"the" movie ...years later ... review

On Dec 18, 3:55*am, DaveS wrote:
On Dec 17, 9:12*pm, Giles wrote:





On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote:

Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit.

Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD
of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago..
I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift )

After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly
fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to
fly fishing.

Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly
fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie
shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent
portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get
drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural
problems.... *that are far less than appealing.

There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ...
distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even
today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down

Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had
it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more
desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be.

Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture
different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the
journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the
famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western
folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.
Still probably are *out on the edge.

The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main
business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out
each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition
for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just
barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the
10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the
communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for
ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober.

*I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected
accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter
week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not
that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom
died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to
edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother.

I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know
that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved
"downhill skier" too.

Dave

That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of
yuppies. *Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good
romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. *Norman
Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance.
He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of
it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath.

As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by
bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well,
abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is
built. *Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing
to another since time immemorial. *Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald?
Twain? *Hemingway? *Shakespeare? *Chaucer?

You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto.

giles- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man.

Can't be helped.....it's bound happen from time to time despite our
best efforts.

Way ahead of his time. I
understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who
Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been
purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on
the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North
America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the
artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the
transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people.
(Lennie lenape)

The only work of DeVoto's I have at hand is "The Western Paradox: A
Conservation Reader." A hasty perusal of the index (interrupted by
several delicious forays into the body of the text) reveals no mention
of Carnegie, let alone the artist who accompanied him. I don't recall
Carnegie from any other of DeVoto's works I've encountered. The Royal
Alberta Museum's website makes no reference to an artist on the trip
that I can find. Even more surprising, Carnegie himself says nothing
about an artist who accompanied him in the preface to his book,
"Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains" (I haven't had time to search
the whole volume)

http://books.google.com/books?id=MR8...age&q=&f=false

Moreover, in the preface he states:

"As regards the illustrations, whether on separate pages or attached
to the letterpress of the work, the greater number of these are
derived from my own sketches and drawings; the exception entirely
consisting in those which have been reproduced from photographs, or
founded on them with some slight alteration.

To the former class belong all, save one, of the illustrations of
scenery, every example of which may be relied on as a truthful though
imperfect portrayal of Nature, — notwithstanding the roughness of my
drawings, and the marvellous improvement in all artistic qualities
which they have sustained under Mr. Whymper's skilful hand.

To the latter class must be referred the various representations of
animals' heads, taken from skulls and stuffed specimens in my
possession; also several relating to other objects—viz., Red River
Fire-bags,—Cree Whip,—Edmonton Hunter's Dag,—Assiniboine Fire-bag,
Knife-sheath, and Pipe, —all of which are engraved from excellent
photographs by Mr. Rodgers, of Montrose ; and in addition to these the
view of Minnclialia Falls, by Mr. Whitney, a St. Paul photographer,
the only landscape for which my own pencil is not originally
responsible.

Most of the smaller and less elaborate illustrations belong to the
former of these classes, being facsimiles, or nearly so, of pen-and-
ink memoranda hastily sketched into my journal; the exceptions are as
follows :—Buffalo-hide Line,— Whisky, —Snow-shoe and Skida,—sketches
only recently prepared by me expressly for the present volume."

The Mr. Whymper referred to seems likely to be Edward Whymper,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whymper

who visited the Canadian Rockies himself, 40 years or so after
Carnegie, but I can't find anything that suggests that he was with
Carnegie, and Carnegie's preface appears to suggest that Whymper's
services were rendered after the fact.

It isn't clear to me from the above text whether Mr. Rodgers was
responsible for the excellent photographs or the engravings made from
them but in either case, he too appears to have done his work in
preparing the book for publications, not in situ, as it were.

So, any idea who the artist was?

giles

On Dec 18, 8:19*am, Giles wrote:
On Dec 18, 3:55*am, DaveS wrote:





On Dec 17, 9:12*pm, Giles wrote:

On Dec 17, 9:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

On Dec 17, 11:51*am, Larry L wrote:

Well, I tend to run a little behind, I admit.

