OT Politics

"Dave LaCourse" wrote...
snip
As for political threads, this is my last post to one.

Good on ya, Dave. I've typed several posts for this thread but didn't send them.
I'd rather let certain people (you know who you are ) think they've won than
to perpetuate the discussion any further. I'm just weak that way, I guess. It's
just that I've never seen any good come from these discussions. They typically
degrade into name calling frenzies that I can do without.

Well, there is that "mask removal" thingy, but the jury is still out on whether
this is a good thing (or not [sic]).

Merry Ramahanukistmas to all my roffian friends (you know who you are.)
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Scott Seidman wrote:

I don't feel safe yet, but I hope I'll feel safer when the governments in
the Middle East stop whipping thier populations into terrorist frenzies
to hide the fact that they're not well off because their governments are
robbing them.

I devoutly believe that when the population in that part of the world
feels as if they're part of the government of the world, instead of the
targets of governments in the world, we'll all be safer. Bringing the
seeds of democracy to the region is one way to try to bring this about.

Installing western style democracies in the Middle East is paternalistic,
patronizing and wrongheaded. Cutting through all the self-serving crap
about benevolence and liberation, there are only two reasons to put US
military in that region. The first is oil and the second is zionism, one
smacks of imperialism and the other of racism. The first best place to
install a western style democracy is in Palestine.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Installing western style democracies in the Middle East is paternalistic,
patronizing and wrongheaded. Cutting through all the self-serving crap
about benevolence and liberation, there are only two reasons to put US
military in that region. The first is oil and the second is zionism, one
smacks of imperialism and the other of racism. The first best place to
install a western style democracy is in Palestine.
Ken Fortenberry

Democracy is not installed, Kenny. People have to choose that form of
government for their selves and actively put it in place. The Arab
countries of the Mid East are far from ready for democracy until they can
move away from the tribablism that exists today. The would-be-palestinians
are far from able to remove their corrupt leaders and select new ones who
are more concerned with building a nation than killing Jews and fattening
their own bank accounts.

Your apparent hatred of Israel blinds you to the realities of the region.
--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/i...age92kword.htm

Ken Fortenberry wrote in
y.com:

Scott Seidman wrote:

I don't feel safe yet, but I hope I'll feel safer when the
governments in the Middle East stop whipping thier populations into
terrorist frenzies to hide the fact that they're not well off because
their governments are robbing them.

I devoutly believe that when the population in that part of the world
feels as if they're part of the government of the world, instead of
the targets of governments in the world, we'll all be safer.
Bringing the seeds of democracy to the region is one way to try to
bring this about.

Installing western style democracies in the Middle East is
paternalistic, patronizing and wrongheaded. Cutting through all the
self-serving crap about benevolence and liberation, there are only two
reasons to put US military in that region. The first is oil and the
second is zionism, one smacks of imperialism and the other of racism.
The first best place to install a western style democracy is in
Palestine.


Why would Palestine be the place? What makes democracy right for them, but
wrong for the rest of the countries in the region?

If the monarchies in the region actually wanted a democratic Palestine, it
would be there already! They'd rather keep their people in line by
constantly pointing at the Palestinian plight than have the situation
resolved. That might not be as big an obstacle as Israel, but it's still
right up there.

Oil is certainly a prime motivator. Oil is the main reason for us to pay
attention to the region. Like it or not, instability in the region is
clearly a threat to the western world, not just us, because of the oil
concerns. You can make believe that such instability would only affect
rich oil magnates from Texas, but it wouldn't be true. It could change our
lives.

Scott

Scott Seidman wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
... there are only two
reasons to put US military in that region. The first is oil and the
second is zionism, one smacks of imperialism and the other of racism.
The first best place to install a western style democracy is in
Palestine.

Why would Palestine be the place? ...

It's the one place where the US could demonstrate leadership in
the region without being seen as conquering infidels and empire
builders.

Oil is certainly a prime motivator. Oil is the main reason for us to pay
attention to the region. Like it or not, instability in the region is
clearly a threat to the western world, not just us, because of the oil
concerns. ...

And like it or not, we should BUY the friggin' oil, not conquer it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Scott Seidman wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:

And like it or not, we should BUY the friggin' oil, not conquer it.


If its available for sale, yes. ...

Diplomacy is the best way to ensure that their oil remains for sale.
I believe the neocon's grand scheme for US global hegemony is insanely
dangerous in the short term and contrary to our legitimate long term
interests.

--
Ken Fortenberry

In article , Greg Pavlov
wrote:

www.nsarchive.org

You might find this interesting as well.

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/r.intro.html

Allen

In article , Greg Pavlov
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:57:33 -0500, Allen Epps
wrote:


You might find this interesting as well.

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/r.intro.html


It's amazing how old some of this stuff
has to be before it's declassified.

But it's interesting how some of the acient stuff debunks or verifys a
lot of myths and conjecture. The Veona stuff in particular is very
interesting since it deals with some of the dark years of post WWII,
the early atomic age and the Red Scare era.

Allen

"Greg Pavlov" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:57:33 -0500, Allen Epps
wrote:


You might find this interesting as well.

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/r.intro.html


It's amazing how old some of this stuff
has to be before it's declassified.

The beauty of the American system of government is it's extreme flexibility.
Over the past couple of centuries it has been modified in such a manner as
to guarantee that none of the major players go to prison, thus allowing
school children to be properly indoctrinated without the need to answer
embarrassing questions.

Wolfgang
o.k. now, boys and girls, who can name a u.s. president in living memory who
was not guilty (and let us not confuse facts with legal niceties) of a
felony......or a dozen or hundred?

Wolfgang
o.k. now, boys and girls, who can name a u.s. president in living memory
who
was not guilty (and let us not confuse facts with legal niceties) of a
felony......or a dozen or hundred?

Harry S. Truman and James Carter should both fit into that category.


--
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/i...age92kword.htm