Wal-Mart

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:39:37 -0700, JR wrote:

wrote:

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV.

For the sake of this particular argument, let it mean anything from
"lower middle class" (and, yes, that can be relative across societies)
to "penniless."

Regardless of nit-picking definitions, I stand by my statement, slightly
rephrased, that I'd rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a poor
American sick in the U.S. I suspect I'd also rather be a poor German
sick in Germany than a poor American sick in the U.S., but I don't know
the medical system there--nor the economy--well enough to say with much
confidence.

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

The statement is based on experience. If you disagree, that's fine with me.

I don't agree or disagree because I haven't any basis to even form an
opinion on why _you_ would rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a
poor American sick in the US. Even if I had such information, your
preferences are yours and IMO, folks are perfectly entitled to their
preferences.

TC,
R

wrote:

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

Honestly, I'd have thought you both educated *and* smart enough to be
above falling back not just on "love it or leave it," but implying
something like "if there is *even one thing* about the U.S. that you
don't believe is the absolute best in the world, then leave it."

For one thing, I am not--at least for the moment, thank God--poor. For
another, there's more to life (and even to being an American) than
health care. Fly fishing in Italy, for example, though nice enough,
can't hold a candle......

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:11:13 -0700, JR wrote:

wrote:

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

Honestly, I'd have thought you both educated *and* smart enough to be
above falling back not just on "love it or leave it," but implying
something like "if there is *even one thing* about the U.S. that you
don't believe is the absolute best in the world, then leave it."

Well, see, there you are...I've have no idea how educated *or* smart you
are, but I allowed that you wouldn't immediately read something into the
question that wasn't there, even with a flat-out statement that it was a
serious question. Heck, I didn't presume that you were a US citizen. I
simply asked why you didn't obtain Italian citizenship.

For one thing, I am not--at least for the moment, thank God--poor. For
another, there's more to life (and even to being an American) than
health care. Fly fishing in Italy, for example, though nice enough,
can't hold a candle......

And, seemingly unintentionally, you've answered my question: because
there's more to life than healthcare (and actually, it'd be your cost of
it, not its quality), and given a choice as to where to live, Italy
wouldn't be (and, in fact, wasn't) that choice.

Life is about choices, and if Walmart were forced to pay union wages and
provide healthcare benefits such as, for example, GM was/is, it might be
in the same financial condition as GM, and a loaf of bread or tube socks
at Walmart would be 42.99USD (and the loaf of bread would only be 8
slices and have electrical problems, and the socks would only get 13 MPG
highway). The public, and not limited to the US public, has decided it
likes 69 cent large white loaves and tube socks, and thus, in the US,
that choice means, among other things, no healthcare for every employee.
It really isn't a matter of fair or unfair, simply the population
choosing where it wishes to allocate its capital.

You can attempt to "cafeteria plan" as to why this country or that is
better than another, but when the total picture is considered, the US is
still a pretty good place to call home.

TC,
R
....and I'm never surprised at the number of people who talk about how
much better it is somewhere else...where they don't choose to live...

wrote:
...and I'm never surprised at the number of people who talk about how
much better it is somewhere else...where they don't choose to live...

That really has nothing to do with it. I *did* choose to live in Italy.
Now I choose to live in the U.S. I may very well choose later to live
in Italy again or even (gasp) in France. Might I not believe the
cheeses in France are better than the cheeses in America without wanting
to become a French citizen?

No one said the U.S. wasn't "a pretty good place to call home." I
certainly didn't. Nor did I say I'd rather be an Italian than an
American, only that if I were poor and sick, I'd get better medical
treatment if I were an Italian in Italy than an American here. Has
nothing to do with wholesale denigration of America as a homeland.

EOT for me (unless you write something particularly interesting g).
I'm trying to prepare to go to Uganda for a little while. I'll let you
know if I find anything there nice enough to make me want to renounce my
U.S. citizenship.......

MajorOz wrote:

Where I grew up, there
never was such a thing. Medical bills were paid in cash or
installment. Where, outside Marxist enclaves, did medical care become
a right guaranteed by government?

I have tried to avoid answering to your posts for a variety of reasons
but oh well. Have you had to pay fur an unplanned major health event
lately? Because of the games hospitals have to play with the insurance
companies, in CA I've seen reports of hip fractures costing in excess
of 6 figures. Maybe you can write a check for that should you have that
happen but I sure the heck can;t. And I help run hospitals.

Never considered Western European and Canada countries to be Marxist
enclaves myself. But since I assume you meant the US, the current
thought is that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness includes
healthcare. What no one has come up with a method to pay for it. But
the Fed already pays for the elderly and the poor (medicaid), those
groups have a right to government paid health care in your tidy little
world.

"Wayne Knight" wrote in
oups.com:

ecause of the games hospitals have to play with the insurance
companies, in CA I've seen reports of hip fractures costing in excess
of 6 figures.

At those prices, why would anybody buy one?

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

"JR" wrote in message ...
wrote:

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV.

For the sake of this particular argument, let it mean anything from
"lower middle class" (and, yes, that can be relative across societies)
to "penniless."

Regardless of nit-picking definitions, I stand by my statement, slightly
rephrased, that I'd rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a poor
American sick in the U.S. I suspect I'd also rather be a poor German
sick in Germany than a poor American sick in the U.S., but I don't know
the medical system there--nor the economy--well enough to say with much
confidence.

The statement is based on experience. If you disagree, that's fine with
me.





I would rather be a sick destitute American than a destitute Italian.
Having used the Italian health system as a US citizen on vacation, I have
high regards for their health system. But the system is paid for with high
taxes. $3+ a gallon on fuel, and high tax rates. How many MRI machines per
capita? In the 1970's there were 7 in the San Francisco Bay area, there was
one in British Columbia. How long to wait for a major procedure? If you
are poor in America, you have excellent access to medical care. No
hospital will or can turn you away. The State and Federal government's
transfer your tax money to the providers to pay for the care. If you are
middle class, and have assets, then you can be in trouble. If no insurance,
the providers will take your assets if you can not pay. After the assets
are gone, then you join the first catagory and get the taxpayers to pay for
your care. And with more facilities available, then you are more likely as
a poor person to survive a dibilitating desease or injury here than in a lot
of other countries with socialized medical care. Is why Canadians with
money come to the USA for care. No 2-3 year wait for a knee replacement, or
a 9 month wait for an MRI. For the poor, we have socialized medicine.
MediCal in California, called something else in every other state.

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On 22 Apr 2006 14:19:38 -0700, "MajorOz"
wrote:


wrote:
...I'm still waiting to hear about y'all's favorite local
home-town cheap crap purveyors that Walmart put out of business...

Walmart hasn't, won't, and couldn't do many, if any, of the places with
which I regularly trade any harm, much less put them out of business...

That is true almost everywhere WM has located. In most cases, they
IMPROVE local options, by bringing in other stores -- kind of the
"anchor stor" concept in a shopping mall.
And, yes, the "mom-and-pop" stores are still there -- they are called
"7-11"
Virtually all the whining is done by union activists and the Amy
Goodman types.


When Walmart opened a store in my small town, I thought that would be
the end of the good hardware stores. Not so. The original three are
still open after many years of WM, and they will never be displaced by
them.



I run a little, and I mean LITTLE, tackle shop out of my garage. With a
little research I was able to find wholesalers that let me compete with
walmart on price. I order very sparingly to keep the kids in fishing gear.
Those customers who are really interested in good gear will come to the shop
and put in an order for nice cortland Rods and high end lines and reels.

Walmart isn't too far away and everyone knows thats where to get the good
price. The folks looking for quality and someone who has time to chat about
fishing and what to use will come to my shop. Even when I don't know what to
use, i usually know who caught what fish and where.. and have asked them
what they used. Walmart guys don't have time to talk about fishing for 20
minutes while they count out your worms, offer you coffee and show your kids
how to cast a line out.

Walmart isn't competition for me. I shop there regularly even. They have
cheap prices on yummy groceries, I bought a sweet laptop there... You just
can't really stop an associate and ask for an opinion or which product is
best... most honestly they don't know. They can point you to where the stuff
is, but not help you with your choice or offer advice. Not many can tell you
what the stripers were being caught on last week or how to oil/grease a
reel.

They do create a helluva lot of jobs. When you are down and out, they will
be hiring, and don't mind working around your availablility. I have never
worked there, but as a single dad, feel a bit of comfort knowing there is a
job for me there if I need one that will accept I am a parent and need to be
home when the bus pulls in.

How do you guys know there are so many welfare fat slobs there shopping
unless... you are there shopping with them? If it offends you to shop
there..... don't. Spend more money somewhere else and you will never see the
folks in the Walmart store again!.
Maybe the folks with less money are more concerned with product usefulness
instead of paying extra for the "privilage?" of buying the same things at
Target for 30% more.

I would personally rather buy a product for 30% less at walmart than shop
with upper middle housewives at target for the SAME thing. The housewives
might be a bit prettier... but they don't save me money.

Their clothing lines and what not aren't the best at walmart.. blah blah
blah... but when you need to get through a business casual interview those
$12.00 kahkis work just as well as the $40.00 ones.
90% of millionaires don't look like millionaires and many of them DO shop
walmart, Salvation army, goodwill, and bargain lots. Millionaires have all
that money because they don't spend it on status, and wasteful expenses.

It could be some of those "fat slobs" have a stockpile like no one else....
could be some are just fat slobs. either way, the place saves me money
everytime. When I don't know what I'm shopping for and need quality, I go to
a small mom and pop, like mine. I shop a local video game shop because they
give my daughter tips on what gameboy games are cool and when the prices
will drop. they take time to show her the games and talk to me about what
types of games I like and whats coming out, what to rent and what to buy....
and what they thought of them. Well worth the extra $3-$5 per game.... and
they save my daughter that same $3-$5 in allowance money.

win/win
-Sprattoo

--
flies from $5.60 per DOZEN!
Rods/Reels and Gear
www.fly-fishing-flies.com

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:08:28 -0700, JR wrote:

Nor did I say I'd rather be an Italian than an
American, only that if I were poor and sick, I'd get better medical
treatment if I were an Italian in Italy than an American here.

Er, no, this is the first time you've said that you'd "get better
medical treatment if I were an Italian in Italy than an American here"
and phrased that way, I'd offer that such a premise is the losing
position in a debate on the issue. Thus far, all you've stated is where
you'd prefer to be sick. Heck, I'd rather have a cold in Tahiti than be
fit as a fiddle in Los Angeles.

A wealthy Italian or whatever nationality would stand a better chance
of getting _better_ medical treatment anywhere than a "poor" American
or whatever nationality anywhere, but that's a different debate, too.
You appear, as many do, to wish to marry the (apparent) cost to the
patient with the quality/skill of the care. What you _might_ get in
Italy is medical treatment of some degree at a less readily-apparent
cost to you when compared to what you _might_ get in the US.

TC,
R
....and enjoy Uganda...but watch out for loonies with bazookas out
elephant hunting - I'd rather be a poor Italian with 14 serious diseases
on the sidewalk outside a US hospital than be a comfortable US citizen
(with good insurance _and_ AFLAC, no less) in Uganda with a minor flesh
wound...

wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:08:28 -0700, JR wrote:

..... only that if I were poor and sick, I'd get better medical
treatment if I were an Italian in Italy than an American here.

Er, no, this is the first time you've said that you'd "get better
medical treatment if I were an Italian in Italy than an American here"

My bad. I assumed since the topic was medical care and health care
systems, that *that* was how what I wrote would be read. The whole tube
sock angle was, I confess, entirely unforeseen.

...and enjoy Uganda...but watch out for loonies with bazookas out
elephant hunting - I'd rather be a poor Italian with 14 serious diseases
on the sidewalk outside a US hospital than be a comfortable US citizen
(with good insurance _and_ AFLAC, no less) in Uganda with a minor flesh
wound...

No ****. I've been to Uganda and surrounding countries a lot over the
years. Folks worry about terrorists, tropical diseases, etc., but being
in a simple car accident is what scares the beejesus out of me.

FWIW, unless things have changed in the past five years, the best option
there is the clinic at the British High Commission. (Maybe that
tradition of socialized medicine......? g)