TOM KIRKMAN, RODBUILDING.ORG BB, MY DECEMBER 1,2003 POST, ETHICS

I found a good deal for rod support roller o-rings at C & G Tackle
Outlet, which are
selling for fifty cents ($.50) less than Renzetti's current price.
Renzetti is
'Kirkman's sponsor'; C & G Tackle Outlet can more than likely be
termed: 'less
than Kirkman's sponsor', as i have been summarily informed.

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gary,

The owner of C&G Tackle has a history of attacking me and spreading
rumors
and falsehoods designed expressly to harm RodMaker Magazine and
RodBuilding.org. He is free to do that, but I will not provide him
with
the means to do so. I spent much time promoting his former companies,
Clemens Tackle and RodCrafters and was repaid by his distasteful
conduct.

I will not go into this any further. I am the owner of
Rodbuilding.org
and
have 100% authority on what can, and cannot, be posted there. My
record
and work on behalf of the rod building industry is beyond reproach. I
will
not allow any group or individual to destroy what I have done on
behalf
of
the rod building craft.

It is also important that I protect and promote those companies who
have
been willing to foot the bill to provide what most builders feel is a
truly
excellent site. It isn't free - somebody has to pay for it and when
non-sponsors take an unfair advantage in promoting their products on a
board that others are paying for, I will put my foot down.


Sincerely,

Tom Kirkman"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

I find your email to be ambiguous hyperbole. I am not interested
in your personal life, nor the soap operas or the seeming vendettas
which may abound therein; however, i am interested
in giving all rodcrafters the best information i have.

In addition, i have no wish to post something you find so abhorrent
on your bulletin board.

As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Thank you in advance,

Sincerely,

bluestonerod

On 6 Dec 2003 17:00:48 -0800, (Bluestone) wrote:



As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?


Looks as if you accidentally stepped in something. Wipe it off your
shoe and go on with life. While the Web forum owner could have been
more tactful in his email to you, he's got the right to run his board
his way. You've got the right to use it or not use it.

Without his sponsors (or his own business, if his business is the
board sponsor) he might not be able to have a board forum going. He
may get additional incentives, too. Sounds as if he was quite
straightforward about that. It's all very serious business to the
manufacturers and retailers of products. In this case it also seems
as if there's a serious personal vendetta going on as well, which he
probably wasn't as straightforward about, but was quite angry about.
So instead of a gentle clue or two, you got a bit nearer the 'up aside
the head' response. I've seen lots worse if it's any consolation.
Lots worse.

By the way, it's regarded as very bad manners to directly quote email
on the 'Net. As you've stated that you're new to all this, it'll
probably pass this time as easily with others as it did with me, but
some dreadful flames can result. It's best to find a way to paraphrase
anything you get in private emails. You might want to subscribe to
news.announce.newusers. It'll help you on the 'Net, but the rules of
each forum on the Web that you might drop into can be completely
different. And go to Google and look up 'Nettiquette'. While it's
mostly a translation of good manners in any social setting to
electronic typing, there are a few oddities it helps to be aware of.
--

rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing.
Often taunted by trout.
Only a fool would refuse to believe in luck. Only a damn fool would rely on it.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Mr. Perez -

Anyone who knows anything about rod building knows that Tom K. is a
first class guy. He's provided so many things that we never had before
like a full size magazine and the very best internet rod building site
on the planet. His site is provided free for all of us to use and
enjoy and there's no other place that is as friendly or easy to use.
It's a class act all the way!

But there are some who try to take advantage of his generousity and
kindness. I guess you touched a nerve and he just had had enough. I
thought his response was a bit harsher than what you usually hear from
him but not out of line at all considering what some have tried to do
him and his board.

I think he was right to remove the post you made about the products of
a non sponsor and your own post was very harsh and uncalled for. That
sort of thing doesn't go down well on Tom's board and I'm glad he runs
a tight ship. I have a high regard for the many fine sponsors on his
board and he is right to protect them. After all they pay to provide
that board for all of us and we want it to stay just like it is.

You owe Tom an apology for posting a private email on a newsgroup. I
don't think he would do that to you but he is a professional.

John

John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.


Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~


Carry on.

bluestonerod

Mr. Perez:

I believe you have made some very bad assumptions about how internet
rod building forums operate.

Boards cost money and most rely on sponsors for funding. Now if a
non-sponsor can get advertising and promotion at no charge on those
boards, then those who are sponsors will stop paying a fee to be
sponsors. At that point, the money runs out and the board shuts down.

