TR

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:41:14 -0500, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:03:39 -0500, daytripper
wrote:

/daytripper

Your slip is showing; Connor gets a "Cheers" and I get what?
I think your intent is perfectly clear, Dave. You have not censured
or disapproved of anything Connor has said, give him a "cheers" and
blame everything on me. If roff is like it is today because of me,
then I think I have done a marvelous job. If it is such a hell hole,
why does Connor keep coming back, and why do you even open, never mind
read, my posts?

By not censuring Connor, and remaining "neutral", you encourage his
rage. Have you counted his posts in the past 1000 and found how many
have been negative? Have you counted the number of times he has
called others names with language you wouldn't use in your own home?
I know, I know, if I didn't read and answer his posts he wouldn't do
it, so therefore it is my fault. I make him what he is by recognizing
him.

Do you really not understand, Dave?

Mike has never rained the litany of foul, hate-filled lying invectives you
have laid on me for years.

That, in all its simplicity, is the difference...

Hope your wife and family enjoy the start of the Holidays...

/daytripper ()

On Nov 22, 9:53 am, Mike wrote:
On 22 Nov, 18:47, BJ Conner wrote:





On Nov 22, 6:10 am, wrote:

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:58:11 -0800 (PST), Mike

wrote:
On 22 Nov, 03:24, daytripper wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:59:16 -0800 (PST), Mike
wrote:
[...]

I don´t know what Mr.Tatosian is going to do, but I definitely will
not reply to you again, it makes me feel dirty.

MC

It would go a long way to restoring some semblance of civilization here if you
would simply hold to that commitment, Mike...

Cheers

/daytripper

Well, it´s an interesting theory, but I don´t think you will ever
restore "civilisation" here, as per definition, it requires people to
be civil, and several here gave up any semblance of that long ago, and
some were never privy to its niceties at all. The Ricks and Oakies.
Would you fish with such? I wouldn´t.

Regardless of what one posts, one must expect a sniper or some other
well-wisher to start the insults and rubbish. It´s like trying to
navigate a minefield blindfolded while giving a lecture to
recalcitrant schoolboys. One must weigh every single word with the
utmost care, and it still does no good.

Once upon a time this place worked reasonably well, because the checks
and balances, such as they were, still operated on the basis of mutual
respect and a certain peer pressure was evident. That has not been the
case for a long time. It actually started in earnest with Gehrke.
There is no way now even to shame some people into behaving in a civil
manner. They obviously view this place as some sort of personal
playground, where they may simply do as they like, without let or
hindrance. Unfortunately, that is also true. Without self control,
there is no control.

To be truthful, the only reason I am still here, is because I do not
wish to give anybody the satisfaction of saying I left in a snit or
some equally ridiculous crap. I will never bow down to liars, cowards,
and assholes. Also, just to make it clear, I am not refraining from
replying to LaCourse, Fortenberry, or that total ****bag Dean, because
it is the civil thing to do, I am doing it because anything else is
totally pointless. One might as well try to converse with a retarded
five year old in a tantrum, or a common house brick.

There is virtually no joy here any more, and it is also quite boring.
That is why it will just slide away quietly, and nobody will miss it
much. Those of you who are friends outside this group will doubtless
remain so, and that is fine. But this group is doomed as a going
concern. It was doomed the first time somebody abused another member
in an unforgivable manner, and nobody said anything. This has happened
countless times in the meantime, and nothing much was done. You lost
the best "bouncer" you had when Cyli passed. Her presence, and
occasionally her words, still held sway over even the worst offenders..
There is now nothing at all, no matter how low, evil, and nasty, some
would not say in the hope of damaging somebody they hate and perceive
to be an enemy. They HATE somebody, who at least originally, came here
because of a common interest, maybe even the love of fly-fishing. What
a disgusting perversion.

It all ceased to be about fishing a long time ago as well.

