No fish

On 15-Sep-2009, rw wrote:

You don't understand, Todd. Wolfgang's art is in being the most
obnoxious, self-important, asshole dick on ROFF that he can possibly be.
In a way it's a beautiful thing. Nearly perfection.

Art
I think not
He is like a child playing w his own excrement
Wolfie is just a pathetic buffoon and a fool.
And even more importantly - a apthetic creep

Just killfile the moron

Fred

Bob Blean wrote:
In any case, regardless of your beliefs on abortion, anti-abortion
legislation is a clear example of attempting to legislate someone's
religious beliefs.

Hi Bob,

Thank you for the excellent response.

I did not mean to imply that only Christian religious beliefs
were valid. I do think it is a good thing to bring your
moral values to the arena of ideas, where ever you get them
from.

On the abortion front, the "Thou shalt not murder" would
be my religious value. If you do not agree this with
this or simply think is does not applied to small people,
then state so. If you would like an argument for
non-believers, watch a video on an unborn child being
murdered: they try to scream with their unformed
mouths.

There is no issue with non-controversial things, such as murder,
theft, etc -- everyone believes those are wrong, even without
any religious teaching. Legislating against them is just fine.

Actually, not everyone believes these are wrong. They could
make the case that your are trying to ram your religion/moral
beliefs down their throats. (The majority disagrees, so too bad.)

That the majority should be respectful of the minority's rights
goes without saying. Barring one from politics because
of the religious beliefs is a receipt for tyranny.

-T

Bob Blean wrote:

I am a vet too (Vietnam, longer than the minimum required time).

Hi Bob,

You put your ass on the line for people you did not even know.
I greatly appreciate and respect your service. You are a hero.

There is no issue with non-controversial things, such as murder, theft,
etc -- everyone believes those are wrong, even without any religious
teaching. Legislating against them is just fine.

I keep thinking about your letter. All of the things you
list above can be traced back to someone's religious values.
Typically the ten commandments. Atheist's values float, so
they do not apply here.

Somewhere along the line, religious folks convinced you and
a lot of others to "share" their moral values. Bear in mind,
that when others disagree with us on these (the above you listed)
moral values and act out on them, we throw them in prison.
Talk about forcing one's values down others throats. (Too bad.)

I am also not trying to convert, by sword or otherwise,
you to my religion, I am trying to convince you in the arena
of ideas, that my "moral" belief is something that you
should share with me. Convince, not force. I want/need
you to join with me in fighting to protect those
who can not protect themselves (abortion). It is my
job to convince you of my point. As it is yours to
disagree with me to pull me over to your point of view.

The cramming my religion down your throat argument is a
distraction to keep us from hearing each other's words.

By the way, you write very well.
-T

Todd wrote:

I keep thinking about your letter. All of the things you
list above can be traced back to someone's religious values.
Typically the ten commandments. Atheist's values float, so
they do not apply here.

As a converted Pastafarian I subscribe to the eight "I'd Really Rather
You Didn'ts" that are the basis for the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti
Monster:

1.I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like a Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou
Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In
Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About
Them So Don't Change The Subject.

2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress,
Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I
Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.

3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or
How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay?
Oh, And Get This In Your Thick Heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person.
Samey = Samey. One Is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking
About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who
Know The Difference Between Teal and Fuchsia.

4.I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself,
Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As
For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself,
Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off the TV
For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.

5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist,
Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B******.

6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build Multimillion-Dollar
Churches/Temples/Mosques/Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money
Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick):

Ending Poverty

Curing Diseases

Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable
I Might be a Complex-Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The
Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM the Creator.

7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go Around Telling People I Talk To You.
You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love
Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?

8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do
Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses A Lot Of
Leather/Lubricant/Las Vegas. If The Other Person Is Into It, However
(Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of
Mike, Wear a CONDOM! Honestly, It's A Piece Of Rubber. If I Didn't Want
It To Feel Good When You Did IT I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

How's this one. With my first wife, we had a choice. We found out
during her 7th month of pregnancy that she had a birth defect that if
she gave birth to the baby, it had a 50% chance of killing her.
I chose not to tell her, because I believed she would choose an
abortion. I, a man, not the woman, made the choice for her. She gave
birth and died.
So, you're telling me that a man should make that determination of
life or death for a woman? Have you ever made that choice for someone
you loved based upon moral principle? I did. My wife died. I WILL
not let you or any other man make that decision for a woman. If your
religion (an show me one that isn't headed up by a man) wishes to do
that, then I'm against it.
Frank Reid
(oh, and if you think I'm making this up for the sake of the argument,
you're wrong there too)

Todd wrote:
I did not mean to imply that only Christian religious beliefs
were valid. I do think it is a good thing to bring your
moral values to the arena of ideas, where ever you get them
from.

