Question about loop leaders?

"Peter Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:48:53 GMT, wrote:


Heavy mono and loops or braided loops with the fly line tip pushed
into the overlapped section and the nail knotted to the fly line
(never trust the heat shrink tube). I use one nail knot right at the
end of the braid for trout and two nail knots for heavier fish.

If a loop system, on the end of a spey line, can turn over a 15' mono
leader and big fly, when cast into the wind, then the hinge theory is
truly BS. It does and it is.

Um, I'm not defending the "hinge theory," but assuming it has some
merit, it would be easier to present a larger (and heavier) fly...


Larger is not always heavier -- low water salmon hooks are quite light
for their size. A full dressed fly on them is quite wind resistant
without a lot of mass. Anyway, yesterday while practicing, I was
casting a "fluffy" (egg yarn on the end of the tippet) into a stiff
wind and it turned over OK.

Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman

rw writes:

Ask the ****heel. Virtually everyone who fishes the San Juan makes at
least a few casts at the Kiddie Hole. Some people camp out there all day.

I caught one fish at the Kiddie Hole and quit fishing because of the condition
of the fish. It's mouth was torn to shreds. Every fish I saw caught was the
same way. Where do you think the San Juan Shuffle started? You would normally
nymph up stream, but you and your ilk stand at the pool, shuffling your feet
and feeding a nymph downstream. Hell, that's not fly fishing. That's nowhere
near a sport. You forget, Steve, I've seen you fish. d;o)

Dave The Repulsive Pirate
(Sorry, Ken. Your day will come again.)

rw writes:

Ask the ****heel. Virtually everyone who fishes the San Juan makes at
least a few casts at the Kiddie Hole. Some people camp out there all day.

I caught one fish at the Kiddie Hole and quit fishing because of the condition
of the fish. It's mouth was torn to shreds. Every fish I saw caught was the
same way. Where do you think the San Juan Shuffle started? You would normally
nymph up stream, but you and your ilk stand at the pool, shuffling your feet
and feeding a nymph downstream. Hell, that's not fly fishing. That's nowhere
near a sport. You forget, Steve, I've seen you fish. d;o)

Dave The Repulsive Pirate
(Sorry, Ken. Your day will come again.)

rw writes:

You're a bragging, double crossing ****heel, Dave, and I'm sick of it.
When you insult me for something as ridiculous as stating why I dislike
loops, I'm coming back with both barrels.

What I have stated is true. You say *I* lured Warren to the clave. It wasn't
my idea. It was someone else who asked me to sell chances on Zimmerman's rod
(the one I purchased from .... I forget his name). I was going to give it away
at Penns, but someone (Willi?) suggest I sell chances to win it and use that
money to help pay Warren's fare. I did that. And lots of folks got to meet
Warren. What have you done lately to help *anyone*. I doubt very little.
And, it ain't bragging if it's true. Besides, you brought it up, not me.

Dave The Repulsive Pirate

rw writes:

You're a bragging, double crossing ****heel, Dave, and I'm sick of it.
When you insult me for something as ridiculous as stating why I dislike
loops, I'm coming back with both barrels.

What I have stated is true. You say *I* lured Warren to the clave. It wasn't
my idea. It was someone else who asked me to sell chances on Zimmerman's rod
(the one I purchased from .... I forget his name). I was going to give it away
at Penns, but someone (Willi?) suggest I sell chances to win it and use that
money to help pay Warren's fare. I did that. And lots of folks got to meet
Warren. What have you done lately to help *anyone*. I doubt very little.
And, it ain't bragging if it's true. Besides, you brought it up, not me.

Dave The Repulsive Pirate

rw writes:

You're a bragging, double crossing ****heel, Dave, and I'm sick of it.
When you insult me for something as ridiculous as stating why I dislike
loops, I'm coming back with both barrels.

What I have stated is true. You say *I* lured Warren to the clave. It wasn't
my idea. It was someone else who asked me to sell chances on Zimmerman's rod
(the one I purchased from .... I forget his name). I was going to give it away
at Penns, but someone (Willi?) suggest I sell chances to win it and use that
money to help pay Warren's fare. I did that. And lots of folks got to meet
Warren. What have you done lately to help *anyone*. I doubt very little.
And, it ain't bragging if it's true. Besides, you brought it up, not me.

