Road to Nowhere on NPR

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Willi wrote:

Ken Fortenberry wrote:


There's no reason to worry about development along the road.
The road would be entirely within the boundaries of the Park.
And I think the environmental concerns are overstated as well.
The road through the Lamar Valley in Yellowstone handles a lot
of traffic year round and the elk, bison, wolves, coyotes,
birds and fish don't appear to be any worse for the wear. Then
too 95% of all tourists never get more than a quarter mile from
their vehicles which limits the damage from the teeming hordes.


I can't believe this came from you! Just what we need, more roads
through our National Parks.


Not roads, road, singular. A road the federal government
promised, and started, to build.

I'm not going to lobby for it or anything, I'm just saying
I can see both sides of this issue and the Park Service
does have experience with roads through fragile places,
like the Lamar Valley for instance.


....and they have experience with building the roads in gsmnp around
fontana as well...all bad. the anakeesta formation rocks, when water
interacts, leech sulfuric acid. there is nothing that effectively
neutralizes the acid in the nc watersheds...not much limestone in that
area. anakeesta is thought to be common on the north shore side of
fontana and the park. according to a recent article about the issue, in
1963, the entire fish population in the upper section of beech flats
branch at a crest of the mountains was killed because of the acid leech
caused by the road construction of newfound gap road. there are still no
fish in that stream to this day within a mile of that crest road area,
and measurements show an increase in stream acidity after heavy rains.

i know **** about anakeesta in yellowstone or the lamar valley roads,
but i've lived long enough to see what roads have done to our nc
mountain streams and forest lands - none of it has been good for the
streams, the wildlife, the natural setting or experience, or those who
care about such things. given the bush admin take on forestry
practices, some are even worried about logging and commercial ventures
affiliated with such construction.

the graham county i grew up discovering will probably have a 4-lane road
through it in the next decade; big snowbird backcountry road has been
paved on the lower section and is developing in a bizarre, but rapid
manner. cherohala has brought an overabundance of tourists. you recall
how hooper bald looked at the top section when we hiked down looking for
snowbird? it was tromped down pretty hard up there even then because of
the tourist access and milling about. it's worse now. wolfgang was
"right on" with his description of adverse effects from the little i've
seen in my experience in nc. it can be found along the blue ridge
parkway as well, around the government-built and park-sponsored stations.

the north shore road is a malignant, destructive idea...it's contrary to
the mission ideals of the park service and the park. pay the 52 million,
and it's a bargain at 4 times that price for everyone. though i firmly
and compulsively believe in keeping promises, the locals have agreed to
accept this payment as compensation for the breach, so the promise issue
is moot and satisfied. the few folks visiting the cemeteries have
access as and when they want it...they are driven or delivered to points
nearer most of the cemeteries than the proposed road would provide. the
service has pontoon, landing boats, jeeps, suburbans, and buses to
transport folks on the forest road systems, some of which are very wide
and easy walking (hazel, noland).

jeff

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:Vz1Kf.5843$Tf3.5803@dukeread09...

...and they have experience with building the roads in gsmnp around
fontana as well...all bad.

much snippage...

jeff

I heard on NPR the other day that the US Forestry Service is looking into
selling off parts of the Pisgah to raise money for the gov'ment? Anyone
else hear anything about this nonsense?

Op

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:Vz1Kf.5843$Tf3.5803@dukeread09...
//snip//

the north shore road is a malignant, destructive idea...it's contrary to
the mission ideals of the park service and the park. pay the 52 million,
and it's a bargain at 4 times that price for everyone. though i firmly
//snip//
jeff

What Jeff said . . .

There are significant copper deposits, and perhaps also gold, along the
southern edge of the park. No need to make it any easier for them to be
developed.

Also, why build a paved two-lane highway into the Proctor cemetery? A hell
of an elaborate road if transporting people to the cemetery is the only
purpose.

--
Bob Patton
(change bgzqsdq to charter to reply)
..

John Hightower wrote:

"JohnR" wrote in message
k.net...

While I do have empathy for the desire of those who want to visit their
old
home place or the cemetary where their relatives are buried, building a
road
across 34 miles of shoreline at the cost of $600,000,000 isn't the answer.

And finally, the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, like all National
Parks, belong to ALL Americans and decisions about the Park should be made
on a national basis. To give a small but vocal minority in a county of
10,000 the power to decide for all Americans is ludicrous.

