knotted leader/tippet help

Don Phillipson wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
m...


Learn to tie a surgeon's knot.

http://www.killroys.com/knots/surgeon.htm

It's stronger than a blood knot, faster and easier to tie, and works far
better for lines of very different diameters.

Not quite a pretty , though.


1. Prior experience with the surgeon's knot is
needed before you can get the link lengths anywhere
near specifications: but this can be learned.
2. When I tie with surgeon's knots the leader is
not straight, but deviates at each knot by 20+ degrees.
Is this RW's "non-prettiness" or just bad tying technique?

As an ex-blood-knot guy this used to bother me a lot. After I got better
at tying the surgeon's it became less of a problem. I don't think my
surgeon's knots make anywhere near a 20 degree angle, but they aren't as
true as blood knots.

I use the blood knot in heavy mono where it's easy to tie.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"notbob" wrote in message
...
I thought I'd interject a little fly fishing topic.

After turning my nice new tapered leader into a much shorter version due
to
wind knots, I've learned how to tie the brutal blood knot, which I suspect
was named after legions of anglers who blew the corresponding vessel while
trying to tie the damn thing. Anyway, I've lost several feet off my
formerly 4X taper and am now up to a 2X. A couple questions:

Q. Is it practical to drop a couple mils at a time on an all-knot leaders
or should it always be 1 mil at a time?

Yes, it's practical. In fact, it would be difficult to avoid.....and
there's no reason to.

Q. What are good "rule of thumb" lengths for each size from butt to tippet
for a med trout stream? I've seen some hair-raising equations, but am not
interested in getting quite that fanatical at this point.

I long ago encountered a simple formula that has worked very well for me.
Start with about thirty inches on 30 lb. test nylon mono. Add increasingly
smaller diameter line segments (the price size or strength doesn't really
matter all that much but 20 lb., 15, 12, 10, 6 works nicely). Each segment
should be 2/3 the length of the previous one until you get down to 10 inches
or so. From there, the remaining segments should each be 10 inches. Then
just add tippet.

Q. I've been buying 20 yd Trilene XL leader spools at $1.50 per, a great
price. But, since I'm no doubt going to be breaking these suckers off
wholesale, forever, would it be better to invest in Trilene fishing line?
IOW, is it the same stuff? I have a spool of .009 XL fishing line which I
used to extend out my shortened taper line. Is this ok?

I've always used the cheapest crap I could find at K-Mart for building the
leaders. Works fine.

Tippet is another matter.

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

...the price size...

More precisely, that should read "precise size".

Wolfgang

On 2008-04-15, Wolfgang wrote:

Tippet is another matter.

First, How so? Second, was the tippet on my original taper somehow
different than the rest of the leader or is a tapered leader just that and
I was supposed to add a tippet?

nb

"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2008-04-15, Wolfgang wrote:

Tippet is another matter.

First, How so?

Your choice of tippet will depend on more than simple diameter or strength.
Not that these considerations should be ignored, but other factors also come
into play. Stiffness versus limpness, memory, some people think color
matters.

Second, was the tippet on my original taper somehow
different than the rest of the leader or is a tapered leader just that and
I was supposed to add a tippet?

In principle, the skinny end of a knotless tapered leader IS the tippet.
Generally though, when people speak of tippet they refer to added material.
You can fish for a while with the factory end of the leader as tippet but
you'll quickly notice that it gets thicker and stiffer with each change of
bug. Since most commercial tapered leaders are fairly to very short anyway,
you might as well save time (and generally improve performance) by snipping
off a few inches on the leader straight out of the package.....it's quite
likely weaker than tippet of the same diameter anyway, and it is often
considerably out of round.....and tying in a suitable amount of the tippet
material.

Regardless of whether you use knotless leaders or tie your own, you get just
so many rebuilds before you have to start a new one. Typically, I get more
out of home made leaders, and they perform better. Lots cheaper too.

