I'm ashamed of my country

rw wrote in news:a05Uf.4007$HW2.908
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

US military investigates Iraq massacre claims:

http://tinyurl.com/leqng

I have little doubt that this is true. Out marines killed 15 unarmed
Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children.

For the third time in my life, I'm ashamed of (or for) my country. The
first time was the Mi Lai Massacre. The second, recently, was the Abu
Ghraib torture. Now this horror.

This has to stop.


Hey, we're making progress in the region. The liberated Afghanis are right
at this very moment trying to figure out if they can get around the death
penalty for a Christian convert by calling him insane.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying
that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at
this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out
to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things.

Benjamin Turek wrote:
I spent 19 months in Iraq, with a lot of good soldiers. I am not saying
that something like this could not happen, but it remains allegations at
this point (which were raised by a news journal). I hope it would turn out
to not be as it seems, but then again I naive about such things.

If you're a soldier in Iraq and you're constantly in danger of being
shot by a sniper or blown apart by an IED, I can almost forgive you for
going into a blind killing rampage when your buddy gets killed. Almost,
but not quite.

What I can't forgive are the callous, deceitful politicians who put you
in that position, and who continue to assert that things are going
"very, very well" in spite of simple, obvious reality, and who evade
responsibility for any mistakes.

The same holds true for the disgraceful Abu Graib torture scandal.
Rumsfeld asserts that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply and personally
approves interrogation methods that amount to torture. So who gets
punished when the **** hits the fan? The low-ranking mouth breathers who
were given the dirty work.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only option
left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of a few
people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end
justifies the mean.

I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are
going. If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are
getting a description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it
that they find interesting.

The biggest problem I have with our involvement in Iraq, is how we are
rebuilding it. We are building high tech schools and hospitals that could
be used by the people that are paying for them over here.

"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message
news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05...
I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only
option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of
a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end
justifies the mean.

sweet baby jesus. i would rather apologize on roff than to be forever
known as the author of those words.

the horror of that attitude is to obvious to be examined, or explained.

awh

Then I guess thats how I'll be remembered.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:58:54 GMT, "Wayne Harrison" wrote:


"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message
news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05...
I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only
option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of
a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end
justifies the mean.

sweet baby jesus. i would rather apologize on roff than to be forever
known as the author of those words.

the horror of that attitude is to obvious to be examined, or explained.

awh

wayno,

I'd simply offer this, and I'm not asking for your comment (although it is
welcome), just your consideration - if the torture (however you choose to define
it) of those who were intent upon harming your loved ones (or even just unknown
innocents), without the slightest hesitation, thought, or remorse, would (or
even likely could) save the lives of those self-same people, what would you want
done?

The horror of a lot of things is obvious, but it doesn't mean that sometimes the
best of men must endure a lessor horror while standing to prevent a greater
horror...and more than you can probably imagine, I hope you and yours never have
to get right up in the face of either...

TC,
R

"Benjamin Turek" wrote in message
news:ctkUf.14649$gD4.5326@trnddc05...

I would venture to say that at times torture of prisoners is the only
option left available. Its not pretty, but wounds heal. If the torture of
a few people leads to saving of a couple hundred lives, I believe the end
justifies the mean.

Undoubtedly it can save many lives.....maybe.....sometimes. At any rate
then, you blelieve that a group of Iraqi "insurgents" are perfectly
justifyed in torturing a downed American pilot.....say, a colonel,
perhaps.....who could reasonably be expected to know something about
upcoming operations in which hundreds of their compatriots might die.
Again, it might be highly effective.......but you're going to have some
trouble selling the program in Peoria.

I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are
going.

Say, the mother of a murdered Iraqi child, for instance.

If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are getting a
description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it that
they find interesting.

Actually, we were hoping you would fill us in on the uninteresting parts.
We are confident that you won't fail us.

The biggest problem I have with our involvement in Iraq, is how we are
rebuilding it. We are building high tech schools and hospitals that could
be used by the people that are paying for them over here.

Well, the money used to bomb and burn the ones they already had could have
been used by the people who paid for it over here too. But what good would
THAT do anyone?

Wolfgang

I guess everything is relative.

Benjamin Turek wrote:

I also believe it depends on who you talk to about how well things are
going. If you are only getting your info from the daily news, you are
getting a description of the whole picture, just the details of a part of it
that they find interesting.

One place I'm getting my information from is Iyad Allawi, our
hand-picked Iraq Interim Prime Minister. The guy we backed in the last
election. (He got 8% of the vote.) The guy who Bush said knew Iraq far
better than he did.

Allawi says Iraq is now in a civil war.

I don't believe a single word I hear about Iraq from the Bush
administration, and I believe very little I hear from them about
anything. Their record of lying is nearly perfect.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.