Tom Kirkman has the finest internet rod building board there is. He
has done us all a good deed to create this wonderful site where more
rod building information is exchanged than anywhere else. If his
sponsors get mad and leave, then the board will shut down and we will
lose the #1 rod building site on the internet.

Boards that are not moderated are hateful cesspools of arguments and
problems. Tom's board runs smooth as silk because he has set some
rules and is quick to enforce them. I applaud his sense of fairness
but realize he has to protect the interest of his sponsors. They pay
for the board and are entitled to preferential treatment.

There are also a small handful of troublemakers that he is right to
keep out. They have ruined other boards and no one wants a repeat of
that at rodbuilding.org.

I hope you will send Tom an apology. He's a super friendly guy and
I'm sure he'll be willing to overlook your mistake.

Best of luck to you.

Aurthur Mercer

lid wrote in message . ..
On 6 Dec 2003 17:00:48 -0800, (Bluestone) wrote:


As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Looks as if you accidentally stepped in something.

Yes, and i have now made the decisive step out of it. Thank you,
cyli, for the most thoughtful, relevant and responsive post i have yet
received.

So instead of a gentle clue or two, you got a bit nearer the 'up aside
the head' response. I've seen lots worse if it's any consolation.

While i surely don't mind any "up 'side the head" responses, i don't
find it necessary to respond exactly in kind.

By the way, it's regarded as very bad manners to directly quote email
on the 'Net.

I was given rather more information than i wish to ever know re
censorship on anyone's board, and, one individual's reasoning behind
said censorship. For the sake of clarity, i chose to post the email i
received and be called 'ill mannered' rather than paraphrase the board
admin/owner's reply and be 'misunderstood'.

Now, with the motto in mind: ~~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME HERE
EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH WHOM THE BOARD OWNER HAS A PERSONAL
VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~~, I shall choose my forums more wisely.

Thank you particularly, cyli, for your well done and thoroughly
comprehensive post to my questions.

Sincerely,

Bluestonerod

"Bluestone" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.


Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~


Carry on.

bluestonerod

You can not expect free expression on a monitored board, or even on this
one. If you go beyond the limits of what somebody finds acceptable, and
they manage to contact and convince your ISP of the same, then not only do
you lose your "free expression", but also your access to usenet or the
internet.

It does not matter whether you are right or wrong. Except to you, and
perhaps a few others.

Publishing your annoyance, or attempting to gain some sort of revenge on the
purported pepetrator, on other boards, is also likely to prove extremely
contra.productive. Quite apart from getting some other people who are
basically not interested, annoyed at you. Believe me, it is really just a
waste of time and effort. Some things are as they are, one is obliged to
accept them, or at least is best served in doing so.

TL
MC

"Mike Connor" wrote...
"Bluestone" wrote...
John,

From your answer i can see you do not read the
as per sponsors pay more atten: when reading strings on the BB.

Its not a matter of agreement, its the point of free expression.
Thank you for yours.

