Fly Tie-ers

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:51:49 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


rw wrote:


I wonder how much of our economy is "under the table" -- cash payments
off the books. I know a lot of people who work that way, and they aren't
all illegal aliens, though a couple are. I think it's a hell of a lot of
the economy, and I'm not even counting drug transactions.


in my opinion based solely on years of anecdotal and personal
experience, there is a significant under-the-table economy among


the middle class self-employed work force.


Um, is that yet another PC term for illegal aliens?

Lawdy, lawdy, how come a self-aggrandizing little **** like Cesar Chavez
could not only say "wetback," but use it to refer to illegals and even
have a large group assembled to "Stop the Wetbacks!" way back when and
still get hugged by every silly-assed white hippie-dippie pseudoliberal
around, and if _anyone_ says it now, those same folks have a coronary?

TC,
R

jeff

nah...mainly hairdressers, construction contractors, and home-repair
workers... not an illegal alien in the crowd i've had any experience
with. i've no problem with the huge mexican labor force in my
community...though many others do. frankly, all of the mexican laborers
i have met are hard workers and pleasant people. they suffer any
exploitation with gratitude. it's the ukranian and belorussian women
(of the "mail order" vampire bride kind) that cause me to worry about
aliens... well, them and those ever frequent ufo sightings here in the
south...

jeff

jeff

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, jeff miller wrote:


experience, there is a significant under-the-table economy among the
middle class self-employed work force.


Define "middle class" as you think it exists in this country (USA), today.

nb

look it up...

rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.



In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.


I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that Americans
won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals has
depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.




In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.



I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that
Americans won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals
has depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.




In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.



I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that
Americans won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals
has depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.

An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices. IOW, if wages were actually low, it
would take incentives beyond the mere chance at a job to entice the
supply (the illegal aliens) to attempt to fill the demand (the jobs at
current wages). Couple that with the fact that "legal" workers cost an
employer considerably more than the cost of their wages, it isn't
surprising that employers are more than willing to employ illegal
workers for the simple wage cost, esp. when the illegal worker, just to
frost the cake, a better, more willing worker. Illegal aliens haven't
taken jobs from willing US citizens, lazy US workers who want rights
without responsibilities have ****ed away jobs to those who, well,
aren't and don't.

HTH,
R

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.


An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices.

Wages are exactly where they "should" be given the supply of labor.
That's the way a market works. If the supply of labor decreased by the
estimated 12 million illegal immigrants and demand stayed constant, then
wages would increase, as inevitably as night follows day.

Funny, but I always imagined you to be a free-market type of person.
Guess I was wrong.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:11:32 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
jeff miller wrote:
the middle class self-employed work force.

Um, is that yet another PC term for illegal aliens?

Lawdy, lawdy, how come a self-aggrandizing little **** like Cesar Chavez
could not only say "wetback," but use it to refer to illegals and even
have a large group assembled to "Stop the Wetbacks!" way back when and
still get hugged by every silly-assed white hippie-dippie pseudoliberal
around, and if _anyone_ says it now, those same folks have a coronary?

There are lots of things our grandpas could say in polite
company which would be totally unacceptable today. And I
don't think there's a damn thing wrong with that.

So, it is the term "ILLEGAL ALIEN" that is bothering you??
--
Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented Worker" is like calling a
Crack Dealer an "Unlicensed Pharmacist"

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:33:14 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
I'm not buying your
non-exploitive, benevolent employer of illegals bull****.
yada yada yada snipped
Ah, well, what goes around comes around, I
summose...used to be, the lives of yer chinks and micks were worth a
whole lot less than that of yer negroes...
What in the hell does any of that nonsense have to do with
chiselers hiring illegals off-the-books so they don't have
to pay Social Security, Workmen's Comp or any other payroll
tax like a legit employer ?

Ken, based on the above, I'd offer that you really don't what you are
talking about.
snip
The long and short of it is anyone who makes a blanket statement about
those who hire illegals simply demonstrates not only their lack of
knowledge about it, but their closed-minded determination to stay
uninformed.