John in WNC


Firstly, I'm totally ignorant of the "road to nowhere" and the GSMNP, and I
have no earthly idea of the damage a road or road building could do to the
area. But, after reading all of the posts made on the subject, the thing I
wonder about is the initial formation of the GSMNP. If the lands were
taken/eminent domained/whatever from the folks of the area, albeit a bunch
of years ago, then didn't the big guvment of the time just tramp all over
the residents of the area- and don't we all owe them what was originally
promised, in fact shouldn't the guvment be forced by a court of law to
comply with the original terms of the creation of the park? I understand
that it is a National Park that belongs to "ALL Americans", but it belonged
to a pretty specific set of residents before it was a park, and it sounds to
me like it wasn't exactly a voluntary kind of thing for the residents of the
area that were displaced. Did they adequate (whatever that is)
representation? compensation? Or maybe it's ok to just let it slide after a
few decades when everyone dies/forgets the whole damn thing? Trust us we
know what's good for you.

jh



hell john...when did you move to northern idaho? g one story has it
that the gsmnp was established through voluntary sales and a
condemnation...it was bought from landowners willing to sell, and
condemned by eminent domain with "just and fair market compensation"
determinations as to those unwilling. here's a brief explanation:

"Park support came slowly. Debates raged over who would buy the land and
whether the Smokies should become a National Forest or National Park.
Many local politicians in both North Carolina and Tennessee supported
the Park because they never thought it could happen. Much of the support
surrounded the construction of an improved road between Knoxville and
Asheville, not the Park itself. After a long and difficult struggle, the
concept of a park in the Smoky Mountains became a reality. Colonel David
Chapman was the leading figure supporting the future National Park.

National politics were as difficult as local resistance. The Smokies
beat out more than 60 other proposed sites. The Federal government
provided no money for land acquisition. It was not until 1926 that
Congress authorized a Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

Park Commissions then raised the funds needed to buy the thousands of
tracts of land that would compose the new National Park. Through
donations ranging from pennies from school children to thousands of
dollars from large benefactors, the park movement raised almost $2.5
million in pledges. Another $2.5 million came directly from North
Carolina and Tennessee.

With the Great Depression, land values soared and pledges became
difficult to collect. More money was needed. Desperate, the Park
Commission almost appealed to Congress for additional funds. Relief came
as the Rockefeller family donated $5 million to complete the Park. The
memorial at Newfound Gap stands in honor of this great act. In 1933 the
United States Government supplied another $1.55 million to complete land
purchases.

Land was difficult to buy despite the park movement. Greed, private
property rights, and personal glory often clashed with government
condemnation and the park movement. After buying about half the land, it
was deeded to the Federal Government. Congress established the Great
Smoky Mountains National Park on June 15, 1934, and turned its
stewardship to the National Park Service. Land acquisition continued and
on September 2, 1940, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt officially
dedicated the park. " http://www.nps.gov/grsm/gsmsite/welcome.html#pc

here's another similar description:

"...In May, 1926, a bill was signed by President Calvin Coolidge that
provided for the establishment of Great Smoky Mountains National Park
and Shenandoah National Park. This allowed the Department of the
Interior to assume responsibility for administration and protection of a
park in the Smokies as soon as 150,000 acres of land had been purchased.
Since the government was not allowed to buy land for national park use,
the former political boosters had to become fund raisers.

In the late 1920s, the Legislatures of Tennessee and North Carolina
appropriated $2 million each for land purchases. Additional money was
raised by individuals, private groups, and even school children who
pledged their pennies. By 1928, a total of $5 million had been raised.
Trouble was, the cost of the land had now doubled, so the campaign
ground to a halt. The day was saved when the Laura Spellman Rockefeller
Memorial Fund donated $5 million, assuring the purchase of the remaining
land.

But buying the land was difficult, even with the money in hand. There
were 6,000 small farms, large tracts, and other miscellaneous parcels
that had to be surveyed, appraised, dickered over, and sometimes
condemned in court. The timber and paper companies had valuable
equipment and standing inventory which required compensation.

Worse, in some ways, were the emotional losses to people who had to walk
away from their homes. A later survey of the displaced people showed
that about half took the money and ran and were glad to have it; while
the other half expressed feelings from mild inconvenience to outright
hostility. Some people were allowed to stay under lifetime leases,
particularly if they were too old or too sick to move. Younger ones were
granted leases on a short-term basis, if they wanted to try to stick it
out. However, they could not cut timber, hunt and trap at will, or
otherwise live as they always had.

The first Superintendent of the new park arrived in 1931, Major J. Ross
Eakin. By 1934, the states of Tennessee and North Carolina had
transferred deeds for 300,000 acres to the federal government. Congress
thus authorized full development of public facilities.

Much of the early development of facilities and restoration of early
settlers' buildings was done by the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC),
an agency created during the Depression to provide work and wages for
unemployed young men. The CCC worked from 1933 to 1942 when World War II
finally shut the program down. Many of the trails, campgrounds, and the
beautiful stone bridges and buildings are examples of their work.

