Seal hunt begins; IFAW bears witness

"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:SjSgc.34826$mn3.9966@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
Harp seals and Cod
Questions and Answers

SNIP Answers to questions posed by those who've done no research
and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backg...hq-ac01b_e.htm
__________________________________________________ ________
Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
Findings highlighted in the report include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
consuming.
__________________________________________________ ________

I see no scapegoating.

'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
fish stocks were vanishing. '
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=041304105510

So, let me get this straight. When looking for Canadian Goverment
opinions, one should look to 'indolink' an indian news site (Even
considering they don't provide a quote) as opposed to say . . .
the Canadian Government.

Face it pearl, the Canadian Government has been falsely accused
of 'scapegoating' seals as the cause of the decline in fish stocks.

As far as John Efford goes. Even in the 'indolink' news story, he
didn't accuse the seal of being the cause for the decline in cod
populations. He simply noted that:
1. The seal population has reached a record high (since recording
began).
2. The commercial fish stock is vanishing.
Both of which are true. It's not up to you to put words into his (or
anyone elses) mouth, like you do so often.

"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:NiVgc.35105$mn3.3699@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:SjSgc.34826$mn3.9966@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
Harp seals and Cod
Questions and Answers

SNIP Answers to questions posed by those who've done no research
and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backg...hq-ac01b_e.htm
__________________________________________________ ________
Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
Findings highlighted in the report include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
consuming.
__________________________________________________ ________

I see no scapegoating.

'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
fish stocks were vanishing. '
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=041304105510

So, let me get this straight. When looking for Canadian Goverment
opinions, one should look to 'indolink' an indian news site (Even
considering they don't provide a quote) as opposed to say . . .
the Canadian Government.

Face it pearl, the Canadian Government has been falsely accused
of 'scapegoating' seals as the cause of the decline in fish stocks.

As far as John Efford goes. Even in the 'indolink' news story, he
didn't accuse the seal of being the cause for the decline in cod
populations. He simply noted that:
1. The seal population has reached a record high (since recording
began).
2. The commercial fish stock is vanishing.
Both of which are true. It's not up to you to put words into his (or
anyone elses) mouth, like you do so often.

Please. As if a link wasn't implied. And if you don't like the source,
see; http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877
"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks," said Gerry Reid, minister of fisheries
and aquaculture for Newfoundland at the time.."

"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:NiVgc.35105$mn3.3699@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:SjSgc.34826$mn3.9966@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
Harp seals and Cod
Questions and Answers

SNIP Answers to questions posed by those who've done no research
and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backg...hq-ac01b_e.htm
__________________________________________________ ________
Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
Findings highlighted in the report include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
consuming.
__________________________________________________ ________

I see no scapegoating.

'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
fish stocks were vanishing. '
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=041304105510

So, let me get this straight. When looking for Canadian Goverment
opinions, one should look to 'indolink' an indian news site (Even
considering they don't provide a quote) as opposed to say . . .
the Canadian Government.

Face it pearl, the Canadian Government has been falsely accused
of 'scapegoating' seals as the cause of the decline in fish stocks.

As far as John Efford goes. Even in the 'indolink' news story, he
didn't accuse the seal of being the cause for the decline in cod
populations. He simply noted that:
1. The seal population has reached a record high (since recording
began).
2. The commercial fish stock is vanishing.
Both of which are true. It's not up to you to put words into his (or
anyone elses) mouth, like you do so often.

Please. As if a link wasn't implied.

A link wasn't implied by John Efford, just like the IFAW veterinary
study never says that 40+% of seals are skinned alive. You poorly
interpret things and then draw false meanings. Like I said before,
that wasn't even a direct quote, who knows how out of context those
statements may have been. They may not even have been said in
the same day.

And if you don't like the source,
see; http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877
"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks," said Gerry Reid, minister of fisheries
and aquaculture for Newfoundland at the time.."

http://www.gov.nf.ca/releases/2003/fishaq/0203n03.htm
"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding the
recovery of those stocks," added Minister Reid. "The seal herd is in
excess of five million, and as the herd continues to enjoy a population
explosion, the cod fishery simultaneously decreases and suffers
higher mortality rates. There are certainly a number of issues which
need to be addressed in dealing with the state of the cod fisheries,
and one of the main factors is the impact of seal predation. An
increase in the TAC will not solve this problem, however it is a step in
the right direction."

As can be seen when he's not being taken out of context, he realises
that this isn't the only problem.

Also, he's a minister for Newfoundland, not Canada. While he has
input into the decisions (much like the IFAW, CVMA, CSA, etc...)
he doesn't make decisions. His was a reactionary statement to
an announcement of a quota increase.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877
"He says the decline in cod stocks is due to overfishing. "There is no
scientific evidence to suggest that harp seals impede their recovery.
That doesn't mean that they aren't - it's just that there's no evidence
to suggest they are," he told New Scientist."