You don´t really want to associate with ****bags like Dean do you? He
is a nasty ******* because he enjoys being a nasty *******, and he
will never change.Neither will Fortenberry, he will continue to attack
and denigrate people who disagree with him, convinced beyond any
possible doubt that he is right, and therefore has the right to use
any means to further or impose his views on others. LaCourse is just
an unfortunate casualty, like an old bull full of banderillas, shaking
his head and feinting with what is left of his strength and hoping to
hit something with his horns although half blind with frustration and
rage. He doesn´t know what´s going on half the time. He has already
begun writing his attack before he has read and understood the first
line of the post, while invariably misinterpreting the motives or
intentions of the poster.

All a bit bloody pathetic really.

My third attempt at writing this, and it seems no better than the
first two. I don´t suppose it matters much anyway, and I do have the
time at least. I am even getting bored with the bloody website
now..................

Bugger it.

Did you ever wonder why you seem to be the (new) target of the most
incoming fire, as it were? Speaking only for myself, it's 90-something
percent over-the-top shtick, but I'll grant that some of what comes from
some quarters _seems_ to be loaded with real malice. But since I can't
speak for those authors as to their actual feelings, I won't. OTOH,
_you_ seem to produce more hate-filled, truly venomous spew than just
about anyone here OR you come off as a pompous clown whose every opinion
ought to be worshipped by all as a nugget of pure, shining wisdom. IOW,
you're begging for a nonstop gigging in a fishcamp/hunting camp/barroom
place like ROFF.

Maybe you haven't been lucky enough to be a part of any real-life groups
of guys (and the occasional gal) that gather to fish and hunt and
generally be "guys," at least for a time. You know - fish or hunt,
drink, have a side of sirloin with their ribeye after a fish or
backstrap appetizer, drink, smoke cigars, drink and cuss and fart
without so much as the hint of a feminine look that says "you BETTER
excuse yourself now, mister..." If so, that's a shame, but I can tell
you from 25 years of thankfully near-constant experience with such, at
least as far as the general bull****ting goes, it's about par for the
(normal) course. If we (the real-life groups, IAC) didn't want at least
a temporary respite from being serious adults with jobs, businesses,
clients, wives, girlfriends, children, leaking plumbing, lawns to mow,
and other assorted responsibilities, we wouldn't be at the ****ing
camp/on the boat/etc. And everyone in these various overlapping groups,
sooner or later, is going to do something that strikes folks as worthy
of a little bit of gigging, and in a friendly way, that person is gonna
get gigged. If they act like an asshole about it, it's only going to
draw more. Speaking only for myself, I don't _hate_ anyone around here -
heck, I'd happily share a stream, a cockpit, a hunting camp fire or a
drink with many, even most, of the goofballs and reprobates that share
this virtual campfire.

And something in your post that particularly stood out to me is your
description of Dave as an "old bull..." While I'd agree that such a
description does seem to fit him at time, frankly, I think that
description also fits you. You seem hellbent on "impressing" all here
with your knowledge and what a superior specimen you are. I would offer
that if you simply added you opinion to the often-large pile and were
done with it unless (seriously) asked for more information - like most
here do - you'd have a much easier time of it. As to impressing anyone
here, I doubt _anyone_ here stands much of a chance on becoming crowned
the King of ROFF, simply because there are too many folks here that, at
least as far as their own fishing happiness goes, know their ****. And
a good many could teach you (and/or others) a trick or three. Plus, the
regulars aren't here for fishing lessons, they are here for the
bull****ting around the campfire, and interrupting the punchline of a
good dirty joke to instruct folks on proper etiquette ain't gonna win
friends and influence people.

As 'tripper said, albeit at the wrong time, grow up. Don't take things
so seriously. Sure, when appropriate, put down your cocktail and be
serious, but not so much that you can't have some real fun.

HTH,
R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said, but your feeding ice cream to a pig.

Would you like another scoop? Chocolate or Vanilla?

MC- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Today I am having Vanilla on Pumpkin Pie.

Today I am having Vanilla on Pumpkin Pie.

Well I hope you enjoy it. Seeing as how this is the season of good
will and all that, ( it starts earlier every year), I have a bold
suggestion for you; I really don´t know why all this **** started,
and it is is unimportant anyway, but what do you say we simply stop
all the ****, and just talk about fishing or something?

