Fly Fishing As The Humane Way To Fish

On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:02:48 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:

are you saying there was there a connection between the power bait and the
fish deaths?

The only connection is that trout may be more likely to swallow
Powerbait and get deep hooked. As soon as a trout gets a fly in its
mouth it generally realizes it isn't food tries to spit it out.
--
Charlie...

Mike Connor wrote:

[snip of extremely interesting discussion of homemade hooks]

For tempering, one needs a small steel plate. First the hooks are hardened,
by heating to cherry red, and dropping into ice water. The hooks are then
placed in a container of sand, and shaken until bright. The metal plate is
heated, the hooks placed on the plate, and carefully watched for the temper
colour changes. The colour changes of the steel are caused by oxidation on
the metal surface, and are extremely temperature specific. When the
required temperature is achieved, the hooks are tipped off the plate
immediately into ice water.

If the temper is OK, then that was that. If not, simply repeat until the
temper is OK. Once the temper is OK, then once again shake the hooks in
sand ( Carborundum grit, etc etc) to clean off any scale etc.

The temper colours vary somewhat depending on the steel used. High carbon
steel is required. The stuff used for pins and needles is perfect. Some
wires may not be.

What basic colors are you looking for with hooks? I know among the
woodworking community there is quite a bit of discussion (argument,
really) about which types of tool steel are best for plane irons and
such, and how they should be tempered. In woodworking edge-tools, we
are looking for the balance between hardness and brittleness, and
depending on the type of steel and the application, you might aim for a
brown yellow (plane iron) to a blue (sawblade or scraper).

So what have you found to be the optimal range for hooks?


Chuck Vance

wrote...
Having trouble with my newsreader again, and so I will reply to another
thread here.

I'm just happy to have stumbled onto it.

I do have some pictures of homemade hooks somewhere, probably on the same
disc as the hook making articles. If there is sufficient interest, I can
try and get them put up on a site somewhere.

I'm interested.

For first attempts, no complicated gear is required. Merely a box of
"straight pins" ( sewing shop), or a box of needles, ( which are extremely
cheap), a pair of fine round needle nosed pliers ( The type used by
telephone technicians etc to bend wire into loops), a pair of fine flat
needle nosed pliers,and a small blow lamp. One of the "camping Gaz" type is
very good.
snipped a bunch to save space

Thanks for the info, Mike. I think I may have a new hobby in the
making.... ;-) I saved the contents of your post and made a back up
copy for future reference.
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt on either yahoo or earthlink to respond via email)

"Conan the Librarian" wrote in message
...
SNIP
What basic colors are you looking for with hooks? I know among the
woodworking community there is quite a bit of discussion (argument,
really) about which types of tool steel are best for plane irons and
such, and how they should be tempered. In woodworking edge-tools, we
are looking for the balance between hardness and brittleness, and
depending on the type of steel and the application, you might aim for a
brown yellow (plane iron) to a blue (sawblade or scraper).

So what have you found to be the optimal range for hooks?


Chuck Vance

Depends on the steel used. From light straw to blue. Much the same as for
many tools. The simplest thing is to try a few, it does not take long.
"Case hardening", will improve many wires. This can be done on a charcoal
block, or by placing the hooks in charcoal powder, ( or similar) and heating
to red heat.

For the needles I have used I aim mainly for dark straw, and test from
there.

One may temper as many times as one wishes, so it is not really a problem,
except with very fine wires. Hooks below about a size 16 are not really
worth the bother either.

TL
MC

Charlie Choc wrote in message ...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:02:48 -0400, "snakefiddler"
wrote:



As soon as a trout gets a fly in its
mouth it generally realizes it isn't food tries to spit it out.


And they sometimes do this so damned fast!

On Wed, 26 May 2004 18:54:04 -0400, (tmon) wrote:

I had the opportunity this past weekend to get away to the White
Mountains of NH for my gf's family reunion. We were staying at a resort
with a small private pond that is loaded with rainbows 12-16'' and
better.

The resort gives away barbless hooks and very few people bothered to
use them. Powerbait was the bait of choice and sadly I saw so many dead
fish along the shore it turned my stomach. Even the adults who were
fishing with kids seemed to have no concern as to whether the fish were
released safely or not.

I'm glad I decided to start fly fishing.


Well my take on this episode is this:
To the vast majority of people who fished the resort's pond the fish
were just another "attraction", something the resort provided for
their benefit and amusement, paid for by the guests own money. So the
fish are removed in their minds as having the status of functioning
members of an ecosystem and instead are demoted to the role of
play"things". Objectivization, pure and simple. Whether fish, women,
ecosystems or entire planets, the fate of all "objects" is to use them
until they no longer amuse us and then toss them away. Your concern
for the well being of the fish would probably be met by a lack of
understanding on the part of many of the guests. Either that or you
would be seen as a party pooper type.



g.c.


Still wondering where we're going to find another planet.

"George Cleveland" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 May 2004 18:54:04 -0400, (tmon) wrote:

I had the opportunity this past weekend to get away to the White
Mountains of NH for my gf's family reunion. We were staying at a resort
with a small private pond that is loaded with rainbows 12-16'' and
better.

