The Sandy Juan Worm -- what is the difference?

On Fri, 25 May 2007 00:56:07 GMT, S Penzes wrote:

sandy wrote:
Ok, here's the question: what is the significant difference,
between a San Juan Worm and a Sandy Juan Worm?

The context appears below the photo:

http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/...rms/index.html

I've been a long time lurker but I think I have something to contribute
to this thread. I would argue that fly fishing is defined by the rod
and flyline. These are definitely unique. Anything that you cast with
a fly rod/line constitutes flyfishing. I might add the style of reel
and how one manipulates the line when playing a fish also contributes to
the definition of "fly fishing". Conversely, hanging a "fly" of a
spherical red and white bobber which you "chuck" with a spin cast rig is
definitely NOT fly fishing. You might add to this by suggesting that
the thing on the end of the line has to be hand made by the fisherman
but in my mind, that's a weak and distant second argument.
Steve

Ok, hit some "flyfishing only" water tossing a Mepps spinner with your flyrod
and see if the Rangers don't get all excited about your definition of
flyfishing.

And tossing a bubble and fly with spinning gear is certainly flyfishing -
albeit in a rather primitive form - at least according to many state F&W
regulations.

imo, both your definitions are broken...

/daytripper

daytripper wrote:

Ok, hit some "flyfishing only" water tossing a Mepps spinner with your flyrod
and see if the Rangers don't get all excited about your definition of
flyfishing.

And tossing a bubble and fly with spinning gear is certainly flyfishing -
albeit in a rather primitive form - at least according to many state F&W
regulations.

/daytripper

Definitions are a problem in general. You mentioned "fly fishing only"
waters. Yellowstone Park has various waters designated that way.
So I stopped in, at the main ranger station in Mammoth Junction, and
said "what is fly fishing? How do I know if I'm not breaking the rules."

The ranger grinned. "We get that question a lot," he said. "After a
while we gave up trying to define it. 'Not bait' is how we define
it now."

daytripper wrote:

Ok, hit some "flyfishing only" water tossing a Mepps spinner with your flyrod
and see if the Rangers don't get all excited about your definition of
flyfishing.

One other thought:
I haven't been an active fishing guide since 1995.
But I did spend a lot of time working Montana's Paradise
Valley Spring Creeks. I was one of the few guides who
booked a day for himself once a year, so I could fish.
And I still book a day or two even now, each year.

When Bob Auger was the river keeper on the DePuy Stretch,
I was there fishing one stormy day in July. It was thundering,
blowing and raining on and off all day. Big streamers seldom
work well (at all) on the spring creeks, on sunny days.
But when it's stormy like that, you can catch some very
big fish that way.

I took it one step further and put on a home made, lightweight
flyrod wiggler. A crankbait, I guess you'd say. I plopped in
into the fast water below a road culvert. Wham. I nailed a
big brown about 21" long. There are fish at those culverts
a lot bigger than that. But that's what I hooked. A crowd
of 5-6 highbrows crowded around while I fought the fish.
When I netted it an pulled the wiggler out, an audible gasp
went around the crowd. Someone asked "is that legal?"

Bob said: "It's got feathers on it and Sandy made it. It's a fly
in my book."

sandy wrote:
daytripper wrote:

Ok, hit some "flyfishing only" water tossing a Mepps spinner with your
flyrod
and see if the Rangers don't get all excited about your definition of
flyfishing.

And tossing a bubble and fly with spinning gear is certainly flyfishing -
albeit in a rather primitive form - at least according to many state F&W
regulations.

/daytripper

Definitions are a problem in general. You mentioned "fly fishing only"
waters. Yellowstone Park has various waters designated that way.
So I stopped in, at the main ranger station in Mammoth Junction, and
said "what is fly fishing? How do I know if I'm not breaking the rules."

The ranger grinned. "We get that question a lot," he said. "After a
while we gave up trying to define it. 'Not bait' is how we define
it now."
I agree. In my part of the world (Alberta) the laws of fishing are
varied. Variations include "artificial lures only", maximum 2 hooks on
a line, and barbless hooks. The point is that the use of legality to
pursue something as vague as the definition of "fly fishing" is bound to
end with no satisfactory resolution. On the other hand, I think that it
is possible to arrive at a basic list of characteristics that contribute
to the sentimental definition of the sport. Another aspect of my
personal definition is based on what kind of fisherman I see when I'm
standing on the shore of a lake/stream/river. I can see the elegance of
a well cast flyline from the guy beside me who is up to his waist in the
water. I can see that he's focused on his retrieve technique. I can
see that he strips the line in when he's playing a fish. I can see him
deliberate over what he should tie on after he's looked for bugs in both
the water and air. What I can't see is what's on the end of his line.
On the other side of me I see a guy with a 5' spinning rod throwing
something heavy a long distance with some underhand cast. I can see
that his only retrieve is a constant retrieval by cranking some handle.
I can see that he sits down on his stool to have a beer between casts.
I can see that he casts the same thing over and over and over. I
don't care what's on the end of his line.
You tell me, which guy is flyfishing?
Steve
BTW I just thought to add this question, how have your shoreside
conversations gone with fellow flyfisherman versus the other kind of
guy? You share flies, you discuss how you made them, you discuss local
hatches, you discuss water and river structure, etc versus "where dya
get those worms?"

S Penzes wrote:
a spin fisherman
..........I can see that he sits down on his stool to have a beer between casts.
I can see that he casts the same thing over and over and over. I don't
care what's on the end of his line.

BTW I just thought to add this question, how have your shoreside
conversations gone with fellow flyfisherman versus the other kind of
guy? You share flies, you discuss how you made them, you discuss local
hatches, you discuss water and river structure, etc versus "where dya
get those worms?"

There may well be a larger proportion of fly fishermen who study
hard and ponder their next move more frequently. Nothing is universal.
One of the most knowledgeable fishermen I've known is a Bozeman, MT area
legend, still, among those who know him.

Vern is a well-educated and now retired logger (now too old to fish) who
fly fished for white fish in winter, and caught trout any way he could
the rest of the year. Vern knew the river like no one else. Weather
conditions, river flows and time of year meant different things on
different days. And no one caught more giant brown trout than Vern:
sometimes on the fly, sometimes hardware sand sometimes bait. Star
performers can happen in any category.