OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote


Any advice or pointers appreciated.



Consistency is far more important than specific 'method' ... attitude
(trainer's ) is more important than technique

Honestly, I haven't read a book on training in years
but
you asked so here ya go, some thoughts

1) The first step in training is the hardest and the most important. It
is to decide EXACTLY what you want the dog trained to do! Don't laugh,
I've trained hundreds for hundreds of people and none of those people
started with a clear, precise, detailed, idea of what they wanted ( I always
ask ).

Define everything as detailed as you can ... example, if she is to ride in
the canoe ... where?, in what posture?, on what command?, facing what
direction?, is she allowed to move when a fish is flopping near by about to
be landed? what command releases her to get out? before you and other
humans, or after? etc etc ... decide BEFORE the first time she gets in one
( on dry ground so it ain't too scary ;-) and train basics BEFORE that day
too ( say the 'down' command, )

The more detailed a picture of your ideal dog you get in your minds eye the
better off you are .. and for ALL her tasks ... decide NOW what areas of the
house she can access, what furniture she can climb on, and be consistent
from "Day One." ( oh, and those urgent 3AM calls from her will require a
trip outside and be truly urgent ;-)

If you have questions what a 'good hunting dog" should do, try to find a
Hunt Test to go see, you'll get some ideas, but, mainly, decide for yourself
.... each hunter has different needs and desires ( why I hate training gun
dogs and prefer the much more demanding work of trial dogs where, at least,
I'm certain what the goal is in advance )

2) The more steps you can break down getting from where you are... to where
you want to be, ...the better. Much like my RosettaStone,, the steps
should be nearly invisible, ie "seemless" to the student. Simple example
.... she should learn to sit/stay while you walk away 2 feet before you try
4 feet !!

Doh, you say! But assuming a dog understands what it really doesn't is
the single biggest cause of training problems. I've seen guys ( henceforth
referred to as 'morons' ) that couldn't even get Fido to sit stay in the
backyard during minor distractions, erupt in fury when Fido broke to shot
out hunting, thinking the poor beast understood 'stay" ... each tiny step
is a NEW step to a dog ... they do NOT extrapolate well ... remember that
to keep things pleasant ( I wrote part of a book one time, to be
called "A Pleasant Journey" about training ... the title suggests my
philosophy ( although I'm very demanding and use an e-collar ) and training
CAN be very pleasant for both animals involved, 99.8% of the time, if you
keep progress seemless and demands consistent

3) While training, look at your dog constantly at the same time keeping a
mental image of what you're aiming for, in your mind. IF your efforts are
making the real dog look a little more like that ideal, continue ( only has
to be a little each day ... another way to say seemless steps ... but a
little is essential ) .

BUT, if not, do NOT continue to do the same old thing, over and over
(regardless if it's in the book or not ) ... invent something new, or look
for a new added 'step,' a new way to try and help her understand both what
you want and that she must do it. "More of the same" when the "same"
isn't working is **** poor dog training or other form of leadership .. Don't
be a Republican. G

4) If you have specific questions or problems ( remember I specialzed in
Field Trial retrievers, we recently got my first 'pet/ house dog' in 50
years .. my 'general' training experience is limited ) .. feel free to
ask,



Larry L

OH ... one thing ... a hunting dog should NEVER be allowed to jump on
anybody ... period, no exceptions, not in your house, not when she's glad
you're home from work, NEVER ... a 12 gauge and a jumping dog is a bad mix

Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Any advice or pointers appreciated.

Consistency is far more important than specific 'method' ... attitude
(trainer's ) is more important than technique
snip
OH ... one thing ... a hunting dog should NEVER be allowed to jump on
anybody ... period, no exceptions, not in your house, not when she's glad
you're home from work, NEVER ... a 12 gauge and a jumping dog is a bad mix

Thanks Larry. She will be a gun dog, both upland and waterfowl
retriever but she'll also have a dog bed in front of the fireplace,
free access to the couch and our bed upstairs. (Training a dog is
a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-)

We did OK with the basic obedience training with Kipper, he was
smart and we were kind and consistent. The instructors at the
dog training club were impressed that a hound dog could be trained
much at all. (Prejudice is what I call it. ;-) But a few roffians
have met Kipper and can attest that he was pretty well behaved.

