Argument #4 ( the one that goes along the lines of 'rich
people shouldn't be taxed because THEIR money is used to create jobs' ...
{ unlike the money I spend }).

I looked him in the eye and asked ( name changed ), "Fred, this ranch
represents millions of dollars, how many jobs are all those millions
supporting?"

Answer? ..... 4 ranch hands ... all illegals

It has never been surprising and it never ceases to be amazing that so many
millions of people with absolutely no imagination and even less sense of
history can unfailiningly allow themselves to get worked into a lather over
one non-issue after another while their world crumbles around them. This
country has never done without cheap immigrant labor......legal or
otherwise, it really is immaterial......and nobody who matters is about to
try. As a matter of fact, once could make an extremely good argument for
the proposition that the United States of America wouldn't even exist
without a never-ending stream of cheap immigrant laborers from the late 16th
century on. We know this is true because it has been done......many, many
times.

But then, none of that really has anything to do with the reason for
political trolls, does it?

Wolfgang

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote ...
snip

We could end illegal
immigration tomorrow if we really wanted to. All it would
take is to make the hiring of an illegal a felony punishable
by 10 years in jail for each illegal hired.


After 12 years of corporate (chain -- puke) restaurant management, I am
convinced that nothing could be less feasible.

How are you gonna do this? Short of a national ID system, akin to the "tofu
sticks" video you posted here a while ago (and sure seemed opposed to, btw),
it is not possible.

Better IDs? Maybe, but while I never knowingly hired an illegal, I'm pretty
darned sure I did at some point. I checked the green card, checked the
social security card, and filled out the I-9 for each hire. I signed the
little statement at the end of the form indicating that in essence, the IDs
looked real to me. Was I supposed to be the ID police? I should go to prison
because of a good fake?

The best enforcement I ever saw (and I saw a bit -- restaurants are extreme
INS/ICE targets, probably rightfully so) was a very simple one. Every "X"
months, corporations with over "Y" employees were required to turn the SSNs
over to the IRS for a check. Fakes, ones that showed up in multiple
geographic locales, ones belonging to the recently deceased, etc., 'bounced'
back, and the employer was required to either verify (and show supporting
documentation) or send the employee packing.

(I tried to find some page describing this, but cannot)

Dan

Daniel-San wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote ...
snip

We could end illegal
immigration tomorrow if we really wanted to. All it would
take is to make the hiring of an illegal a felony punishable
by 10 years in jail for each illegal hired.


After 12 years of corporate (chain -- puke) restaurant management, I am
convinced that nothing could be less feasible. ...

How are you gonna do this? Short of a national ID system, akin to the "tofu
sticks" video you posted here a while ago (and sure seemed opposed to, btw),
it is not possible.

Better IDs? Maybe, but while I never knowingly hired an illegal, I'm pretty
darned sure I did at some point. I checked the green card, checked the
social security card, and filled out the I-9 for each hire. I signed the
little statement at the end of the form indicating that in essence, the IDs
looked real to me. Was I supposed to be the ID police? I should go to prison
because of a good fake?

I live in a college town and fake IDs are no excuse. If the
police find underage drinkers in the bar both the patron and
the bar get fines no matter how good the fake IDs. If there
was incentive enough, that is punishment enough, all illegal
immigrants would be out of work tomorrow and we wouldn't have
to ship them back, they'd be out of here on the next bus if
they didn't have work.

The best enforcement I ever saw (and I saw a bit -- restaurants are extreme
INS/ICE targets, probably rightfully so) was a very simple one. Every "X"
months, corporations with over "Y" employees were required to turn the SSNs
over to the IRS for a check. Fakes, ones that showed up in multiple
geographic locales, ones belonging to the recently deceased, etc., 'bounced'
back, and the employer was required to either verify (and show supporting
documentation) or send the employee packing.

Where there's a will there's a way.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote ...
Daniel-San wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote ...
snip

We could end illegal
immigration tomorrow if we really wanted to. All it would
take is to make the hiring of an illegal a felony punishable
by 10 years in jail for each illegal hired.


After 12 years of corporate (chain -- puke) restaurant management, I am
convinced that nothing could be less feasible. ...

How are you gonna do this? Short of a national ID system, akin to the
"tofu sticks" video you posted here a while ago (and sure seemed opposed
to, btw), it is not possible.

Better IDs? Maybe, but while I never knowingly hired an illegal, I'm
pretty darned sure I did at some point. I checked the green card, checked
the social security card, and filled out the I-9 for each hire. I signed
the little statement at the end of the form indicating that in essence,
the IDs looked real to me. Was I supposed to be the ID police? I should
go to prison because of a good fake?

I live in a college town and fake IDs are no excuse.

I've been thrown out of a few of those bars....

If the
police find underage drinkers in the bar both the patron and
the bar get fines no matter how good the fake IDs.

Not entirely true. I'm not sure if Chambana has some sort of local
ordinance, but Illinois state law is that a fake ID is an affirmative
defense, provided the bar can prove that they checked the ID, and that it
looked real, etc.

"However, no agent or employee of the licensee or employee [...] shall be
disciplined or discharged for selling or furnishing liquor to a person under
21 years of age if the agent or employee demanded and was shown, before
furnishing liquor to a person under 21 years of age, adequate written
evidence of age [...] including but not limited to a motor vehicle
operator's license, [...] This paragraph, however, shall not apply if the
agent or employee accepted the written evidence knowing it to be false or
fraudulent."

(http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...023500050K6-16)


If there
was incentive enough, that is punishment enough, all illegal
immigrants would be out of work tomorrow and we wouldn't have
to ship them back, they'd be out of here on the next bus if
they didn't have work.


And so would many legal residents. If I was gonna go to jail for accepting a
fake green card, I would accept *no* green cards. Now we've replaced the
problem -- no one with a green card will be hired.


The best enforcement I ever saw (and I saw a bit -- restaurants are
extreme INS/ICE targets, probably rightfully so) was a very simple one.
Every "X" months, corporations with over "Y" employees were required to
turn the SSNs over to the IRS for a check. Fakes, ones that showed up in
multiple geographic locales, ones belonging to the recently deceased,
etc., 'bounced' back, and the employer was required to either verify (and
show supporting documentation) or send the employee packing.

Where there's a will there's a way.

Agreed, but I don't think punishing employers who make an effort to comply
is the right answer. Again, short of a national ID system akin to the tofu
sticks video, it can't be done at the employer level.

Dan

"rw" wrote in message
link.net...

Ø


Not only that, but illegal immigration drives down wages not only for
the jobs that illegals do (picking strawberries, or whatever), but for
every low skilled job. If low-skill labor isn't being used to pick
strawberries (or whatever) because of illegal labor, then there is a
larger legal, low-skill labor pool for all other higher-paying jobs.
That results in lower wages for those jobs. It's simple supply and demand.



I happen to live in a county that in the last census, the Census bureau
reported over 36% of residents were (euphemistically) "Born in another
country".



This influx has had an effect that extends from the ridiculous (local
supermarkets now put a sugar glaze on butter croissants - yuck) , to the
serious - namely the dramatic increase in violent crimes, the drug trade and
gang activity.



You may imagine that we have a huge need for strawberry pickers (or
whatever) here, but the truth is most illegal's fill jobs in construction,
services, retail, and like occupations.



Jobs that are attractive to average Americans when they pay a decent wage,
but by hiring an illegal, you get a motivated, hardworking employee at a
wage that most legal residents would be hard pressed to support a meaningful
lifestyle on.