I honestly don´t know how I may have originally offended you, although
it seems I did, and I certainly have done my best to **** you off
recently, even though I don´t know why. Whatever the case may be it is
totally pointless.

We could at least agree not to **** in each other´s wheaties?

TL
MC

On 22 Nov, 15:10, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:58:11 -0800 (PST), Mike



wrote:
On 22 Nov, 03:24, daytripper wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:59:16 -0800 (PST), Mike
wrote:
[...]

I don´t know what Mr.Tatosian is going to do, but I definitely will
not reply to you again, it makes me feel dirty.

MC

It would go a long way to restoring some semblance of civilization here if you
would simply hold to that commitment, Mike...

Cheers

/daytripper

Well, it´s an interesting theory, but I don´t think you will ever
restore "civilisation" here, as per definition, it requires people to
be civil, and several here gave up any semblance of that long ago, and
some were never privy to its niceties at all. The Ricks and Oakies.
Would you fish with such? I wouldn´t.

Regardless of what one posts, one must expect a sniper or some other
well-wisher to start the insults and rubbish. It´s like trying to
navigate a minefield blindfolded while giving a lecture to
recalcitrant schoolboys. One must weigh every single word with the
utmost care, and it still does no good.

Once upon a time this place worked reasonably well, because the checks
and balances, such as they were, still operated on the basis of mutual
respect and a certain peer pressure was evident. That has not been the
case for a long time. It actually started in earnest with Gehrke.
There is no way now even to shame some people into behaving in a civil
manner. They obviously view this place as some sort of personal
playground, where they may simply do as they like, without let or
hindrance. Unfortunately, that is also true. Without self control,
there is no control.

To be truthful, the only reason I am still here, is because I do not
wish to give anybody the satisfaction of saying I left in a snit or
some equally ridiculous crap. I will never bow down to liars, cowards,
and assholes. Also, just to make it clear, I am not refraining from
replying to LaCourse, Fortenberry, or that total ****bag Dean, because
it is the civil thing to do, I am doing it because anything else is
totally pointless. One might as well try to converse with a retarded
five year old in a tantrum, or a common house brick.

There is virtually no joy here any more, and it is also quite boring.
That is why it will just slide away quietly, and nobody will miss it
much. Those of you who are friends outside this group will doubtless
remain so, and that is fine. But this group is doomed as a going
concern. It was doomed the first time somebody abused another member
in an unforgivable manner, and nobody said anything. This has happened
countless times in the meantime, and nothing much was done. You lost
the best "bouncer" you had when Cyli passed. Her presence, and
occasionally her words, still held sway over even the worst offenders.
There is now nothing at all, no matter how low, evil, and nasty, some
would not say in the hope of damaging somebody they hate and perceive
to be an enemy. They HATE somebody, who at least originally, came here
because of a common interest, maybe even the love of fly-fishing. What
a disgusting perversion.

It all ceased to be about fishing a long time ago as well.

You don´t really want to associate with ****bags like Dean do you? He
is a nasty ******* because he enjoys being a nasty *******, and he
will never change.Neither will Fortenberry, he will continue to attack
and denigrate people who disagree with him, convinced beyond any
possible doubt that he is right, and therefore has the right to use
any means to further or impose his views on others. LaCourse is just
an unfortunate casualty, like an old bull full of banderillas, shaking
his head and feinting with what is left of his strength and hoping to
hit something with his horns although half blind with frustration and
rage. He doesn´t know what´s going on half the time. He has already
begun writing his attack before he has read and understood the first
line of the post, while invariably misinterpreting the motives or
intentions of the poster.

All a bit bloody pathetic really.

My third attempt at writing this, and it seems no better than the
first two. I don´t suppose it matters much anyway, and I do have the
time at least. I am even getting bored with the bloody website
now..................

Bugger it.

