OT In defense of pirates ...

On Apr 13, 4:48*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
DaveS wrote:
On Apr 13, 2:51 pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
DaveS wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Another side of the story:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann...-lied-to-abo_b....
I am not sympathetic. They grab our merchant ships, we should kill em
whenever we can.
Hell yeah, kill all those cowardly mother****ers. I mean what a bunch
of worthless girly men. The Japs come in with their trawlers and take
all their fish illegally and what do those wimps do ? Nada. Not a
goddamn thing. If they had any balls at all they'd build a long range
bomber and an atomic bomb and nuke hell out of the ****in' Japs like
real men. Hell, that's what *we* did and what's good enough for 'Murica
is good enough for those Somali *******s.

--
Ken Fortenberry

There have been lots of mistakes in Somalia. The USAs most recent
mistake was to pay the Ethiopians to invade and take down the emerging
"Islamic Courts" government (using the term loosely) because we were
backing another bunch of clowns further north who had no base of armed
support. If we would have just let things happen we could have
negotiated/bribed the Islamic Courts into taking out the pirates who
were a minor nuisance at the time, and aided them in remounting a
coast guard and fishing zone protection operation.

The "pirates" are still a minor nuisance. It's only American hubris
and American macho swaggering that elevated the targeting of an
American cargo ship to a national security issue. Most reasonable
folks agree that so long as the pirates don't harm anyone, and they
haven't, it's just good sense to pay the pittance and move along.

Unfortunately that option was not taken by the Bushies so we are where
we are, and that is what we have to work with. It's just plain
unacceptable to let the pirates stand in the way of all the food aid
operations in East Africa. ...

Give me a break. The "pirates", one of whom was all of 16 years old,
had no idea what was on the cargo ship or under what flag it was flying.

Is there more than a bit of hypocracy going
on in regards to ripping off the fish? Ya You Betcha. And its not just
the Japanese (easy with the J_p stuff please. I am a member of the
JACL, and we just dedicated the internment memorial here). It is also
the Spanish and those pirate fishing/whaling operations typically
bankrolled with Norwegian money

Yeah well, **** the Japs and the Spanish and the Norwegians and the
Italian mafia too. The point being killing all Somalis whenever we have
the chance isn't going to solve the underlying problem.

Whats new. It also bugs me that all the cell phones used on the planet
use minerals/metals mined and marketed thru warlords who have turned
the Eastern Congo into the worlds worst blood bath and slave state for
the last 10 years. Hello Nokia, Apple etc, etc etc. They all are doing
business with zip degrees of separation from some of the worst
*******s on the planet. I am waiting for the indignation, protests,
and boycotts to start in the tech community with baited breath. I
don't hear anything from Libs or Wingnuts on this outrage.

Yeah well, start a new thread about US subsidized warlords in the Congo.
This thread is about Somalia.

--
Ken Fortenberry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well first I don't think I implied we should kill all Somalis, but I
have no problem with going after those that would kill our citizens
and attack our civilian merchant marine. Our right to that reaction is
basic to our sovereignty as a nation. Obama was briefed something like
17 times on the situation, and authorized use of force to free the
American twice. The Somali "Elders" we were negotiating with were not
into releasing the Captain or turning over the kidnappers for law
enforcement type action in Kenya, and the captors had already shot at
the captain once.. You do know that the Indian, French and one other
Navy has already had armed run-ins with these folks before, right? One
hostage was killed recently.

And second, on the Congo thing, maybe you are right.

Dave
Hang in there.

Caca snipped.

Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. When the pirates come into the effective range of
that .50 (about 2000 yards), a short burst should easily dissuade
anyone from being a threat. You could also have another gunner with a
50 cal M107 (probably what the Seals used in rescuing our captain).
If they insist, the gunner could cut the small craft in half with such
a weapon and the M107 gunner could pick and choose the threats. Works
for me. Leave the ships alone and the pirates can live as long as
they want. Really simple when you think about it.

And, there are plenty of mercenaries world-wide that would/could do
the job.

Dave

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Caca snipped.

Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. When the pirates come into the effective range of
that .50 (about 2000 yards), a short burst should easily dissuade
anyone from being a threat. You could also have another gunner with a
50 cal M107 (probably what the Seals used in rescuing our captain).
If they insist, the gunner could cut the small craft in half with such
a weapon and the M107 gunner could pick and choose the threats. Works
for me. Leave the ships alone and the pirates can live as long as
they want. Really simple when you think about it.

