This is good

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:46 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote in message
. ..
Calif Bill wrote:


The sad part is blah, blah, blah...



given the deep economic hole we're in, without regard to who should be
blamed, how do you propose we cut taxes and spending? how do you propose,
as a society and country, that we treat our senior citizens and the
impoverished? i think you are wrong about obama and his ability and his
worth to our country. ... why do you think principled and experienced
republicans are endorsing obama?

jeff

When you have little money in the family account, do you spend your way out
of debt?



no, i work harder, collect accounts due, etc. but it's not really the
same thing or even a good analogy in my opinion. again...how do you
propose we cut taxes and spending under the existing circumstances, and
what do we do about our seniors and poor?

Which "seniors" and which "poor?" Some of them should be left to fend
for themselves, while others should have their capital input returned
with a reasonable rate of interest and still others should receive
_minimal_ assistance without having contributed. For example, as one
who is "affluent" in the overall scheme of things, are you prepared to
volunteer to accept your contributions to SSI back with a small rate of
return?

TC,
R

jeff

On Oct 24, 1:54*pm, Jeff wrote:
sorting
Dave

"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Calif Bill wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote in message
. ..
Calif Bill wrote:


The sad part is blah, blah, blah...



given the deep economic hole we're in, without regard to who should be
blamed, how do you propose we cut taxes and spending? how do you
propose, as a society and country, that we treat our senior citizens and
the impoverished? i think you are wrong about obama and his ability and
his worth to our country. ... why do you think principled and
experienced republicans are endorsing obama?

jeff

When you have little money in the family account, do you spend your way
out of debt?

no, i work harder, collect accounts due, etc. but it's not really the
same thing or even a good analogy in my opinion. again...how do you
propose we cut taxes and spending under the existing circumstances, and
what do we do about our seniors and poor?

jeff

But the Pol's want to spend us outta debt. Most seniors are not destitute.
Seniorhood comes with a 10% discount a lot of places, but as a group they
are the wealthy demographic in the country. And poor is realitive. Look at
our poor, lots have cars, Color TV, and are fat. I owned a business a lot
of years ago, and we hired casual labor to clean the storage yard at times.
Most were poor, but they knew every angle to milk the system. They did not
want to work. Those can die for all my sympathy. I want society to help
those who can not help themselves. Those with a true handicap. Mental
problems, health problems, not those who park in the handicapped slot,
because they have a sticker because they weigh 400 pounds and can not walk.
Not those who dropped out of school because they were bored. Was in Costa
Rica early this year. 99% literacy rate. School is mandatory. You should
be in school and are not and the cop sees you on the street. You are picked
up. Here the parents do not even know where the kid is a lot of time.
Example: Oakland police picked up a kid out in the streets at midnight. 12
years old. Parents were upset that the police were picking on the kid. Sad
is it not?

The government can collect owed money, but they can not work hard / longer
for more income. Or they can raise prices. If you try to raise your price
excessively your business fails. Same with the government, they raise taxes
excessively and lots of business's fail

"Calif Bill" wrote


The sad part is



whisper Pss... Bill, your senility is showing /whisper


How did the trip to Burney go? Did you fish the Fall River? I have an
Outback 'Fall River Special' Pram I bought 20++ years ago especially to fish
there, but I haven't been up there in at least 10. Last time I was there
the .. um, unnamed ... fly shop was 'guiding' it's Johns by drifting boats
sideways through pods of rising fish (putting them down of course) with big
bobbers and nymphs while the guide shouted "set, set" to said Johns ... so
pathetic and sickening, so 'how many' 'how many' 'how many' that I've
never had the desire to go back and be forced to witness it again.





BTW, I've supported Obama precisely because I feel he's the best hope for
rebuilding this country and giving my son's ( he's 21) generation a chance
to somewhat reverse our errors. But, the biggest challenges they face will
only be indirectly financial and it will take investment to have any prayer
of solving them.


I'm retired, and watching my personal security go down daily as markets
crumble, it's scary **** I agree, but no where near as scary as a future of
'more of the same' for my kid.

MY response to my fears? I sent a few more of my scarce buck$ to Obama last
night, it's an investment for my kid. NO, I don't expect that
investment to make big improvements in MY remaining life, and NO I see no
guarantees except that failure to wisely invest will destroy this country.
The problems on the horizon are huge and far more important than just GDP
and Wall Street. Because I love my kid ( most kids, really ;-) I'm
willing to cut back for them and I'm willing to gamble on a new direction
.... not much of a gamble really, since the old one is certain failure.




When it comes to government, "small" is always relative, it's always big by
definition, "smart" and "honest" are the keys to success ... Obama is smart
and honest, smart enough to see years down the path, smart enough to
surround himself with the very best in each field and of all pursuasions and
actually listen to them, and honest enough to actually give a **** about
representing the people and working for their benefit ... long term as well
as short.