I guess I'm just freaking out at having my first "hunting dog"
to train. I hope my new puppy is of the forgiving sort.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 17-Apr-2008, Ken Fortenberry wrote:

(Training a dog is
a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-)


On 17-Apr-2008, Ken Fortenberry wrote:

(Training a dog is
a piece of cake compared to training a wife. ;-)

True words
I understand the reason for the pedigree and the predicatability of their
behavior
We have a German Short Haired Poointer bitch and border collie male and they
do their jobs
Chasing birds and herding kids, cars, horses motorcyles etc

Good luck
You have 2-3 years of crazy puppyhood coming
'Do not let him chew on your waders or flyrods

Fred

In article ,
says...

Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books
on dog training.


"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1

I also like Robinson:

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunti...riever-Jerome-
Robinson/dp/1558219366/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-
12

and Tarrant:

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunting-Retriever-New-
Program/dp/0876055757/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208489214&sr=1-13

I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.

I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.

Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself. I'm happy enough knowing that I still have a bunch of ducks and
pheasants stacked up in the freezer.

Kevin
--
Kevin Vang
reply to kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

Kevin Vang wrote:
says...
Perhaps you can return the favor and recommend a book or books
on dog training.

"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1

I also like Robinson:

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunti...riever-Jerome-
Robinson/dp/1558219366/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-
12

and Tarrant:

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Hunting-Retriever-New-
Program/dp/0876055757/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208489214&sr=1-13

I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.

I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.

Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself. I'm happy enough knowing that I still have a bunch of ducks and
pheasants stacked up in the freezer.

Thanks for the book recommendations.

No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be
suited for American field trials even though she comes from a
long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain.
British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American
cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male
British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and
while some have competed well in American field trials their
small stature puts them at a disadvantage.

We'll have to have that Dakota style Cast & Blast Clave one of
these autumns, the 9wt and 20 gauge Clave !

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote


No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be
suited for American field trials even though she comes from a
long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain.
British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American
cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male
British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and
while some have competed well in American field trials their
small stature puts them at a disadvantage.



A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog ...
mainly because of the quieter temperament

You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet?

Larry L wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
No, I'm not interested in field trials either. My dog won't be
suited for American field trials even though she comes from a
long line of Field Trial Champions in Ireland and Britain.
British Labradors are significantly smaller than their American
cousins, slighter of build and with a quieter temperament. Male
British Labs average 70-75 pounds, the females 53-58 pounds and
while some have competed well in American field trials their
small stature puts them at a disadvantage.

A dog from British Trial lines is an EXCELLENT choice for a gun dog ...
mainly because of the quieter temperament

You'll do great Ken, keep us updated ... got a name yet?

Thanks Larry. We want a name that reflects the Irish in her
bloodline and starts with a K. (My wife is Kristine with a
K, my first name starts with a K, so there you have it. ;-)
I'm leaning toward Kerry and my wife seems partial to Kelty.

--
Ken Fortenberry

In article ,
says...
We'll have to have that Dakota style Cast & Blast Clave one of
these autumns, the 9wt and 20 gauge Clave !


The sooner the better! We have had 5 really mild winters in a
row, and the pheasant populations are crazy high right now. I
don't know how long it will last, because one severe blizzard,
or Congress ending CRP, could end it all.

Ducks are hurting because of the drought, but geese are doing
fine, and the pike fishing has been great lately. In fact, I
believe I'll have to check if the ice is started to thaw on
some local lakes tomorrow...

Kevin

--
Kevin Vang
reply to kevin dot vang at minotstateu dot edu

"Kevin Vang" wrote

"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1



Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into
rock, back then ...





I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.



I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.
His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on
dogs ... makes ya wonder )




I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.


I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch
work to get a good delivery

... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't
natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness
.... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that
naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom
and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful



Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself.


the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one,
NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics'
for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both
people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have
bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training
ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game
( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was
$250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ...
these people are serious about winning )

Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested
in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ...
"most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the
hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours ..
it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer )

Larry L wrote:

"Kevin Vang" wrote


"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1




Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into
rock, back then ...





I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.




I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.
His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on
dogs ... makes ya wonder )





I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.



I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch
work to get a good delivery

... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't
natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness
... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that
naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom
and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful




Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself.



the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one,
NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics'
for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both
people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have
bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training
ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game
( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was
$250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ...
these people are serious about winning )

Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested
in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ...
"most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the
hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours ..
it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer )




at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?

i must lack the genetic stuff that appreciates the huge dollars involved
in the "bloodline" commerce in dogs. my relationship with canines has
always been at the most basic and common level...essentially their
servant and (hopefully) friend. i've observed the intensity and
competitiveness of field trial and hunt training...always with electric
shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. i know folks that have
spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of
them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....

jeff