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Jeff Miller wrote:
i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters
degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a

starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before
he/she
can expect to earn over 40k.


Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest
of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to
obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject
needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect
lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know*
their subjects in all cases)

Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many
folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some
kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble.

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.

Wayne
I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and
state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday.

In article .com,
"Wayne Knight" wrote:

Jeff Miller wrote:
i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters
degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a

starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before
he/she
can expect to earn over 40k.


Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest
of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to
obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject
needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect
lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know*
their subjects in all cases)

Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many
folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some
kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble.

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.

Wayne
I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and
state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday.

You should have.

Let's look at some other things about teaching...

Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing education
courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most other
professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're only
available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the year" job.

You spend several hours a night grading papers, recording grades, writing lesson
plans, creating classroom materials, reading background material, correcting
textbooks, reading professional journals, contacting parents, other teachers,
administrators... So much for that "8 to 3" job...

You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials for 30 kids,
extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that make a
classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own pocket, to
the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to prove
it...) So much for that "not a bad start"...

Any attempt to maintain classroom discipline is met with angry calls from
parents denying that their little darlings would EVER do anything disruptive
(despite the fact the the little "darling" has spent more time suspended than in
the classroom), and the fact that due to a few bad apples, a teacher can't even
hug a crying student on the playground anymore. Of course, the parents are
completely ignorant of the fact that if you let the TV raise the kids for the
first 6 years, there's almost nothing that a school can do to rescue them.

Not to mention the fact that anytime a school levy comes up, you have to act
like a beggar, pleading for the community to pass it so you will have a job the
next year.

Then you've got the school board that keeps the number of teachers as low as
possible, so that you're constantly at a load that is ONE student short of the
number that would require them to assign you an aide... and you're working with
special ed students that all have different needs, and writing 12 highly
detailed individual lesson plans a week (over the course of a year, over 1000
pages worth!).

On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest stress
field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain gets to be
too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance available.

I was a substitute teacher for 2 years, and taught music for 7 years. I was a
profesional musician for over 30 years, and have 2 recordings to my credit. I
bacame a Mr. Mom after my son was born because it was clear there was no future
in teaching, and have made more money in retail hell than I ever did in
education. My wife taught "special needs" students (ages to 13, highest
functioning at about 2-3 grade)for 25 years. You clearly have NO idea what
teaching is really like. You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary
classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat you alive in
an hour.

Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or may not
have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were extended for
the education YOU received, and still use.

So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby.

--
"What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it
stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is
static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships
ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought
to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet,
and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner
James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_

Joe Ellis wrote:


You should have.

Let's look at some other things about teaching...

Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing
education
courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most
other
professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're
only
available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the
year" job.

Not what my sister endures. She manages to get hers in during the
school year.


You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials
for 30 kids,
extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that
make a
classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own
pocket, to
the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to
prove
it...) So much for that "not a bad start"...

Seen the extra checks I used to write for supplies big guy? Seen the
tax treatment for teachers? Probably not.

On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest
stress
field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain
gets to be
too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance
available.

Defined benefit pensions too. The private sector has been losing them
for years.

You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary
classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat
you alive in
an hour.

I subbed too. Math and Chemistry. Got quite a bit of work in too at the
time as I was employed in a clinical laboratory. Even considered doing
it for a living but my undergrad Chemistry degree and post graduate
work was not good enough for them, they wanted an education degree. At
that point the salary was comparable to my private sector income and
the benefits were definitely better.

My employer at one point *loaned* me to a school system. I taught
calculus and general chemistry for two hours each day for one year. I
enjoyed it. Even enjoyed doing lesson plans and grading tests. I take
work home now in the evening, I'm sure others do too. So what?

Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or
may not
have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were
extended for
the education YOU received, and still use.

My taxes are a civic duty to support vital government functions. As far
as I know, most citizens generally don't mind paying our fair share for
a community benefit. I do object to the education system not having to
live like the rest of us and tighten our belts peridocially. My fellow
citizens and I just got a levy increase for administrative and athletic
facilities. I'm all for high school sports, but seven million for a
football stadium is a little out of hand.

So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby.

I would not go around calling those you feed you baby. Read the post
again, I said the education requirements were not tough. And I said it
was not the noble profession folks made it out to be. I never said it
was an easy job.

I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
ups.com...

SNIP
I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne


So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet
anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous
in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing
homes and hospitals.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor. Most
of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect in
this sad-assed country.

Dave

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
oups.com...

//snip//
Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest
of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to
obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject
needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect
lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know*
their subjects in all cases)


Wayne, I used to think pretty much the same thing as you. Not any more. My
wife teaches four levels of Japanese at one of the local high schools here
in St Louis County. She spends more time working outside of class than
inside, and subject matter knowledge is the least of the issues. There's a
good summer break, but she works evenings and weekends grading papers,
preparing lesson plans, talking to parents, preparing special lesson plans
for students who are suspended (one of the more asinine punishments),
preparing other special plans for students with disabilities, working with
other students who need extra help, assisting others who want to do
independent study, and on and on. And what's the reward for long hours and
extra dedication? Nothing but the psychic reward of occasionally making a
difference in somebody's life.

In my world, and probably in yours, people get ahead by working harder:
bigger bonuses, promotions, more perqs, etc. But not teachers. A talented
teacher who works harder gets tougher students.

Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many
folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some
kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble.

Is ANY profession noble? My wife doesn't make much money. But when her
former students who are now FBI agents, lawyers, and teachers come back
years later to see her and tell her what a difference she made, it's a
pretty valuable reward. And when one of her best students - an honor roll
student and athlete - elected to join the Marines to get money for college
and law school, and then went to Afghanistan on October 2001, I think her
concern about him was second only to that of his parents.