Rodbuilders.org new motto:


~~~~~~~~ALL KNOWLEDGE WELCOME ON THIS BOARD EXCEPT FROM THOSE WITH
WHOM KIRKMAN HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA~~~~~~~~~

Carry on.

bluestonerod

You can not expect free expression on a monitored board, or even on this
one. If you go beyond the limits of what somebody finds acceptable, and
they manage to contact and convince your ISP of the same, then not only do
you lose your "free expression", but also your access to usenet or the
internet.

It does not matter whether you are right or wrong. Except to you, and
perhaps a few others.

Publishing your annoyance, or attempting to gain some sort of revenge on the
purported pepetrator, on other boards, is also likely to prove extremely
contra.productive. Quite apart from getting some other people who are
basically not interested, annoyed at you. Believe me, it is really just a
waste of time and effort. Some things are as they are, one is obliged to
accept them, or at least is best served in doing so.

Seems as good a place as any to say "Welcome back, Mike." It's good to see you
posting again.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

I'd like to thank you for your post on the 'Ethics' of this gentleman's
website...as you've just done some free advertising for what appears to be a
fine site run by an upstanding individual. I've been collecting information
to build my own rod and for whatever reason, had not yet run upon this fine
site. It appears to be exactly what I'm looking for -- a good site run by
someone who is fair and honest. I've bookmarked it for future reference and
won't be hesitant to pay an extra $0.50 for honesty and integrity.

Have a good day.


"Bluestone" wrote in message
om...
I found a good deal for rod support roller o-rings at C & G Tackle
Outlet, which are
selling for fifty cents ($.50) less than Renzetti's current price.
Renzetti is
'Kirkman's sponsor'; C & G Tackle Outlet can more than likely be
termed: 'less
than Kirkman's sponsor', as i have been summarily informed.

When i posted this information on rodbuilding.org, Kirkman removed my
post.
Many posts with various views followed: Kirkman removed them all, and
sent me the following email:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gary,

The owner of C&G Tackle has a history of attacking me and spreading
rumors
and falsehoods designed expressly to harm RodMaker Magazine and
RodBuilding.org. He is free to do that, but I will not provide him
with
the means to do so. I spent much time promoting his former companies,
Clemens Tackle and RodCrafters and was repaid by his distasteful
conduct.

I will not go into this any further. I am the owner of
Rodbuilding.org
and
have 100% authority on what can, and cannot, be posted there. My
record
and work on behalf of the rod building industry is beyond reproach. I
will
not allow any group or individual to destroy what I have done on
behalf
of
the rod building craft.

It is also important that I protect and promote those companies who
have
been willing to foot the bill to provide what most builders feel is a
truly
excellent site. It isn't free - somebody has to pay for it and when
non-sponsors take an unfair advantage in promoting their products on a
board that others are paying for, I will put my foot down.


Sincerely,

Tom Kirkman"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

I find your email to be ambiguous hyperbole. I am not interested
in your personal life, nor the soap operas or the seeming vendettas
which may abound therein; however, i am interested
in giving all rodcrafters the best information i have.

In addition, i have no wish to post something you find so abhorrent
on your bulletin board.

As a newcomer to boards and newsgroups, (though i have
been building rods and teaching rodbuilding for over 20 yrs), i would
appreciate
all relevant responses to this situation. How far does one go to
censor a fifty cent
savings? One's sponsor would object?

Thank you in advance,

Sincerely,

bluestonerod

"Tim J." schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news2PAb.453726$HS4.3558261@attbi_s01...
SNIP
Seems as good a place as any to say "Welcome back, Mike." It's good to see
you
posting again.
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj


Thank you. Surprising how one misses this place, and how soon one feels "at
home" again in it. Decidedly odd, and very mixed feelings involved. One does
indeed regard many of the people here as old friends. Even though I have
never met most of them, and never will.

I am in rather a quandary as it happens. Perhaps an identity crisis? Who am
I , what am I , why am I? I don´t really know. I have not been fishing for
quite a while, and the few times I did go, I was not particularly
enthusiastic. I have not even tied any flies, or built any tackle for a
long time. All my stuff lies unused and ignored in various places about the
house. Having spent nearly all my life passionately engaged in fishing, or
at least some aspect of it, this is a most unfortunate turn of events.
Mainly because there are no alternatives. I don´t really know much about
anything else, certainly not in the same way, nor was I ever much interested
in anything else. One can not turn the clock back, and I can not think of
any even remotely similar pastime which would be so absorbing anyway. It
would be most regrettable to lose interest altogether.

Nevertheless, it is good to talk about it again at least. I will just have
to wait and see what transpires. Perhaps my enthusiasm will return. Maybe I
am just getting old faster than I thought.

Behold the winding, dancing, sparkling stream,
ethereal, enchanting, as in some joyous youthful dream,
beheld, and then, the all consuming wish,
to carry home the stream´s elusive fish.

But dreams fade rapidly at last, like youth.
Advancing age, and weariness, reveal the truth,
all the battles, and the fish you caught,
mean nothing much, it was not fish you sought.

Peace, contentment, and a happy life,
free of troubles, sickness, and all other strife,
fishing may indeed these earthly woes transcend,
as angler makes his way around another river bend.

`Tis sad that one may not just simply fish one´s life away,
ignoring all the cares and problems, always bright and gay,
but life intrudes most rudely, and forces one´s attention,
sometimes overpowering, defying comprehension.

Dreams are scattered then, borne away on evil winds,
as humdrum life the once great hope and joy rescinds,
ambition dies, one sinks in mournful contemplation,
of how things were, of each and every revelation.

Knowledge gained, seems worthless on reflection,
one is enchained for hours and days by useless circumspection.
a rod, a box of flies, once source of magical enjoyment,
now sit ignored, unused, no point in their deployment.

"Hope springs eternal", or so ´tis often lightly said,
even when the wings of spirit, have feet of lead.
I will yet take my rod and flies to some bright stream again,
I know I will, all I do not know, is when?

TL
MC