The resort gives away barbless hooks and very few people bothered to
use them. Powerbait was the bait of choice and sadly I saw so many dead
fish along the shore it turned my stomach. Even the adults who were
fishing with kids seemed to have no concern as to whether the fish were
released safely or not.

I'm glad I decided to start fly fishing.


Well my take on this episode is this:
To the vast majority of people who fished the resort's pond the fish
were just another "attraction", something the resort provided for
their benefit and amusement, paid for by the guests own money. So the
fish are removed in their minds as having the status of functioning
members of an ecosystem and instead are demoted to the role of
play"things". Objectivization, pure and simple. Whether fish, women,
ecosystems or entire planets, the fate of all "objects" is to use them
until they no longer amuse us and then toss them away. Your concern
for the well being of the fish would probably be met by a lack of
understanding on the part of many of the guests.

Most excellent analysis.....as always. And as you know, of course, broaden
the base a bit and you've got PETA's case in a nutshell. Tough one to
crack, wot?

Either that or you
would be seen as a party pooper type.

Speaking of which, it looks like we'll be attending seperate soirees in a
couple of weeks. While I haven't spoken to him lately, I'm sure that Joel
is still planning to rip some lips in that highly confidential smallmouth
paradise not so very far from you that I've been promising to take you to.
As he has promised to take a friend (?!) with him, I suspect his plans are
not amenable to change. For good or ill, I'll be joining
them......um.....just so they don't get lost.


g.c.


Still wondering where we're going to find another planet.

How many ya need, kid?

Wolfgang
checking his pockets.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:21:59 -0500, "Wolfgang"
wrote:

Either that or you
would be seen as a party pooper type.

Speaking of which, it looks like we'll be attending seperate soirees in a
couple of weeks. While I haven't spoken to him lately, I'm sure that Joel
is still planning to rip some lips in that highly confidential smallmouth
paradise not so very far from you that I've been promising to take you to.
As he has promised to take a friend (?!) with him, I suspect his plans are
not amenable to change. For good or ill, I'll be joining
them......um.....just so they don't get lost.

Well, good luck to ya then. Of course one could fish the Secret Spot
(tm) for a day and then zip the mere 150 miles west over to the
Trimbelle campground and toast ones shins by the fire.

Again, good luck. And listen for the sirens!!!



g.c.








g.c.


Still wondering where we're going to find another planet.

How many ya need, kid?

Wolfgang
checking his pockets.

Mike Connor wrote:

"Conan the Librarian" wrote in message
...

So what have you found to be the optimal range for hooks?

Depends on the steel used. From light straw to blue. Much the same as for
many tools. The simplest thing is to try a few, it does not take long.
"Case hardening", will improve many wires. This can be done on a charcoal
block, or by placing the hooks in charcoal powder, ( or similar) and heating
to red heat.

For the needles I have used I aim mainly for dark straw, and test from
there.

One may temper as many times as one wishes, so it is not really a problem,
except with very fine wires. Hooks below about a size 16 are not really
worth the bother either.

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that you could temper
multiple times without making the hooks too brittle. (If I'm not
mistaken, that is an issue with tool steel.)

When you say you "test from there", do you mean you simply take them
astream, or do you have some other way of testing them?

Anyhow, thanks for the detailed description and the followup. I
love the DIY approach to these sorts of things, so it looks like I may
be entering a new aspect of this hobby.


Chuck Vance

"Conan the Librarian" wrote in message
...
Mike Connor wrote:

SNIP
..)

When you say you "test from there", do you mean you simply take them
astream, or do you have some other way of testing them?

Anyhow, thanks for the detailed description and the followup. I
love the DIY approach to these sorts of things, so it looks like I may
be entering a new aspect of this hobby.


Chuck Vance


You must of course de-temper ( anneal) before retempering, as some steels
will indeed go very brittle otherwise. One should try at least one or two
of the raw hooks from each batch one makes. If you "case harden" wire using
the charcoal or powdered carbon methods, you must be careful not to overdo
it. I usually try a few samples to see how it turns out. This works very
well with some wires, and not too well with others. This of course is
dependent on the amount of carbon in the steel already. Without an extensive
metallurgy lab, there is no way to test this except by trial and error.

Many hookmakers in the past tempered their hooks to purple. Some older
hooks, which tend to be soft, where tempered blue. There were only a few of
the older hookmakers who knew the secret of making good high carbon steel.
This also caused problems. Nowadays this is not a problem.

After you have tested a few hooks, you will simply "know" if they are OK.
Just fix them in a fly-vice and pluck them, ( I do the same test on
manufactured hooks anyway). It is easy to see and hear whether you got it
right. Once you know the temper colour for that particular material (
Stainless steel is different!), then the rest is easy. Harden, and then
temper.

If you want to play about with this, then just buy some cheap hooks,
detemper them, and then re-harden and temper. Quite a few salmon fly
dressers buy cheaper salmon hooks, and re-shape and temper them, in order to
obtain exactly what they want, although the temper here is not critical, as
these hooks are not used for fishing, merely for dressing show flies.

Really, the whole thing is quite easy. After doing a few, you just know how
it goes. The most difficult operations are barbing, and forming the eye
consistently. The rest is really just routine. With a little practice, even
these operations are quite easy.

TL
MC