The final touch in the creation of the Park was its formal dedication by
President Franklin Roosevelt in September, 1940. He stood on and spoke
from the Rockefeller Monument at Newfound Gap astride the Tennessee -
North Carolina state line. That ceremony dedicated a sanctuary that is
not a local park, a county park, or even a state park, but a national
park for all the people of the country and the rest of the world to
enjoy." http://www.gatlinburg.com/national-park/



anyway, it's now public land, has been for a long time, and is a
national park unique in a lot of ways. the park, over a half-million
acres, is an International Biosphere Reserve and a World Heritage Site.
its reported to be the most visited national park in the u.s.
(mercifully, most of that is on the tennessee side, and the area we are
talking about is only slightly tromped on in comparison). you should
come visit. it's not yellowstone, but it's still a mighty grand and
special place. the road issue is a no brainer imo. those offended, by
and through their representatives, have agreed to accept 52 million in
reparations, and the cemetery access remains as is. the alternative of
600 million for a destructive road is simply ridiculous.

"John Hightower" wrote in message
...

Firstly, I'm totally ignorant of the "road to nowhere" and the GSMNP, and
I have no earthly idea of the damage a road or road building could do to
the area. But, after reading all of the posts made on the subject, the
thing I wonder about is the initial formation of the GSMNP. If the lands
were taken/eminent domained/whatever from the folks of the area, albeit a
bunch of years ago, then didn't the big guvment of the time just tramp all
over the residents of the area- and don't we all owe them what was
originally promised, in fact shouldn't the guvment be forced by a court of
law to comply with the original terms of the creation of the park? I
understand that it is a National Park that belongs to "ALL Americans", but
it belonged to a pretty specific set of residents before it was a park,
and it sounds to me like it wasn't exactly a voluntary kind of thing for
the residents of the area that were displaced. Did they adequate
(whatever that is) representation? compensation? Or maybe it's ok to just
let it slide after a few decades when everyone dies/forgets the whole damn
thing? Trust us we know what's good for you.

jh

Hightower.....Hightower......hm......

What kinda name is that?

Wolfgang
to whom it sounds english.

when you decide to come this way, let us know and we'll give you a most
excellent tour... and, i look forward to seeing you in July. You've got
to meet Roger. In addition to being a good sport, he's the best
flycaster i've ever seen. someone needs to bring cards and poker chips
too, as Roger will undoubtedly have some coin to leave with the crowd
g. should be another fun time with Makela in tow also...and, of
course, i hope wayno, pj, dan'l, bruiser, steve, warren, willi, choc,
snoop, charles, mark t., and my fine friend indian joe (and all the
other cast of "usuals") decide to show up as well. it's always a great
time out there...

jeff

John Hightower wrote:
"Jeff Miller"

thanks for the explanation Jeff, I do hope to get there one day. Looking
forward to July. Hopefully I don't have to be PC and go to another joint
camping trip with my wife's sister family.

jh

John Hightower wrote:

Firstly, I'm totally ignorant of the "road to nowhere" and the GSMNP,
and I have no earthly idea of the damage a road or road building
could do to the area. But, after reading all of the posts made on
the subject, the thing I wonder about is the initial formation of the
GSMNP. If the lands were taken/eminent domained/whatever from the
folks of the area, albeit a bunch of years ago, then didn't the big
guvment of the time just tramp all over the residents of the area-
and don't we all owe them what was originally promised, in fact
shouldn't the guvment be forced by a court of law to comply with the
original terms of the creation of the park? I understand that it is a
National Park that belongs to "ALL Americans", but it belonged to a
pretty specific set of residents before it was a park, and it sounds
to me like it wasn't exactly a voluntary kind of thing for the
residents of the area that were displaced. Did they adequate
(whatever that is) representation? compensation? Or maybe it's ok to
just let it slide after a few decades when everyone dies/forgets the
whole damn thing? Trust us we know what's good for you.

John, there is an article in today's Times that gives a
pretty good "in a nutshell" account of the controversy.
One thing I didn't know is that Charles Taylor is the
chairman of the House appropriations subcommittee that
controls the National Park Service budget. That would
explain the Park Service's neutral stance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/na...1parkroad.html

--
Ken Fortenberry

"John Hightower" wrote in message
...

"JohnR" wrote in message
k.net...
While I do have empathy for the desire of those who want to visit their
old
home place or the cemetary where their relatives are buried, building a
road
across 34 miles of shoreline at the cost of $600,000,000 isn't the
answer.

And finally, the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, like all National
Parks, belong to ALL Americans and decisions about the Park should be
made
on a national basis. To give a small but vocal minority in a county of
10,000 the power to decide for all Americans is ludicrous.