And, there are plenty of mercenaries world-wide that would/could do
the job.

Dave




Have gun, will travel.

Wire John.

On Apr 13, 5:43*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
Caca snipped.

Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. *When the pirates come into the effective range of
that .50 (about 2000 yards), a short burst should easily dissuade
anyone from being a threat. *You could also have another gunner with a
50 cal M107 (probably what the Seals used in rescuing our captain).
If they insist, the gunner could cut the small craft in half with such
a weapon and the M107 gunner could pick and choose the threats. *Works
for me. *Leave the ships alone and the pirates can live as long as
they want. *Really simple when you think about it.

And, there are plenty of mercenaries world-wide that would/could do
the job. *

Dave

Dave,
Given that ~ 20,000 ships annually pass through those waters and the
pirates only got 111 ships last year (70 some so far this year), the
economic costs (let alone the legal, moral, safety - if an oil
tanker- and other considerations) of providing trained armed security
and weaponry (at least 3 expensive - probably need 6 for very large
ships - trained extra crew members + night vision goggles + the
weapons themselves) for every ship plying those waters would exceed
the money paid out in ransom. The piracy needs to be stopped but
there are probably better ways to do it.

Ken,
As valid as the grievances that the Somalis have are, they cannot
justify outright theft and extortion. When they travel 200 and more
miles from their coast just to seek out their prey of merchant ships
for the lucrative returns they provide, they cannot claim that they
are protecting the integrity of their country or doing it because they
are hungry. Reports I have read say that many of the pirates are
building villas and buying luxury cars with the income from their
piracy. If true, and I have little reason to doubt the reports,
that's greed not hunger. BTW although the Somalian piracy is in the
news - the problem is almost as bad around in the Malacca straits and
other restricted waterways in SE Asia.

Bob Weinberger

Bob Weinberger

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 13, 5:43*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
Caca snipped.

Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. *When the pirates come into the effective range of
that .50 (about 2000 yards), a short burst should easily dissuade
anyone from being a threat. *You could also have another gunner with a
50 cal M107 (probably what the Seals used in rescuing our captain).
If they insist, the gunner could cut the small craft in half with such
a weapon and the M107 gunner could pick and choose the threats. *Works
for me. *Leave the ships alone and the pirates can live as long as
they want. *Really simple when you think about it.

And, there are plenty of mercenaries world-wide that would/could do
the job. *

Dave

Dave,
Given that ~ 20,000 ships annually pass through those waters and the
pirates only got 111 ships last year

snippage

Aw, come on, Bob. I was all ready to have some good fun with the
sexual intellect, and you bud in and spoil it. Shooooooot!

Dave

wrote:
...
Ken,
As valid as the grievances that the Somalis have are, they cannot
justify outright theft and extortion. When they travel 200 and more
miles from their coast just to seek out their prey of merchant ships
for the lucrative returns they provide, they cannot claim that they
are protecting the integrity of their country or doing it because they
are hungry. Reports I have read say that many of the pirates are
building villas and buying luxury cars with the income from their
piracy. If true, and I have little reason to doubt the reports,
that's greed not hunger. BTW although the Somalian piracy is in the
news - the problem is almost as bad around in the Malacca straits and
other restricted waterways in SE Asia.

There's no doubt that what was once desperation is now calculated
piracy but everything I've read about Somali piracy leads me to
believe that the guys building villas never leave the shore. The
teenagers making the acrobatic climbs onto moving ships are not
in the market for Porsches, they're just looking to survive.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Apr 13, 6:30*pm, wrote:

Dave,
Given that ~ 20,000 ships annually pass through those waters and the
pirates only got 111 ships last year (70 some so far this year), the
economic costs (let alone the legal, moral, safety - if an oil
tanker- *and other considerations) of providing trained armed security
and weaponry (at least 3 expensive - probably need 6 for very large
ships - trained extra crew members + night vision goggles + the
weapons themselves) for every ship plying those waters would exceed
the money paid out in ransom. *The piracy needs to be stopped but
there are probably better ways to do it.