Dave The Repulsive Pirate

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:26:23 +0100, "riverman"
wrote:



Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman


Any radical change will cause some sort of hinging -- whether or not
the hinge will cause a problem is another matter. My spey line
leaders are actually quite light, starting with 20 lb., then 15 lb.
down to 10 lb. (Maxima Ultragreen). The usual formula is 60%, 20%,
20%. Some anglers are just using a single piece of very long, light
mono -- not an approach I'd use.

Keep in mind that your leader/fly has some mass, some aerodynamic
drag, and some stiffness. A short leader/small fly won't cause a
poorly assembled braided loop to hinge as it doesn't take much energy
to turn over. Try the same thing with a 15' spey leader and fly, and
watch the hinge. Still, the fly gets out there so it's more form than
function. The biggest worry with a long leader, is that the whole
affair will run out of gas when fired into the wind. A poor loop will
do that to you since it can't transfer the energy to the long leader.
But to do that, the braided loop would have to be poorly fitted,
leaving a long, limp section and the fly line inserted into only an
inch or so. If there's a 1/4" or so braid without fly line, it won't
matter, but a couple of inches would.

Your test is a good one. I worry more about energy transfer than
hinging so well assembled loops make the difference.

Peter

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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:26:23 +0100, "riverman"
wrote:



Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman


Any radical change will cause some sort of hinging -- whether or not
the hinge will cause a problem is another matter. My spey line
leaders are actually quite light, starting with 20 lb., then 15 lb.
down to 10 lb. (Maxima Ultragreen). The usual formula is 60%, 20%,
20%. Some anglers are just using a single piece of very long, light
mono -- not an approach I'd use.

Keep in mind that your leader/fly has some mass, some aerodynamic
drag, and some stiffness. A short leader/small fly won't cause a
poorly assembled braided loop to hinge as it doesn't take much energy
to turn over. Try the same thing with a 15' spey leader and fly, and
watch the hinge. Still, the fly gets out there so it's more form than
function. The biggest worry with a long leader, is that the whole
affair will run out of gas when fired into the wind. A poor loop will
do that to you since it can't transfer the energy to the long leader.
But to do that, the braided loop would have to be poorly fitted,
leaving a long, limp section and the fly line inserted into only an
inch or so. If there's a 1/4" or so braid without fly line, it won't
matter, but a couple of inches would.

Your test is a good one. I worry more about energy transfer than
hinging so well assembled loops make the difference.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 17:26:23 +0100, "riverman"
wrote:



Hmm, a corollary to rejecting the Hinge Theory then might be to reject the
philosophy of not jumping tippet weights too drastically, then. The Hinge
Theory (as I recently gathered) isn't saying that the two loops will cause a
hinge where they interact (that is BS, imho), but its saying that if you
don't seat your line deeply enough into the base of the loop, that few
centimeters of flimsy material will make a 360-degree hinge and screw up
your casts.

The philosophy of not skipping too many tippet weights is supposed to be for
the same reason. I learned that, when you tie on a tippet, to push the two
different sides together and make the tippet curl in a section including the
knot. If the weights are not too far apart, the two pieces will both curve
and you'll have a nice semicircle. If one is too thin, then it will 'hinge'
at the knot, and the result is that the tippet won't turn over correctly. Is
this also BS?

--riverman


Any radical change will cause some sort of hinging -- whether or not
the hinge will cause a problem is another matter. My spey line
leaders are actually quite light, starting with 20 lb., then 15 lb.
down to 10 lb. (Maxima Ultragreen). The usual formula is 60%, 20%,
20%. Some anglers are just using a single piece of very long, light
mono -- not an approach I'd use.

Keep in mind that your leader/fly has some mass, some aerodynamic
drag, and some stiffness. A short leader/small fly won't cause a
poorly assembled braided loop to hinge as it doesn't take much energy
to turn over. Try the same thing with a 15' spey leader and fly, and
watch the hinge. Still, the fly gets out there so it's more form than
function. The biggest worry with a long leader, is that the whole
affair will run out of gas when fired into the wind. A poor loop will
do that to you since it can't transfer the energy to the long leader.
But to do that, the braided loop would have to be poorly fitted,
leaving a long, limp section and the fly line inserted into only an
inch or so. If there's a 1/4" or so braid without fly line, it won't
matter, but a couple of inches would.

Your test is a good one. I worry more about energy transfer than
hinging so well assembled loops make the difference.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

Dave LaCourse wrote:

What have you done lately to help *anyone*. I doubt very little.

You have absolutely no idea.

And, it ain't bragging if it's true.

I rest my case.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.