Did you ever wonder why you seem to be the (new) target of the most
incoming fire, as it were? Speaking only for myself, it's 90-something
percent over-the-top shtick, but I'll grant that some of what comes from
some quarters _seems_ to be loaded with real malice. But since I can't
speak for those authors as to their actual feelings, I won't. OTOH,
_you_ seem to produce more hate-filled, truly venomous spew than just
about anyone here OR you come off as a pompous clown whose every opinion
ought to be worshipped by all as a nugget of pure, shining wisdom. IOW,
you're begging for a nonstop gigging in a fishcamp/hunting camp/barroom
place like ROFF.

Maybe you haven't been lucky enough to be a part of any real-life groups
of guys (and the occasional gal) that gather to fish and hunt and
generally be "guys," at least for a time. You know - fish or hunt,
drink, have a side of sirloin with their ribeye after a fish or
backstrap appetizer, drink, smoke cigars, drink and cuss and fart
without so much as the hint of a feminine look that says "you BETTER
excuse yourself now, mister..." If so, that's a shame, but I can tell
you from 25 years of thankfully near-constant experience with such, at
least as far as the general bull****ting goes, it's about par for the
(normal) course. If we (the real-life groups, IAC) didn't want at least
a temporary respite from being serious adults with jobs, businesses,
clients, wives, girlfriends, children, leaking plumbing, lawns to mow,
and other assorted responsibilities, we wouldn't be at the ****ing
camp/on the boat/etc. And everyone in these various overlapping groups,
sooner or later, is going to do something that strikes folks as worthy
of a little bit of gigging, and in a friendly way, that person is gonna
get gigged. If they act like an asshole about it, it's only going to
draw more. Speaking only for myself, I don't _hate_ anyone around here -
heck, I'd happily share a stream, a cockpit, a hunting camp fire or a
drink with many, even most, of the goofballs and reprobates that share
this virtual campfire.

And something in your post that particularly stood out to me is your
description of Dave as an "old bull..." While I'd agree that such a
description does seem to fit him at time, frankly, I think that
description also fits you. You seem hellbent on "impressing" all here
with your knowledge and what a superior specimen you are. I would offer
that if you simply added you opinion to the often-large pile and were
done with it unless (seriously) asked for more information - like most
here do - you'd have a much easier time of it. As to impressing anyone
here, I doubt _anyone_ here stands much of a chance on becoming crowned
the King of ROFF, simply because there are too many folks here that, at
least as far as their own fishing happiness goes, know their ****. And
a good many could teach you (and/or others) a trick or three. Plus, the
regulars aren't here for fishing lessons, they are here for the
bull****ting around the campfire, and interrupting the punchline of a
good dirty joke to instruct folks on proper etiquette ain't gonna win
friends and influence people.

As 'tripper said, albeit at the wrong time, grow up. Don't take things
so seriously. Sure, when appropriate, put down your cocktail and be
serious, but not so much that you can't have some real fun.

HTH,
R

Against my better judgement, because I don´t trust you for a second,
and also ignoring once again the fact that I said I would not reply to
you, Mr.Bowen is quite correct. You have constantly posted **** on
here, but this is indeed cogent and sensible. I don´t agree with it, I
simply do not share your views in this regard, but I "hear what you
are saying". I fear we will also never agree on such matters.
Basically I simply don´t understand you.

You assume certain things as a matter of course, I see them
differently. These things should not be the grounds for discord. We
are different, and we always will be, but that should not stop us
learning from each other.

Quite apart from any other considerations, we have a duty to those
who come after us, indeed to those who are now looking at what we do
and how we behave.

You, and apparently some others, think I am a pompous knowitall, and
I think you are an unprincipled ****bag. Perhaps we are simply both
wrong?

So how do we find out?

MC

Mr. LaCourse, Mr.Fortenberry,

I can not change what is, or what has been, but I can at least attempt
to change your perceptions of it, indeed, I constantly try to change
my own, as otherwise I would learn nothing.

You may not agree with my views on many things, as I may not agree
with yours, but that should not be grounds for contention, it should
be considered an opportunity to learn.