I am glad to hear you say that. Unfortunately some mean exactly that --
which is why I got so disturbed by the religious questioning of
political candidates in that last election. It appeared to me that a
candidate had little chance to get elected unless the candidate was
willing to profess a strong belief in a Christian God. That is not the
way things should be.

That the majority should be respectful of the minority's rights
goes without saying. Barring one from politics because
of the religious beliefs is a receipt for tyranny.

Yes -- and that is what the founding fathers had in mind. They had too
much recent experience with problems of that kind.

Todd wrote:
I keep thinking about your letter. All of the things you
list above can be traced back to someone's religious values.
Typically the ten commandments. Atheist's values float, so
they do not apply here.

It seems to me that some values are important for a stable society.
Those values have existed for a long time, in societies even before the
Ten Commandments. In those times, pretty much everyone was religious,
so I suppose that many common core values can be said to descend from
religion of some sort.

In other words, I am not convinced that the Ten Commandments (aside from
the monotheistic imperatives) are all that original. For example, while
there are exceptions, most societies found it expedient to prohibit
murder and stealing within the group (outsiders were apt to be another
story, though).

I would want any political candidate to have a firm grasp on a set of
core values that are needed for a stable society; I reject the concept
that he needs to be a professing religious person to have good values.

I am also not trying to convert, by sword or otherwise,
you to my religion, I am trying to convince you in the arena
of ideas, that my "moral" belief is something that you
should share with me. Convince, not force. I want/need
you to join with me in fighting to protect those
who can not protect themselves (abortion). It is my
job to convince you of my point. As it is yours to
disagree with me to pull me over to your point of view.

The cramming my religion down your throat argument is a
distraction to keep us from hearing each other's words.

I like your point on convincing -- to me the proper way to deal with
such controversial issues is to convince the other side, not to
legislate your beliefs.

I am not trying to argue one way or the other about such topics as
abortion and stem cell research. What I *am* trying to point out is
that for many people, their position on such things is a religious
belief -- many people take their positions on those items as a result of
what they believe their religion (or pastor/minister/reverend/...) says
on the subject.

That results in them trying to legislate their religious belief, even
knowing that many honorable and well-meaning folks, and even other
religions, may disagree with them.

One of my worries when people try to legislate their religious beliefs
is that those beliefs are seen as non-negotiable moral absolutes, not
subject to reasoned discourse.

By the way, you write very well.

Thank you.
-T

"Todd" wrote in message ...
Would you not want to have your candidate
thumb through the ten commandments and
say, this one, not this one, not this one,
I like my mistress too much, this one,...?

sort of akin to how Jefferson created his version of the Bible?
Tom

"Todd" wrote in message ...
Atheist's values float, so
they do not apply here.

says who?

Tom

"Todd" wrote in message ...
I heard otherwise several places. I thought it was Rev. Abernathy
that I actually heard it from.

I'm utterly shocked that Ralph Abernathy converses with you.


But, I would trust Rev. Abernathy
word over all the rest. So, just prostitutes. I appreciate you
pointing it out.

(regarding Rush) Don't criticize unless you actually listen to
what he says.

ok. I've listened to him(riding home from Penn's, a couple of times). He's a
drug-addled loony hypocrite, who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and
bit him on the ass. Fair enough?



I do admire Rev. Kings words and all the crap he had to go
through to point out a huge moral blind spot that should have
been obvious to anyone. I do not admire him cheating on his
wife, beating the hell our of his prostitutes, plagiarizing
other people's work, cavorting with communists.

maybe you should stick to his words, because, while he clearly(and
admittedly) cheated on his wife, the other stuff you cite as 'fact' is a bit
suspect.

Tom

Tom Littleton wrote:
"Todd" wrote:
(regarding Rush) Don't criticize unless you actually listen to
what he says.

ok. I've listened to him(riding home from Penn's, a couple of times). He's a
drug-addled loony hypocrite, who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and
bit him on the ass. Fair enough?

I listen to his show occasionally when I happen to be in the
car between 11 and 2. The guy is a classic snake oil salesman
who knows his audience and how to push their buttons.

I knew Todd was a phony when he started in with the christian
crap calling Obama evil because of some votes he made in the
Illinois Senate. No one who truly understands Christian values
could listen to a whole week of Limbaugh hate-mongering and
not be disgusted.

It's really too bad Todd came along when he did. I'm a happy
camper who has had wet wading boots on the back porch for the
last two weeks and I'm just chock full of the milk of human
kindness. Better that Todd had showed up during cabin fever
season when he would have been given the roffian welcome he
so richly deserves. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry