OT FYI

"daytripper" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:25:58 -0600, "Wolfgang" wrote:


"JT" wrote in message
.. .

"Mike" wrote in message
...

Since that time, I have owned a few keyboards myself. I prefer the
Microsoft curved ergonomic keyboards. I have a white one of these
which I bought when they first came out. I have washed it about a
dozen times to date, with no ill effects. It always looks and works
like new when it dries.

I work for the company that manufactured your Microsoft Natural
keyboard.
Before we became an EMS company, our service department had 4
dishwahsers
running full time washing keyboards.

JT

Did you use distilled water? deionized? softened? straight from the tap?

The dissolved mineral content in tap water is high enough in many places
that substantial deposits are left on drying. I know virtually nothing
about how keyboards are constructed, but I suspect there is a good chance
that a "printed" circuit board or some other structure with very closely
spaced electronic components is somewhere in there.

Wolfgang

fwiw: There's actually very little active logic in the typical keyboard,
usually an 8048-derived keyboard controller (that senses the key presses
and
generates the scan code to be sent to the system) with a couple of
supporting
devices, typically not fine-pitch devices, and all usually hermetically
sealed. Better keyboards also stick a diode at each switch location in the
switch matrix, but these are usually spread out across the pcb. All in
all,
about the lowest-component density design you'll see in modern times.

And there are all kinds of keyboard switch designs, but the one most often
used in the typical low-cost keyboard employ high-carbon-content "button
bottoms" making contact with contact lands printed and plated on the pcb.
The
patterns used are typically quite large and provide redundancy (like three
sets of interlaced fingers per each switch location).

Thanks, Tripper. Looks like you'd probably have to use seawater to cause
any real problems.

Wolfgang

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Wolfgang wrote:
"JT" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...


Since that time, I have owned a few keyboards myself. I prefer the

Microsoft curved ergonomic keyboards. I have a white one of these
which I bought when they first came out. I have washed it about a
dozen times to date, with no ill effects. It always looks and works
like new when it dries.

I work for the company that manufactured your Microsoft Natural keyboard.
Before we became an EMS company, our service department had 4 dishwahsers
running full time washing keyboards.

JT


Did you use distilled water? deionized? softened? straight from the
tap?

The dissolved mineral content in tap water is high enough in many places
that substantial deposits are left on drying. I know virtually nothing
about how keyboards are constructed,

Which, as usual, doesn't stop you from holding forth.

And why should it?

but I suspect there is a good chance that a "printed" circuit board or
some other structure with very closely spaced electronic components is
somewhere in there.

Wolfgang

You obviously have no clue about printed circuit boards.

Sorta makes you wonder why I pled igorance and asked a question, ainna?

Their construction and cleaning requires a strong acid bath and rinsing
with water.

And would that be imported water from the Dead Sea? Or would the domestic
Great Salt Lake variety suffice?

A printed circuit board would probably be the toughest component in the
keyboard.

Tougher than the steel screws? Well, I be go ta hell!

You are SO much fun.

That's because you don't learn.

Wolfgang
who understands as well as the next guy that some people just like
pain......but still has a hard time figuring out why.

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"JT" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...

Since that time, I have owned a few keyboards myself. I prefer the
Microsoft curved ergonomic keyboards. I have a white one of these
which I bought when they first came out. I have washed it about a
dozen times to date, with no ill effects. It always looks and works
like new when it dries.

I work for the company that manufactured your Microsoft Natural keyboard.
Before we became an EMS company, our service department had 4 dishwahsers
running full time washing keyboards.

JT

Did you use distilled water? deionized? softened? straight from the tap?

The dissolved mineral content in tap water is high enough in many places
that substantial deposits are left on drying. I know virtually nothing
about how keyboards are constructed, but I suspect there is a good chance
that a "printed" circuit board or some other structure with very closely
spaced electronic components is somewhere in there.

Wolfgang

I didn't work in the service area, just went into the department to work on
computer issues. I did check with a guy that once worked in the service
department and he said there were no special water considerations run into
the dish washers. They pulled the keyboards apart and placed the enclosures
and PCB in a cart and ran it through a cycle. The keyboards looked virtually
new after washing and assembly.

We do very little in the way of keyboard manufacturing due to overseas
market, however, we still repair a few keyboards that were offered with a
lifetime warranty. After talking to the guy that once worked in the service
area, he said we still have one dishwasher setup that is used once in awhile
for people that want their original keyboard back, normally we just send out
a new keyboard. Keyboards are a $5 - $6.00 throw away item anymore. When I
started with the company in '84, the average price of a keyboard was in the
$85.00 range.

JT

On Dec 19, 10:33 am, "JT" wrote:
"Wolfgang" wrote in message

...





"JT" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...

Since that time, I have owned a few keyboards myself. I prefer the
Microsoft curved ergonomic keyboards. I have a white one of these
which I bought when they first came out. I have washed it about a
dozen times to date, with no ill effects. It always looks and works
like new when it dries.

I work for the company that manufactured your Microsoft Natural keyboard.
Before we became an EMS company, our service department had 4 dishwahsers
running full time washing keyboards.

JT

Did you use distilled water? deionized? softened? straight from the tap?