"Your old road is rapidly aging, please get out of the new one if you can't
lend a hand" G


ASIDE: For years it's seemed to me that the Republicans ( not Joe the
Whatever, or the Churchy Moms that just vote R ... the smoke filled room
guys at the top of the party ) do NOT see themselves as "representatives of
the people" rather they see themselves as "the ruling class" Those two
things are very different.

Given the inconvenience of our system they have to get people to vote for
them. Like ruling classes over history they see the peasants as stupid and
treat them that way ... thus Palin and Bush II and 'policy' that appeals
to one issue sound bite accepting wingnuts ( 'get yo hand off my gun,'
'protect all babies until they are born, then to hell with em,' 'NO taxes' )
As long as those wingnuts don't fight more money and power going to the
already rich and too powerful, those rich and powerful 'rulers' are willing
to 'support' such crap, whether they believe it or not ( look how far
"socially right" McCain claims to have moved in the last 4 years as he's
prepared to run, does anyone actually believe that change is real, I don't
..... but I DO believe it's totally dishonest ).

END ASIDE:

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote


The sad part is



whisper Pss... Bill, your senility is showing /whisper


How did the trip to Burney go? Did you fish the Fall River? I have an
Outback 'Fall River Special' Pram I bought 20++ years ago especially to
fish there, but I haven't been up there in at least 10. Last time I was
there the .. um, unnamed ... fly shop was 'guiding' it's Johns by drifting
boats sideways through pods of rising fish (putting them down of course)
with big bobbers and nymphs while the guide shouted "set, set" to said
Johns ... so pathetic and sickening, so 'how many' 'how many' 'how many'
that I've never had the desire to go back and be forced to witness it
again.





BTW, I've supported Obama precisely because I feel he's the best hope for
rebuilding this country and giving my son's ( he's 21) generation a chance
to somewhat reverse our errors. But, the biggest challenges they face
will only be indirectly financial and it will take investment to have any
prayer of solving them.


I'm retired, and watching my personal security go down daily as markets
crumble, it's scary **** I agree, but no where near as scary as a future
of 'more of the same' for my kid.

MY response to my fears? I sent a few more of my scarce buck$ to Obama
last night, it's an investment for my kid. NO, I don't expect that
investment to make big improvements in MY remaining life, and NO I see no
guarantees except that failure to wisely invest will destroy this country.
The problems on the horizon are huge and far more important than just GDP
and Wall Street. Because I love my kid ( most kids, really ;-) I'm
willing to cut back for them and I'm willing to gamble on a new direction
... not much of a gamble really, since the old one is certain failure.




When it comes to government, "small" is always relative, it's always big
by definition, "smart" and "honest" are the keys to success ... Obama is
smart and honest, smart enough to see years down the path, smart enough to
surround himself with the very best in each field and of all pursuasions
and actually listen to them, and honest enough to actually give a ****
about representing the people and working for their benefit ... long term
as well as short.



"Your old road is rapidly aging, please get out of the new one if you
can't lend a hand" G


ASIDE: For years it's seemed to me that the Republicans ( not Joe the
Whatever, or the Churchy Moms that just vote R ... the smoke filled room
guys at the top of the party ) do NOT see themselves as "representatives
of the people" rather they see themselves as "the ruling class"
Those two things are very different.

Given the inconvenience of our system they have to get people to vote for
them. Like ruling classes over history they see the peasants as stupid
and treat them that way ... thus Palin and Bush II and 'policy' that
appeals to one issue sound bite accepting wingnuts ( 'get yo hand off my
gun,' 'protect all babies until they are born, then to hell with em,' 'NO
taxes' ) As long as those wingnuts don't fight more money and power going
to the already rich and too powerful, those rich and powerful 'rulers' are
willing to 'support' such crap, whether they believe it or not ( look how
far "socially right" McCain claims to have moved in the last 4 years as
he's prepared to run, does anyone actually believe that change is real, I
don't .... but I DO believe it's totally dishonest ).

END ASIDE:



As I asked Mr. Miller, "do you spend your way out of debt?". And I do not
feel Obama is honest. As Chicago friends say, Obama as accomplished nothing
for them.