Last night I finally gave into boredom to the point of watching a DVD
of "A River Runs Through It" that was given to me several years ago.
I had never seen it before, or read the book ( I have it too, a gift )

After years of hearing others blaming this movie for an upsurge in fly
fishing fad I expected something entirely different ... relative to
fly fishing.

Honestly I didn't see a single thing that would make ME want to fly
fish if I didn't already. * *And as for visiting Montana, this movie
shows much of it's worst side, imho. * *Although not to the extent
portrayed, at this point in time, Montana does have deep rooted "get
drunk and fight for lack of anything else to do" cultural
problems.... *that are far less than appealing.

There are also many 'geographical' irregularities in the movie ....
distances covered by Model A in a blink that are a long drive even
today, in reality. * I'd give the movie both thumbs down

Any Way .... I think that the FFing fad we went through either had
it's roots elsewhere than "the movie" OR our culture is even more
desperate for something real to cling to than even I believe it to be.

Boy I don't know. I really liked the film and still can picture
different scenes. Particularly the obsessed hunting quality of the
journalist brother's fishing style. Also the portrayal of the
famdamily and the bro's family, *those ARE like some of the Western
folk like when I came out from NJ. And the bar in Helena? dead on. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.
Still probably are *out on the edge.

The edge of lawlessness? . . . reminded me of Park City when the main
business was still the mine and the 30 cars of high grade shipped out
each week. Where you could work the mine if you couldn't make tuition
for a semester. Smoke a joint and no one cared, the ski lodge just
barely making it and Ziggy (keep the knives away from him) Vet of the
10th Mountain division soaking out his old bones and gin in the
communal tubs at the ex-whorehouse we all holed up in. Pop Jencks for
ice cream, and a decent doc in the dispensary if he was sober.

*I loved that film and should rent it this weekend. It reflected
accurately I feel the unapologetic West I fled to after each winter
week of classes at BYU. And the truth be told, these people were not
that different than the working people I grew up with, several of whom
died too early like the one brother and a very few who went on to
edamucated middle class respectability like the other brother.

I have no idea why that movie was so popular with yuppies. I do know
that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved
"downhill skier" too.

Dave

That movie was popular with yuppies because it was the time of
yuppies. *Post adolescent males have always been suckers for a good
romance......and it was that in spades.....or even a bad one. *Norman
Maclean was not a prolific author but he had a keen sense of romance.
He wrote a very good story and Redford made a very good movie out of
it......notwithstanding the objections of a proud confessed sociopath..

As for the abject nonsense about "the movie" ruining fly fishing by
bringing hordes money dripping idiots out into the streams......well,
abject nonsense is the stuff on which the bulk of human wisdom is
built. *Money dripping idiots have been flitting about from one thing
to another since time immemorial. *Anybody here ever read Fitzgerald?
Twain? *Hemingway? *Shakespeare? *Chaucer?

You want someone with a real feel for the west, try DeVoto.

giles- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We've agreed on this before, DeVoto d' man.

Can't be helped.....it's bound happen from time to time despite our
best efforts. * * * *

Way ahead of his time. I
understand that the Southesk collection of that Scotsman Earl (who
Devoto speaks of when he writes about the Fur companies) has been
purchased by the Royal Alberta Museaum. This stuff was collected on
the Northern Plains in the 1850s and has not been shown in North
America before. DeVoto got some unique and early insights from the
artist that traveled with the Earl including evidence of the
transformation of some Eastern tribes, into plains horse people.
(Lennie lenape)

The only work of DeVoto's I have at hand is "The Western Paradox: A
Conservation Reader." *A hasty perusal of the index (interrupted by
several delicious forays into the body of the text) reveals no mention
of Carnegie, let alone the artist who accompanied him. *I don't recall
Carnegie from any other of DeVoto's works I've encountered. *The Royal
Alberta Museum's website makes no reference to an artist on the trip
that I can find. *Even more surprising, Carnegie himself says nothing
about an artist who accompanied him in the preface to his book,
"Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains" *(I haven't had time to search
the whole volume)

http://books.google.com/books?id=MR8...dq=inauthor:%2...