Wolfgang

"notbob" wrote



, I've lost several feet off my
formerly 4X taper and am now up to a 2X. A couple questions:



two words .... tippet rings

used properly they will all but eliminate this gradual loss of leader and
the need to 're-build'



But,
...... if you'd rather continue to suffer ( along with the majority of fly
fishers that refuse to try these rings :-) ....




......you can jump several sizes and still get a good knot .... using either
a surgeons knot or Gary Borgers 5/7 modification on a blood knot ... Borger
says you can drop down by 60% at each step and it seems to work, for me,
although 'my' leaders ( when I'm masochistic enough to build my own ) have
big jumps in the butt area and smaller ones nearer to the tippet.

.........There are a ton of leader formulas out there ... google, surf, use
that broadband


..........I like Maxima ( the brown stuff ) for most of the leader, RIO for
the tippet ... each part of a leader ( butt, taper, tippet ) has differing
function .... pick materials to suit


but I SUGGEST

buy a RIO 3X leader ... tie on a tippet ring with one of the '100%' knots
( can't remember the name of the one I use )


.... now tie any tippet from 3X to 6X directly to the ring ... if you must
use 7x, either start with a 5X RIO leader and a ring or tie first some 5X
then your 7X to the ring on your 3X ... IF you are throwing streamers, tie
the ring onto a 0X or 1X leader and add tippet to suit your fly .... etc etc
..... I usually use loop to loop to attach leader to line ( except for my
spring creek rod and I always use the same leader on it ) rw, and others
will be along soon to tell you why loop to loop is only for fools l( like
the people at RIO and SA tha now built the loops into their lines :-)

tying your own leaders is a PIA and IMHO best reserved for later in your
fishing career ... master the easy **** first ( and it's not the knoting
that's difficult, it's the formula to choose and the 'why' of same ... you
can't choose a formula to suit you and your fishing until you get decent at
casting and choose a fishing style )


Note: this is the last time I'll suggest you try tippet rings ... you can
lead a notbob to the answer but you can't make him open his eyes and see it
G

"Larry L" wrote

( can't remember the name of the one I use )



Remembered .... Pitzen knot .... give it a try

On 2008-04-15, notbob wrote:

Q. Is it practical to drop a couple mils at a time on an all-knot leaders
or should it always be 1 mil at a time?

I just ran across a possible answer to this question. To quote:

"The general rule of thumb is that you can safely skip a single "X" size
when joining monofilament sizes greater than or equal to 4X. When joining
sizes smaller than 4X, you should not skip any sizes. In other words, 4X
would be tied to 5X which would be tied to 6X and so on (assuming, of
course, you want a 6X tippet). Going directly from 4X to 6X is asking for
trouble!"

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com...blood_knot.htm

Although this page IS about blood knots, He doesn't clarify as to whether
this is a good rule of thumb for leader/tippets in general or only in
reference to using blood knots. Comments?

nb

nb

notbob wrote:
On 2008-04-15, notbob wrote:

Q. Is it practical to drop a couple mils at a time on an all-knot leaders
or should it always be 1 mil at a time?


I just ran across a possible answer to this question. To quote:

"The general rule of thumb is that you can safely skip a single "X" size
when joining monofilament sizes greater than or equal to 4X. When joining
sizes smaller than 4X, you should not skip any sizes. In other words, 4X
would be tied to 5X which would be tied to 6X and so on (assuming, of
course, you want a 6X tippet). Going directly from 4X to 6X is asking for
trouble!"

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com...blood_knot.htm

Although this page IS about blood knots, He doesn't clarify as to whether
this is a good rule of thumb for leader/tippets in general or only in
reference to using blood knots. Comments?

nb

nb

I think you're obsessing about this. :-)

Tying 4x to 6x, or 3x to 5x (more common in my case), is just fine.

Quite often I'll clip my leader way back and tie on a long section 4x or
5x for low-drag, deep nymphing. If I see fish rising I'll tie a dry fly
onto the weird, unbalanced leader and it turns over well enough.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2008-04-15, rw wrote:

I think you're obsessing about this. :-)

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that's what flyfishing (is it one or two?) is all
about.

Tying 4x to 6x, or 3x to 5x (more common in my case), is just fine.

Thank you.

nb