As to Burney, Fishing was OK, catching was bad. Was more of an exploration
trip. Did not fish the Hat Creek or Fall River. Went up to Big Lake, and
was very much an Algae hole. We were looking at taking the Canoe or Kayak
up there from the State Parks pictures of the springs are. Could not find
the springs until a nice gentleman told us to follow him at the end of the
day. Water went from 6" vis to 20' and see the bottom in about a 20'
distance. Saw lots of small trout and wife saw one about 24". But to late
in the day to stay and fish, as wanted to get to the launch ramp while it
was still light and I could find it. Next day went to Lake Britton and
fished Burney Creek. Lots of really big Stoneflies. Maybe the trout were
sated, but only one person caught a trout. Went exploring Lake Britton and
did try for some smallmouth. Failed on that endeavor also. But mid 30's at
night and 70's during the day made for a nice trip. So much Algae in the
lake, that I thought I was going to run aground at the ramp. Looked like
you were seeing the greenish bottom about 12" deep. Was 24' deep according
to the depth finder. Think I may go up there next year, but more likely
take the Canoe / kayaks to June Lake area. Going out to fish Stripers in
the Sac Delta tomorrow.

"Calif Bill" wrote










take the Canoe / kayaks to June Lake area. Going out to fish Stripers in
the Sac Delta tomorrow.



Let us know how it goes

I haven't been out there in several years. I "need" to get a new heavy
rod, my old Loomis 8wt is too heavy and slow for an old man. Where do you
go out there? I go to Franks Track and I also like San Luis forebay for
Stripers.

I spent an hour this morning on the Stanislaus at Honolulu Bar , got a
couple hits but fighting the tough wading to watch a bobber got old quick.



As for the OT thread ... I doubt if many here are more fiscally
conservative than myself ... I haven't had any debt of any kind except for a
mortgage on a small 2 bedroom home and a few acres of dirt around it in many
years ... I drive a '92 Dodge with 274,568 miles on it and I'm aiming to
keep it another year or two, if possible ... I don't buy anything unless I
really feel it's needed, not just for budget reasons but for ecological
ones. I talk the talk .... and try hard to walk the walk, too.

BUT, I am in my fourth year of big spending on my son's college education
....because we have to invest .... not just scrimp, ... to insure the future

Without investment in alternate energy, infrastucture, and education to help
our kids compete, they are doomed. With the investment it will still be
damn tough for them. "Investment" is NOT giving more money to the rich
people, btw.

What, imho, we REALLY need is to teach our kids that "I am what I own" is a
pathetic, empty, thing to feel and think about oneself. But, kid's, damn
'em, learn from watching, not from what they are told .... drive that old
clunker another couple years and smile as you do it and maybe our kids will
get the message.

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote










take the Canoe / kayaks to June Lake area. Going out to fish Stripers in
the Sac Delta tomorrow.



Let us know how it goes

I haven't been out there in several years. I "need" to get a new heavy
rod, my old Loomis 8wt is too heavy and slow for an old man. Where do you
go out there? I go to Franks Track and I also like San Luis forebay for
Stripers.

I spent an hour this morning on the Stanislaus at Honolulu Bar , got a
couple hits but fighting the tough wading to watch a bobber got old quick.



As for the OT thread ... I doubt if many here are more fiscally
conservative than myself ... I haven't had any debt of any kind except for
a mortgage on a small 2 bedroom home and a few acres of dirt around it in
many years ... I drive a '92 Dodge with 274,568 miles on it and I'm aiming
to keep it another year or two, if possible ... I don't buy anything
unless I really feel it's needed, not just for budget reasons but for
ecological ones. I talk the talk .... and try hard to walk the walk,
too.

BUT, I am in my fourth year of big spending on my son's college education
...because we have to invest .... not just scrimp, ... to insure the
future

Without investment in alternate energy, infrastucture, and education to
help our kids compete, they are doomed. With the investment it will
still be damn tough for them. "Investment" is NOT giving more money to
the rich people, btw.

What, imho, we REALLY need is to teach our kids that "I am what I own" is
a pathetic, empty, thing to feel and think about oneself. But, kid's,
damn 'em, learn from watching, not from what they are told .... drive that
old clunker another couple years and smile as you do it and maybe our kids
will get the message.



I am thinking Franks tract or Mildred Island. If the wind stays away, maybe
San Pablo bay. The World series bite has been very good some years.

On Oct 24, 1:22*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:


Thats a line straight from the play book. What exactly do the Chicago
Friends say? They probably don't count Obama's work on Nuclear
Nonproliferation. And I presume organizing a nationwide winning
campaign to throw the corrupt, incompetent Repubs out on their ass,
restore constitutional government, start paying our bills again, and
reclaiming the honor of the country from the thieves, traitors and
scumbags probably doesn't count either. At the rate the Repubs are
Nationalizing things, this country could be Socialist before Obama
takes the oath. Then I guess we will have to listen to the same old
crap about how "Clinton made em do it" and fairy tales about how the
Democrats actually snuck in there and stole the money.

Face it. The ideology of greed first, USA second failed. The party is
over. Time to pay the piper, get down to work and stop making excuses
for the disastrous results of a poisonous ideology.

Dave
Ron Paul is just another Texas crook. He and Nader should date.