Moreover, in the preface he states:

"As regards the illustrations, whether on separate pages or attached
to the letterpress of the work, the greater number of these are
derived from my own sketches and drawings; the exception entirely
consisting in those which have been reproduced from photographs, or
founded on them with some slight alteration.

To the former class belong all, save one, of the illustrations of
scenery, every example of which may be relied on as a truthful though
imperfect portrayal of Nature, — notwithstanding the roughness of my
drawings, and the marvellous improvement in all artistic qualities
which they have sustained under Mr. Whymper's skilful hand.

To the latter class must be referred the various representations of
animals' heads, taken from skulls and stuffed specimens in my
possession; also several relating to other objects—viz., Red River
Fire-bags,—Cree Whip,—Edmonton Hunter's Dag,—Assiniboine Fire-bag,
Knife-sheath, and Pipe, —all of which are engraved from excellent
photographs by Mr. Rodgers, of Montrose ; and in addition to these the
view of Minnclialia Falls, by Mr. Whitney, a St. Paul photographer,
the only landscape for which my own pencil is not originally
responsible.

Most of the smaller and less elaborate illustrations belong to the
former of these classes, being facsimiles, or nearly so, of pen-and-
ink memoranda hastily sketched into my journal; the exceptions are as
follows :—Buffalo-hide Line,— Whisky, —Snow-shoe and Skida,—sketches
only recently prepared by me expressly for the present volume."

The Mr. Whymper referred to seems likely to be Edward Whymper,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whymper

who visited the Canadian Rockies himself, 40 years or so after
Carnegie, but I can't find anything that suggests that he was with
Carnegie, and Carnegie's preface appears to suggest that Whymper's
services were rendered after the fact.

It isn't clear to me from the above text whether Mr. Rodgers was
responsible for the excellent photographs or the engravings made from
them but in either case, he too appears to have done his work in
preparing the book for publications, not in situ, as it were.

So, any idea who the artist was?

giles- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like we are talking about 2 different people, books etc.. but
the Earl of Southesk, was James Carnegie so lets see if they tails
connect.

I was referring to Bernard DeVoto, the historian and writer, and in
particular his 1947 book, "Across the Wide Missouri," focused on the
period 1833-1838, and the expedition headed by Willian Drummond
Stewart, who brought Alfred Jacob Miller an artist with him. The book
contains 96 repros, some in color of contemporaneous paintings by
Miller, Bodmer and Catlin.

This is a page on Stewart, the "second son . . . of Sir George
Steward, 17th. lord of Grandtully, fifth baronet of Murthly."

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/biography/wdstewart.htm`

He went out with a Sublette pack train in 1833, went all over Mountain
Man country, and even made it to the last trapper rendezvous in 1843.
He was ex 6th Dragoon Guards and 15th Kings Hussars, at Waterloo etc.

Ah hah!
Apparently I mixed up William Drummond Stewart with James Carnegie,
9th Earl of Southesk who collected ethnological material during a
hunting trip in 1859-1860 and salted the material away in GB until it
was auctioned and the bulk acquired by the Royal Alberta Museum in
2006.

http://www.royalalbertamuseum.ca/hum...s/collects.htm

Keeping these damn minor British nobles straight is something I am not
good at. Now lets see if we are talking about the same DeVoto:

Bernard DeVoto (1897-1955) was a Utahn, Uof U, then Harvard then
taught at Northwestern. He wrote "Across the Wide Missouri" in 1947,
Pulitzer in '48.
OK, I get it, "Western Paradox: a Conservation Reader," is a
relatively new (?)collection and edit of DeVotos crusading essays on
the fading West, published by Yale in 2001. Apparently very popular
now. Great, we are at least talking about the same DeVoto. And talk
about ahead of his time, yep for sure. Wallace Stegner sure talked him
up and Stegner is/was a near God of the West. So, we are referencing
two idff books. Mystery solved.