I suspect that few people other than teachers and police officers get such a
picture of the social issues that this country faces. There are people in
this community who don't eat every day because they can't afford it. There
are kids in my wife's classes whose mothers work full time for the minimum
wage and can't make ends meet for their families. There are kids who go to
bed at night having had nothing to eat all day except the free lunch at
school, and are about the be evicted from their homes. That is absolutely
true. And we penalize the kids for that!

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.

Yeah. Get a bunch of technicians who're good test takers but haven't the
foggiest notion about the real world. Doesn't do any good to raise the bar
if not enough people want to get in.

Imagine a kid from the inner city of St Louis who is bused to an affluent
school in St Louis county. His mother can hardly afford to buy him a pencil
and paper, but now he is immersed in a school with kids who drive BMWs. How
does he feel? What kind of character does it take to deal with that, and how
do teachers deal with the issues? Probably not by learning something from a
textbook and passing a test about it.

Wayne
I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and
state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday.

I know. I paid mine today too. I figure a good bit of it went to pay for
propaganda development to convince people that the Administration wants to
improve the country.

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
ups.com...

SNIP
I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne


So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if
you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet
anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous
in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing
homes and hospitals.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor.
Most
of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most
take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations
and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect
in
this sad-assed country.

Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse**** from
our resident psychopath in the great northwest.

Wolfgang
who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired
from the public tit does not an authority make.

On 15 Apr 2005 06:17:02 -0700, "Wayne Knight"
wrote:

(snipped)

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.


Good idea. When my daughter and I were doing a year of home schooling
for my grandson, I thought it might be easier all around if I got a
teaching certificate. So I took the test for practice. With no study
and half an hour left at the end of the test, I'd easily made a better
than passing grade. It could have been still better, but I was off on
some of the 'If little Susie slams little Tommy over the head with the
toy locomotive in kindergarten, what do you do about it?' questions.

So the degree has to count, as the state test here isn't worth doggie
doo. This did not fill me with confidence that the next year the
grandson would be sent out among educated folks with much knowledge to
impart to him. Luckily he's in a good school now, as are the
granddaughters, but if you take the local pot luck of schools and
teachers, you _will_ wind up with some people teaching who have not
proven to have knowledge of their subjects and are teaching only out
of a lesson book.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if
you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

I said I considered it, they wanted an education degree in that particular
school system. At the time I was doing post grad work in chemistry, and yes
I made a choice not to seek the edu degree.

Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system,

I have forgotten more about the health care system than you ever learned.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives.

Oh bull****, if you're bleeding out from a chest wound, I'm sure you would
consider the trauma surgeon to be the most noble profession at the time, or
if your house was on fire....you get the idea. There are good teachers that
*inspire* kids but I'm sure your children were exposed to bad and medicore
teachers too, most of which they can't remember. No different than everyday
life and other people you come in contact with on a daily basis.

of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most
take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations
and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect
in
this sad-assed country.

Oh come on, the country has issues, always has had issues We'll find a way
to survive Georgie and the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in
the west. As to your friends pensions, get a grip son, they were government
employees, and who do the governement employees actually work for? , hint,
it ain't the taxpayer.

Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Jeff Miller" wrote

i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters

degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a
starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before he/she
can expect to earn over 40k.

it's shameful and ridiculous.



what, you mean to tell me that ron artest isn't worth, like, 40k a
****ing week?

yfitp
wayno (i mean, just think of the role model aspect!)



not to mention mcCant$...

jeff

"Bob Patton" wrote in message
...

In my world, and probably in yours, people get ahead by working harder:
bigger bonuses, promotions, more perqs, etc. But not teachers. A talented
teacher who works harder gets tougher students.

Haven't teachers sort of done that to themselves tho?

Is ANY profession noble?

IMO not really.

My wife doesn't make much money.

I understand fully what you are trying to say Bob and I;m sure your wife is
most excellent at what she does. Is it tough to make a living on what some
professions, including teaching pay. It sure the hell is and I would not
want to be doing that right now but that's not the relevant point.

I suspect that few people other than teachers and police officers get such
a picture of the social issues that this country faces. There are people
in this community who don't eat every day because they can't afford it.
There are kids in my wife's classes whose mothers work full time for the
minimum wage and can't make ends meet for their families. There are kids
who go to bed at night having had nothing to eat all day except the free
lunch at school, and are about the be evicted from their homes. That is
absolutely true. And we penalize the kids for that!

Do you think teachers and police officers really have the picture? I would
submit that they don't. I was one of *those people* . My mother still has
not recovered. We don;t penalize the kids, some ****ing know it all amateur
psychiatrist nobilese teacher brands the kid a special needs or targets him
as a trouble maker. I'm glad your wife can influence so many lifes and taht
Snedeker's girls had nothing but great kids, my teachers sucked
(figureatively speaking of course) and were more concerned with their
contract negotiations that if I could find the solution to a quadratic
equation, primarily because most of them had no idea what one was. And do
not get me started on how we were treated by the local police.

Yeah. Get a bunch of technicians who're good test takers but haven't the
foggiest notion about the real world. Doesn't do any good to raise the bar
if not enough people want to get in.

If a math professor in college does not know math, then it will come out and
they will be cut. Do the same in elememtary school, then maybe johnny could
read.

Imagine a kid from the inner city of St Louis who is bused to an affluent
school in St Louis county.

Again I don;t have to imagine what that is like.

I know. I paid mine today too. I figure a good bit of it went to pay for
propaganda development to convince people that the Administration wants to
improve the country.

Amen