You may appreciate that it is extremely difficult for me to do what I
am about to do, and I am extremely apprehensive that it might even be
a serious and extremely stupid mistake, but somebody has to start
somewhere, or we might as well go back to killing each other with
primitive tools.

Mr. LaCourse, Mr Fortenberry, for the pain and upset I have caused
you, I most humbly apologise, and beg your forgiveness.

I rather think it is time I went to bed.

Gentlemen I beg your indulgence,

Regards and tight lines.............

Mike Connor

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:10:05 -0500, daytripper
wrote:

Do you really not understand, Dave?

Mike has never rained the litany of foul, hate-filled lying invectives you
have laid on me for years.

But yet he is as guilty as any for the hate-filled lies published on
these pages. You and I have had our differences and it all stems from
those two claves. I do not appreciate paying for the room both times,
nor for all of the gas except one fill-up. There were *no* lies,
Dave, concerning those claves, and you know it. I talked to Tom Brown
and he confirms the amount of beer we bought for *everyone*, not just
you.

That, in all its simplicity, is the difference...

Right. I get the blame for all the hate on roff and your buddies Ken,
Wolfgang, and Mikey go scott free. Like I said, your slip is showing.

Hope your wife and family enjoy the start of the Holidays...

Had the kids and all the grandkids plus a fishing buddy and his wife
for dinner. Thank you for your good will sentiment. Hope you and
yours are well.

Dave

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:20:45 -0800 (PST), Mike
wrote:

So how do we find out?

We already have. I agree with Richard about you, but Richard is not a
****bag.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:55:39 -0800 (PST), Mike
wrote:

I most humbly apologise, and beg your forgiveness.

You owe me no apology, and I forgive you before you act (believe it or
not).

You must learn, Mike, that just about all the old timers here are
excellent fly fishermen. I've been fly fishing since 1946 or
thereabouts. I have fished with just about all of these gentlemen,
and there isn't a bad one in the bunch. You must remember that things
are different in the states than in Europe. We call it trolling, not
trailing and for you to correct us smacks of arrogance. There are
other differences that you think we are too stupid to understand.
When someone disagrees with you, that is not an attack. It is just a
difference of opinion.

You have never fished a western stream. Or one in Alaska, Russia,
Canada, Maine, etc. Many of us have, and for you to tell us that such
and such a fly won't work or is a bad choice is just plain wrong. You
have no idea about fishing in this wonderful country. We *do* it,
Mike, we don't just read about it.

For you to humble yourself with an apology is not the Mike Connor I
and others know. I congradulate you on it.

Dave

Mike wrote:
Mr. LaCourse, Mr.Fortenberry,

I can not change what is, or what has been, but I can at least attempt
to change your perceptions of it, indeed, I constantly try to change
my own, as otherwise I would learn nothing.

You may not agree with my views on many things, as I may not agree
with yours, but that should not be grounds for contention, it should
be considered an opportunity to learn.

You may appreciate that it is extremely difficult for me to do what I
am about to do, and I am extremely apprehensive that it might even be
a serious and extremely stupid mistake, but somebody has to start
somewhere, or we might as well go back to killing each other with
primitive tools.

Mr. LaCourse, Mr Fortenberry, for the pain and upset I have caused
you, I most humbly apologise, and beg your forgiveness.

I rather think it is time I went to bed.

Gentlemen I beg your indulgence,

Regards and tight lines.............

Mike Connor

That's very gracious, Mike. I hope that everyone, in their heart of
hearts, will accept it and that we can move on.

No doubt, there will occur to you, in the near future, temptations and
provocations to, shall we say, go ape ****. Resist them. There is no joy
there.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Mike wrote:
... Mr.Fortenberry,

I can not change what is, or what has been, but I can at least attempt
to change your perceptions of it, indeed, I constantly try to change
my own, as otherwise I would learn nothing. ...

You're not gonna change my perception of your vicious, foul-mouthed
personal attacks. It's like I said in another thread, you ride the
prevailing winds of roff and at this holiday moment the winds are
blowing towards sweetness and light. I'm guessing it won't be long
before sweetness and light is forgotten and you revert to form.

--
Ken Fortenberry