Ken,
*As valid as the grievances that the Somalis have are, they cannot
justify outright theft and extortion. When they travel 200 and more
miles from their coast just to seek out their prey of merchant ships
for the lucrative returns they provide, they cannot claim that they
are protecting the integrity of their country or doing it because they
are hungry. *Reports I have read say that many of the pirates are
building villas and buying luxury cars with the income from their
piracy. *If true, and I have little reason to doubt the reports,
that's greed not hunger. BTW although the Somalian piracy is in the
news - the problem is almost as bad around in the Malacca straits and
other restricted waterways in SE Asia.

Bob Weinberger

Bob Weinberger- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Picking up on what Bob said in the first paragraph. . . .

The disruption is bigger and more significant than has thus far been
acknowledged.
First, Mombasa, down the coast in Kenya is the most important semi
modern port in East Africa. We are dealing with a continuing
harassment of one of the Worlds and certainly Africa's, main trade
routes. Mombasa is THE main port for food aide, and a good portion of
the commodities that Central and East Africa support themselves with.

Second: You want some real ****? How about shredding the supply chain
that feeds Mombasa and triggering a famine that spreads across Africa,
with massive waves of hunger and instability driven migration. A
disaster in short. And the kind of hunger disaster that has happened
in scale before in modern history. It is simply not acceptable that
some street gang-bangers-with-outboards get to threaten the other
couple hundred millions of people in that part of Africa.

Third: Certainly Somalia needs some form of government. And at this
point just about any form of *******-on-a-camel centralized rule will
do. I don't see that its our job to decide for them, shell out tons of
money, or do anything on the ground but just let it happen. Even if
its the "Islamic Courts" I don't give a ****. But what we need to do
NOW for our own interests, and what we can do cheaply is cull some of
the bad guys, the arsonists, the few hundred that are playing with
matches on the African powder keg. This is why we have a Navy.

Fourth: The fishing thing. Hey, its not us this time. There ARE other
*******s in the World folks. In this Case Japan, Spain, Norway, and a
few other are the rapacious interlopers on the Somali offshore
resource. And its a problem in other places where they exploit
weakness or corruption. Some aide to the ultra poor countries to buy/
train for better coast guard and resource protection might be a better
aide buy than repeat food aide. But right now these guys are pirates
who have gone far over the line. And think about it . . .right now
they have lots of new boats, crews, a mother ship or two, weapons,
excellent communications, and yet . . . are they protecting a Somali
fishing fleet? Nope. Why? They are pirates.

Dave
Where is JR. He knows this part of the World, ditto Riverman?

Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. *Dave

I guess you can argue anything......but the Somali pirates are pirates
and I am sure not taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Wrong
is wrong.

Have to agree with Dave. Quite inexpensive given the alternative.

Man's a sorry lot...

Guy

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:28:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Arm every merchant vessel with a 50 cal. machine gun along with a
qualified gunner. *Dave

I guess you can argue anything......but the Somali pirates are pirates
and I am sure not taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Wrong
is wrong.

Have to agree with Dave. Quite inexpensive given the alternative.

OK, just for grins...

One or two guys, with a single heavy machine gun on a 500-plus foot ship with
low freeboard. Now, add into the equation that those one or two guys are hired
guns. What you have is a recipe for a total, complete cluster****. If you are
in favor of a armed response, this is not the way to go about it. And
huffingtonpost nonsense aside, these aren't farmers with pitchfolks, they are
pirates with real weapons (regardless of whether or not some might have once
been farmers/fishermen). Let me ask you this - do you favor putting mercenaries
in _your_ local bank - you know, the one where you and your family bank - with
orders to open fire on any potential robbers? If not, why not?

HTH,
R

Man's a sorry lot...

Guy

On Apr 13, 11:06*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:28:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

One or two guys, with a single heavy machine gun on a 500-plus foot ship with
low freeboard. *Now, add into the equation that those one or two guys are hired
guns. *What you have is a recipe for a total, complete cluster****. *If you are
in favor of a armed response, this is not the way to go about it. *And
huffingtonpost nonsense aside, these aren't farmers with pitchfolks, they are
pirates with real weapons (regardless of whether or not some might have once
been farmers/fishermen). *Let me ask you this - do you favor putting mercenaries
in _your_ local bank - you know, the one where you and your family bank - with
orders to open fire on any potential robbers? *If not, why not?

HTH,
R


... and it would then only be a matter of time before the guys in the
villas bought some real weaponry and set a tanker ot two on fire from
5-10 miles away .... and then we'd escalate again .... and the
military contractors would have yet another Business Opportunity to
soak the taxpayer.


Man's a sorry lot...

Guy