John in WNC

Firstly, I'm totally ignorant of the "road to nowhere" and the GSMNP, and
I
have no earthly idea of the damage a road or road building could do to the
area. But, after reading all of the posts made on the subject, the thing
I
wonder about is the initial formation of the GSMNP. If the lands were
taken/eminent domained/whatever from the folks of the area, albeit a bunch
of years ago, then didn't the big guvment of the time just tramp all over
the residents of the area- and don't we all owe them what was originally
promised, in fact shouldn't the guvment be forced by a court of law to
comply with the original terms of the creation of the park? I understand
that it is a National Park that belongs to "ALL Americans", but it
belonged
to a pretty specific set of residents before it was a park, and it sounds
to
me like it wasn't exactly a voluntary kind of thing for the residents of
the
area that were displaced. Did they adequate (whatever that is)
representation? compensation? Or maybe it's ok to just let it slide after
a
few decades when everyone dies/forgets the whole damn thing? Trust us we
know what's good for you.

jh


Hello John
One thing to also take into consideration is just what was the quality of
land and the situation on the ground when it was taken and paid for by the
taxpayers of the rest of the country to mitigate what by most accounts was
an environmental and social disaster.

In many areas in the East of what became the GSMP, George Washington NF,
later the TVA lands, and other smaller projects, incredible levels of
environmental devastation had taken place. People in many of these places
were reduced to near-starvation levels. The erosion from some of these areas
is hard for us in modern times to understand. For example, an entire harbor
and navigable river near Prince William Forest park was silted in. Most of
the rivers coming out of these areas held little life. And the effects of
this highland environmental and social disaster spread down into the
piedmont. The dust bowl of the Southern Plains is still a part of our
cultural memory, but we tend to think of cute cabins and fiddle music,
instead of the environmental, economic and social collapse that
characterized much of the Eastern Mountains when the above projects were
undertaken.

Also important to remember is that thousands of these people were not only
paid money for their despoiled properties, but were transported West and
given first priority for homesteading re-settlement in the big dam building
and reclamation projects in the Columbia Basin of Washington, in the Salt
River and other Arizona irrigation projects, and in the Oregon and
California projects. Others used the lifeline the Federal buyout money
provided to relocate to other places in the West, which is why to this day
Im told its possible to get authentic North Carolina moonshine from some
fellas near the logging town of Darrington here in Washington State. :-)

Dave

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...
//snip//

The area around Hazel, Eagle, and Forney creeks was not part of the original
park, which Jeff described so well in his earlier posting. The northern bank
of the Little Tennessee river was not as despoiled as some other places
(think Copper Hill TN), but the area had been very heavily logged. The
Ritter Lumber Company, having exhausted the takeable timber, moved out in
1928, and by the time of World War II the residents were pretty much reduced
to subsistence farming.

Alcoa began construction of Fontana dam in 1942, but the need for war
production led to Fontana's takeover by the TVA and the War Production Board
to accelerate power production for Alcoa's aluminum plants (and probably for
other power-hungry production for the Manhattan Project at nearby Oak
Ridge). War production needs also led to the re-opening of the Westfeldt
copper mine, and together with labor to construct Fontana there was full
employment at Proctor and nearby communities in the early '40s.

The land on the north shore of the lake was constrained by the GSMNP on the
north and by the lake on the south, so after the lake filled there would be
no road access. The TVA determined that it would buy that property, just as
Alcoa and TVA had earlier purchased many thousands of acres that are now
submerged. As anyone who has visited the area knows, there is little arable
land there, and it seems likely that in 1944 the values were low. I think
TVA offered something like $38 per acre. Nevertheless, the vast majority (I
think over 95%) of the landowners accepted the TVA offers. The land of those
who refused was condemned and taken. Much of the land was owned by large
landowners, including the North Carolina Exploration Company, a unit of
Cities Service Company, now known as either Citgo or Occidental Petroleum
(actually, Cities Service retained rights to much of the land there until
1983).

Incidentally, the cemeteries associated with several communities that would
be covered by the lake were relocated.

From the time the residents were removed until today there have been
numerous proposals for a road. But for some reason, the residents themselves
were seldom heard from until the 1970s. The displaced residents held their
first reunion in 1978 at Deep Creek Campground, and for several years their
organization tried to bring pressure on politicians to complete the road.

Today, it appears that much of the impetus for building the road comes from
construction outfits and real estate developers. It does appear that most of
the citizens of Swain County would prefer the cash settlement instead of the
road. But it is also likely that politicians would rather have campaign
contributions than the votes of the relatively few residents of Swain County
whose votes would matter. That's why it's so important for all of us who
value the natural environment of the area to speak out.


--
Bob Patton
(change bgzqsdq to charter to reply)
..