"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:dmXgc.35179$mn3.6524@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:NiVgc.35105$mn3.3699@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:SjSgc.34826$mn3.9966@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote in message ...
Harp seals and Cod
Questions and Answers

SNIP Answers to questions posed by those who've done no research
and would like to pretend Canada is 'scapegoating' the seal

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backg...hq-ac01b_e.htm
__________________________________________________ ________
Impact of Seal Predation on Cod

The 2001 Report of the Eminent Panel on Seal Management concluded
that seals consume large amounts of fish throughout Atlantic Canada,
but there is much less evidence that this predation is having a major
impact on the recovery of most commercial fish stocks.

The findings of the report were not conclusive and many uncertainties
were acknowledged in providing realistic predictions. The Panel
acknowledged that gaining an understanding of the real impact of seals
on the recovery of cod is extremely complex and requires an in-depth
understanding of the marine ecosystem as well as additional research.
Findings highlighted in the report include:

The consumption of cod, and some other commercial species, by seals
in Divisions 2J3KL and 4RS3Pn is so large that a reduction in seal
predation could reasonably be expected to have a substantial effect on
the size of these stocks. However, the extent of this reduction would
have to be large in order for an impact to be observed.

There is not a simple, straight-line relationship between seal predation
and the state of fish populations. The interaction between seals,
groundfish and other species is complex and variable. For instance,
seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod. Moreover,
other factors such as environmental changes and fishing levels must be
considered in trying to determine why cod stocks have not yet recovered.

The harp seal population has grown to the highest level recorded.
Coupled with the fact that the annual TAC has rarely been taken in full,
the panel expects a gradual increase in seal numbers if the current
management approach is maintained.

The current scientific knowledge is insufficient to determine the impact
of a seal cull on cod fisheries in the short, medium or long term. Science
and resource managers question the value of a cull in a fishery driven by
economic market conditions. More importantly, there is no way of
knowing how other predators and prey might respond to a decrease in
the seal population.

Current estimates of cod consumption by seals vary greatly from less
than one per cent to more than 20 per cent of diet, depending on the
type of seal researched, the time of year and location of the studies.
The panel concluded that more comprehensive research needs to be
done to more accurately estimate the amount of cod that seals are
consuming.
__________________________________________________ ________

I see no scapegoating.

'Canadian Natural Resources Minister John Efford said many
claims about the hunt were simply wrong. He argued that the
seal population was exploding - with an estimated 5.2 million
harp seals in the North Atlantic at present – and commercial
fish stocks were vanishing. '
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=041304105510

So, let me get this straight. When looking for Canadian Goverment
opinions, one should look to 'indolink' an indian news site (Even
considering they don't provide a quote) as opposed to say . . .
the Canadian Government.

Face it pearl, the Canadian Government has been falsely accused
of 'scapegoating' seals as the cause of the decline in fish stocks.

As far as John Efford goes. Even in the 'indolink' news story, he
didn't accuse the seal of being the cause for the decline in cod
populations. He simply noted that:
1. The seal population has reached a record high (since recording
began).
2. The commercial fish stock is vanishing.
Both of which are true. It's not up to you to put words into his (or
anyone elses) mouth, like you do so often.

Please. As if a link wasn't implied.

A link wasn't implied by John Efford, just like the IFAW veterinary
study never says that 40+% of seals are skinned alive.

Yes, it does. 42% of clubbed seals were found to have
insufficient cranial damage to render permanently unconscious,
and unless bled immediately (6% of the total), they were.
Of the remaining 58% many may have sustained severe cranial
damage during the skinning (79% of 'hunters' failed to perform
a corneal reflex check). Also, of all those observed being skinned
(counting possibles), nearly 40% were, whether shot or clubbed.

You poorly
interpret things and then draw false meanings.

BS. You refuse to accept the facts of the matter.

Like I said before,
that wasn't even a direct quote, who knows how out of context those
statements may have been. They may not even have been said in
the same day.

Read your own quote below.

And if you don't like the source,
see; http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877
"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks," said Gerry Reid, minister of fisheries
and aquaculture for Newfoundland at the time.."

http://www.gov.nf.ca/releases/2003/fishaq/0203n03.htm
"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding the
recovery of those stocks," added Minister Reid. "The seal herd is in
excess of five million, and as the herd continues to enjoy a population
explosion, the cod fishery simultaneously decreases and suffers
higher mortality rates. There are certainly a number of issues which
need to be addressed in dealing with the state of the cod fisheries,
and one of the main factors is the impact of seal predation. An
increase in the TAC will not solve this problem, however it is a step in
the right direction."

As can be seen when he's not being taken out of context, he realises
that this isn't the only problem.

Who said he did? Quit squirming.

Also, he's a minister for Newfoundland, not Canada. While he has
input into the decisions (much like the IFAW, CVMA, CSA, etc...)
he doesn't make decisions. His was a reactionary statement to
an announcement of a quota increase.

Please. We're not all complete fools, you know.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877
"He says the decline in cod stocks is due to overfishing. "There is no
scientific evidence to suggest that harp seals impede their recovery.
That doesn't mean that they aren't - it's just that there's no evidence
to suggest they are," he told New Scientist."