The dissolved mineral content in tap water is high enough in many places
that substantial deposits are left on drying. I know virtually nothing
about how keyboards are constructed, but I suspect there is a good chance
that a "printed" circuit board or some other structure with very closely
spaced electronic components is somewhere in there.

Wolfgang

I didn't work in the service area, just went into the department to work on
computer issues. I did check with a guy that once worked in the service
department and he said there were no special water considerations run into
the dish washers. They pulled the keyboards apart and placed the enclosures
and PCB in a cart and ran it through a cycle. The keyboards looked virtually
new after washing and assembly.

It's actually very common. All the geeks I know (lots) run their
keyboards through
the dishwasher and have for years. You don't realize just how dirty
keyboards get
until afterwards.
- Ken

"JT" wrote in message
...

I didn't work in the service area, just went into the department to work
on computer issues. I did check with a guy that once worked in the service
department and he said there were no special water considerations run into
the dish washers. They pulled the keyboards apart and placed the
enclosures and PCB in a cart and ran it through a cycle. The keyboards
looked virtually new after washing and assembly.

Would that more things were designed with such practical maintenance
considerations in mind. Um......not that I'm accsuing anyone of designing
them that way deliberately.

We do very little in the way of keyboard manufacturing due to overseas
market, however, we still repair a few keyboards that were offered with a
lifetime warranty. After talking to the guy that once worked in the
service area, he said we still have one dishwasher setup that is used once
in awhile for people that want their original keyboard back, normally we
just send out a new keyboard. Keyboards are a $5 - $6.00 throw away item
anymore. When I started with the company in '84, the average price of a
keyboard was in the $85.00 range.

Interesting that the price has come down so much; particularly when I
consider that I can't remember the last time that I or anyone I know had a
defective keyboard.

Thanks, JT.

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...


Interesting that the price has come down so much; particularly when I
consider that I can't remember the last time that I or anyone I know had a
defective keyboard.

Many years ago the company could see the hand writing on the wall, with
sharp declines revenue. We purchased the Honeywell Keyboard division that
had a Mexico manufacturing facility. With the Mexico presence, we were able
to compete, however with overseas pressure there was no way keyboards would
support a US based company much longer, ever though we were the worlds
largest at the time. We have since become a custom manufacturing company,
with two assembly facilities in Mexico and one in Shanghai. We also have a
small assembly facility in the US for government contracts that require
assembly in the US. Keyboards are now less that 1 percent of our annual
revenue.

I would agree, keyboards don't go out on regular basis. I would imagine the
majority are sold with new system purchases.

Thanks, JT.

You're welcome,
JT

"Wolfgang" wrote


Interesting that the price has come down so much; particularly when I
consider that I can't remember the last time that I or anyone I know had a
defective keyboard.



I've replaced several over the last few years nearly all victims of my
addiction to Diet-Coke. Had I only known I could have washed them !!


( Well maybe not the one on the laptop, it really, really, didn't like the
Diet-Coke bath either. )

All very interesting. I didn´t know that other people washed them, I
thought it was just my idea. At first it was really desperation, as
the cost of cleaning them was very high, and replacement was not
really an option. After a little investigation I came to the
conclusion that the components used were very robust, and as long as
no conducting fluid remained in or on the assembly, the chance of
damage was minimal. This indeed proved to be the case.

We just used ordinary warm tap water with washing up liquid, coupled
with a vigorous brushing, for cleaning and rinsing. Indeed, the first
few batches were washed in the personnel showers! There were some
mineral deposits on the boards etc after washing and drying, which I
also originally thought might cause problems, but as the circuit
boards themselves were sealed, and the components obviously more or
less impervious to water, this caused no problems.

Not too long ago, I heard that the company is still washing the old
keyboards. This is also because these old custom keyboards are now
much more expensive to replace.

Although it is true that the price for mass produced items of this
nature has dropped very considerably, the custom built boards still
cost a lot more.

Also perhaps of interest, the majority of damaged boards we had prior
to washing them, were a result of damage incurred when cleaning them,
usually damaged keys, as a result of trying to remove the key caps for
cleaning.

TL
MC

Mike wrote:

Not too long ago, I heard that the company is still washing the old
keyboards. This is also because these old custom keyboards are now
much more expensive to replace.

FYI, keyboards are SO yesterday. In less than five years they'll be seen
as quaint anachronisms.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Dec 20, 5:44 am, rw wrote:
Mike wrote:

Not too long ago, I heard that the company is still washing the old
keyboards. This is also because these old custom keyboards are now
much more expensive to replace.

FYI, keyboards are SO yesterday. In less than five years they'll be seen
as quaint anachronisms.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Although that is possible, I doubt it. Mechanical key type keyboards
may be replaced with something else like positional laser sensors or
similar, which are already available, and many people are also now
using various pen type and other input devices, but it will be a long
time before direct human input via direct electrical sensing of brain
impulses or similar is possible. Doubtless it will come, ( assuming
the human race survives long enough ), but I severely doubt that I
will live to see it. In the meantime, the keyboard as such is still
the most efficient human means of inputting data. This is independent
of whether mechanical keys or various sensors are used.

TL
MC