Was that supposed to be a microeconomics lecture or the closing
argument in a chiseler's trial ? And I'm still not buying your
bull****.

If I were you Ken, I wouldn't by ANYONE's Bull**** - You already have
plenty enough to go 'round.
--
Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented Worker" is like calling a
Crack Dealer an "Unlicensed Pharmacist"

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:38:07 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 07:11:18 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Yes, slur. Comparing undocumented workers to crack dealers is
a bigoted slur and it's offensive.
Ken, I have never compared illegal aliens to crack dealers....
Just like the other anonymous bigot, you don't even have the
courage of your own repugnant convictions.
Courage? COURAGE??? BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah, no courage. You post an offensive slogan with your every
post and instead of defending it all you can do is dissemble
and deny. You'd have us believe your offensive slogan has nothing
to do with illegal immigration but rather it's a jab at PC
language ? Either you're incredibly stupid and merely parroting
some radio talk show host or you don't even have the courage of
your own repugnant convictions. Either way your every post is
offensive.

Ken, what is offensive about a similie? It has NOTHING to do with
immigration, just the PC bull****.

Your slogan is offensive because it compares undocumented workers
to crack dealers. It makes little difference whether you're smart
enough to understand your own offensive slogan.

Never quite made it out of English-101, did you Ken?
--
Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented Worker" is like calling a
Crack Dealer an "Unlicensed Pharmacist"
--
Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented Worker" is like calling a
Crack Dealer an "Unlicensed Pharmacist"

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:41:12 -0600, rw
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.


An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices.

Wages are exactly where they "should" be given the supply of labor.
That's the way a market works. If the supply of labor decreased by the
estimated 12 million illegal immigrants and demand stayed constant, then
wages would increase, as inevitably as night follows day.

Funny, but I always imagined you to be a free-market type of person.
Guess I was wrong.

Actually, as I've said before, I'm one of the few, perhaps even the
only, actual liberals around ROFF. As such, I am largely a
"free-market" type of person in the general sense of the term, but since
the term is subject to, er, subjective interpretation, and I don't know
how you might interpret it, I have no idea if I am a "free-market type
of person" in your interpretation.

IAC, in a "free market" neither supply or demand is ever "where they
should be" in terms of an fixed amount - they are constantly in flux,
attempting to balance each other. Wages would be the same. There is no
"where things SHOULD be" in a "free" market.

Moreover, sure, if a large percentage of the supply were suddenly
removed from the market by external forces, particularly government
control, and demand stayed constant (which would be impossible as labor
costs would suppress demand), prices would rise until the supply
(illegals) increased. So, here's the scenario in your little passion
play: the government manages to instantly remove all 12 million
illegals and with little supply to satisfy the demand, _some_ buyers
(employers) are willing to pay sellers (employees) all sorts of green to
work, which some sellers actually do. However, most buyers say, "Screw
it. I can't pay $50USD an hour, plus bennies, to a bunch of lazy sots
whose production is much less than the guys I had because my buyers
won't pay the increase in costs for my supply." So the "supply" of
production (let's say houses and lettuce, to stay with the
construction/ag industries) drops while the price rises dramatically and
temporarily. Nobody is building or growing because the price is so high
there is little demand. But folks want houses and lettuce, and some
enterprising person manages to (guess which) a) find some locals who are
willing to work for "MUCH" less (like 10-20USD cash, no bennies), or, b)
some new illegals show up and work for "MUCH" less and suddenly demand
starts to pick back up as supply (at a price acceptable to the market)
begins to increase.

Now, based upon your guess above, do you further guess that:
a) the US suddenly has a "native" workforce willing to work for market
prices, or,
b) the US rapidly finds itself with 15 million illegals (because there
will always be more supply than demand in an expanding market) who are
perfectly willing to work for market wages...because "a)," above is a
friggin' fantasyland pipedream...

HTH,
R

And BTW, a similar governmental meddling in the overall petroleum
industry/market in the 90s led, at least in part, to the situation with
oil, gasoline, and fuel prices today...