Said Lavigne, not Reid.

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message

More than five million seals. Thirty pounds of fish per seal per day. Do the
math.

"Invective" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"I R Canuck" wrote in message

More than five million seals. Thirty pounds of fish per seal per day. Do the
math.

Which fish though? Fish eat fish too. What if seals eat
significant amounts of the fish that eat cod? ....

'culling harp seals in an attempt to reduce the predation
on cod could even backfire. Harp seals eat fish like capelin,
which may themselves eat young cod, he says. So culling
harp seals might even boost the number of cod predators.'
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877

'We could benefit from some new thinking on seals, and
a holistic reassessment of the roles played by seals in marine
environments must precede any experiments or new
initiatives that involve deliberately reducing their numbers.

Seal research has been an earlier focus of this committee(3),
and is currently at the forefront again, with the Minister’s
recent announcement of $6 million for a study on the
experimental use of “seal exclusion zones” in an effort to aid
the recovery of depleted cod stocks. Seal research is fine,
but any such proposed “experiments” must not be conducted
without the use of the appropriate scientific “controls.” And I
strongly suggest that this type of experimental seal research not
be undertaken before completing a holistic reassessment of the
roles played by seals in the larger marine ecosystem. Seals
have long lived in marine environments and their overall
contribution to these systems cannot have been negative (or
else they would have been eliminated millions of years ago(4)).
Therefore, although it is counterintuitive to many, the removal
of more seals at this point may not be without added risk to
the health of today’s declining fish stocks.

Positive contributions to ocean health that can be seen to be
made by seals include the production of zooplankton (via the
excretion of vast numbers of live worm eggs(5)), and the
scavenging consumption of dead or dying fish that might otherwise
undergo bacterial decay on bottom, with a resulting dangerous
depletion of oxygen from the water. In an oxygen stressed, low
zooplankton aquatic situation, air-breathing/zooplankton-excreting
marine mammals such as seals may therefore perform a unique
system-stabilizing role by consuming dead or dying fish, while
not removing oxygen from the water or succumbing to hypoxia
themselves.

These observations are intended to suggest some directions in
which the holistic effect of seals (and other marine mammals) on
ocean health might usefully be investigated. They also serve as
a warning of the nature of the adverse impacts on the marine
environment that may result from the removal of seals (less
zooplankton, less oxygen). Seals are an integral part of life in a
healthy ocean, and their actions today appear only to be part
of what naturally occurs when such a living system tries to
recover from damage inflicted on it. As fish eaters, the seals
will actively work towards the stabilization of an ocean
environment that supports fish…but the same cannot be said
for the bacteria that will break down dead fish in the absence
of larger animal consumers such as seals. The recent decision
to allow fishermen to shoot “nuisance seals,” as well as the
planned implementation of “seal exclusion zones” in Atlantic
Canada should be carefully reconsidered in this light. ..'

http://www.fisherycrisis.com/DFO/commons.htm

"pearl" wrote:
"Invective" wrote:
More than five million seals. Thirty pounds of fish per seal per day. Do the
math.

Which fish though? Fish eat fish too. What if seals eat
significant amounts of the fish that eat cod? ....

'culling harp seals in an attempt to reduce the predation
on cod could even backfire. Harp seals eat fish like capelin,
which may themselves eat young cod, he says. So culling
harp seals might even boost the number of cod predators.'
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877

So, you bash any pro-sealer who makes a statement such as . .

"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks" (Gerry Reid)

but not when the IFAW does it . . .

"So culling harp seals might even boost the number of cod
predators" (David Lavigne)

"I R Canuck" wrote in message
news:9CXgc.35180$mn3.6317@clgrps13...
"pearl" wrote:
"Invective" wrote:
More than five million seals. Thirty pounds of fish per seal per day. Do the
math.

Which fish though? Fish eat fish too. What if seals eat
significant amounts of the fish that eat cod? ....

'culling harp seals in an attempt to reduce the predation
on cod could even backfire. Harp seals eat fish like capelin,
which may themselves eat young cod, he says. So culling
harp seals might even boost the number of cod predators.'
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994877

So, you bash any pro-sealer

I might well, should one get near enough.

who makes a statement such as . .

"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks" (Gerry Reid)

By 'those stocks', he means commercial cod fishery stocks.

Read it in context:

'Minister Reid is also encouraged as he sees this announcement
as a small but positive step toward addressing the problem of
seal predation on groundfish stocks. The majority of groundfish
stocks off the province’s coasts have not recovered to
pre-moratorium levels, and it is speculated that the federal
government will this year once again close some cod fisheries
which were reopened in the late 1990's.

"There is no doubt that seal predation on groundfish is impeding
the recovery of those stocks," added Minister Reid. ..'
http://www.gov.nf.ca/releases/2003/fishaq/0203n03.htm

but not when the IFAW does it . . .

"So culling harp seals might even boost the number of cod
predators" (David Lavigne)

Get it? No?