Well, conclusion: I need to read "Paradox" and check out Whymper and
you might check out "Across the Wide Missouri." The Alberta/Carnegie
collection still looks incredible, the Blood women's dress alone is
incredible, and the pix in "Across" offer lots.

Dave

"DaveS" wrote

I do know
that Redford has a real feel for the inter-mountain West. I loved
"downhill skier" too.

Dave

same here. beautifully filmed. i thought "jeremiah johnson" was
spectacular.

yfitons
wayno

On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.


Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on"

As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the
latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the
fly fishing fad in the years after it came out ... I expected to be
itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't


UM, a bit more....

I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even
close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted
their lives, from that "romance" I don't dispute the accuracy of
a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the
reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry
rods in hand. That story could have been set anywhere, ime, and
been equally accurate

.... and depressing because of that accuracy.

On Dec 18, 11:20*am, Larry L wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.

Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on"

As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the
latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the
fly fishing fad in the years after it came out *... I expected to be
itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't

UM, a bit more....

I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even
close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted
their lives, *from that "romance" * * I don't dispute the accuracy of
a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the
reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry
rods in hand. * * *That story could have been set anywhere, ime, *and
been equally accurate

... and depressing because of that accuracy.

Well probably so Larry. Maybe told my part a little romantically but
not much. I wasn't going up miles of mountain road snow/student car
for drunken an drugging; I was going up there to work weekends. The
tourons drank for fun. Locals had their own reasons. Its sometimes
easy to miss community when its hard to see beyond the pathologies.

OK enough heavy ****. Montana isn't for everyone, thank God. Ever been
to Butte?

Dave :+))

On Dec 18, 9:40*pm, DaveS wrote:


Ever been
to Butte?

Dave :+))


Yeah ... Jared Diamond starts his book "Collapse" with a chapter on
that area. You can't **** with Mother Nature for short term gains
without paying a long term heavy price.

On Dec 18, 1:20*pm, Larry L wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:27*pm, DaveS wrote:

. Did
the Lolo stuff put you off? Yeah there were scary people like that.

Nothing really "put me off" ..... and nothing "turned me on"

As a lover of both fly fishing and the Mountain West, I expected the
latter .... given, as I said, the movies reputation for "causing" the
fly fishing fad in the years after it came out *... I expected to be
itching to go fishing in Montana after watching it ... I wasn't

UM, a bit more....

I don't look back on my own drunken, drugging, days as anything even
close to "romantic" ... I know too many that died, or otherwise wasted
their lives, *from that "romance" * * I don't dispute the accuracy of
a story basically about such waste and death, I just don't see the
reported appeal that would bring the masses charging to Montana, fry
rods in hand. * * *That story could have been set anywhere, ime, *and
been equally accurate

... and depressing because of that accuracy.

Maybe accuracy wasn't the sum total of the author's intent......or the
film maker's.

g.
who dares to further suppose that it may not be the sum total of their
accomplishment either.

On Dec 17, 12:51*pm, Larry L wrote:

* I'd give the movie both thumbs down

Read the book. I enjoyed both, but a good book is always much better
than the movie made from it, even if the movie does it justice. Of
course neither was _about_ flyfishing, flyfishing and the rivers upon
which it was pursued were simply the cord that "ran through it".

Jon.

On Dec 18, 10:38*am, Jon wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:51*pm, Larry L wrote:

* I'd give the movie both thumbs down

Read the book. *I enjoyed both, but a good book is always much better
than the movie made from it, even if the movie does it justice. Of
course neither was _about_ flyfishing, flyfishing and the rivers upon
which it was pursued were simply the cord that "ran through it".

Jon.

McGuffin

cheers

oz