Need help finding an underwater Baetis fly

Hi All,

One of my pet project for about a year now is to
find a fly (I do not tie my own) that imitates an
underwater ovipositing Baetis spinner. I have come
up dry.

My big problem is that nothing I have found actually
looks like what I am after. Here is a picture from
Ralph Cutter's website.

http://www.flyline.com/_images/baetisuw.gif

Note that the winds are straight up and stuck
together by an air bubble.

The idea is to present this fly under the film the
way a real ovipositing Baetis looks after it "falls
upward" when they eventually loose their footing.
And, when they hit the film, to flip on their sides.

Many thanks,
-T

p.s. as an aside, the picture that goes with a fascinating
explanation by Ralph. Those of you that love the
biology behind such things will find the male's
imitating the females behavior fascinating as well.
The code to oviposit must not be on the X-Y gene
sequence. You can never know enough about trout
or their food. (My opinion, yours my vary.)

http://www.flyline.com/tips_trivia/all_that_glitters/

One of the most amazing yet under utilized "glitter
bugs" is the Baetis spinner. Many Baetis mayflies are
unique in that the adult females (spinners), crawl
underwater and affix their eggs to streambed structure.
For some reason, the females will often be joined
underwater by males (mating occurs above water). These
mayflies trap a bubble of air between their upright
wings and look like tiny angels as they roam about the
streambed.

Baetis spinners are very bouyant and seem to have a
difficult time retaining a foothold on the streambed.
They very deliberately pick up and place one foot down
at a time; sometimes they will reach out with a foot
and tap the substrate in front of them as if they are
testing for the best foot hold. When they get lost to
the current it is all over, they don’t struggle, swim,
or attempt in any way to save themselves. Baetis
spinners are unique in that they fall up.

Baetis drift upwards wings first. When they hit the
film they immediately get flipped and adhere to the
meniscus on their sides. The spinners that reach the
surface get stuck under the film, making them nearly
invisible to the angler looking down into the water.
Clots of Baetis spinners will float up and collect
under rock ledges, undercut banks and any other
overhead trap. Trout will take Baetis spinners in
current seams and other "typical" feeding lies; however,
most fish will graze along the riverbed or move to
the Baetis traps during a heavy ovipositing.

Ovipositing Baetis are easy to imitate. They can be
fished dead drift anywhere in the water column but
are most effective along the streambed.

Take a baetis dry and add Zink.
Dave

On 08/11/2010 12:03 PM, DaveS wrote:

Take a baetis dry and add Zink.
Dave

Hi Dave,

I have found tons of Baetis imitations. My problem
is that I have not found a single one that actually looks
like the one in the picture. (And contrary to my stalker's
opinion, I have Googled this a lot.)

http://www.flyline.com/_images/baetisuw.gif

I may be being too picky here. I have been dragging
various Adams under the film to simulate what I am
after and having really great success.

If I could elaborate,
http://www.troutflies.com/Merchant2/...1087_small.jpg
looks like an absolute work of art. But it does not
look like the picture of an actual ovipositing Baetis.
1) it is the wrong color
2) its back is not curved upward
3) hackle instead of wings
4) no feet
5) no eyeballs
6) body is not distinct from the tail

I am being especially picky abut the wings. They need to
be straight up and together in a praying position. (I am
thinking I could actually get away with one wind.)

As I said, I may be being way to picky. It is a pet
project of mine.

Thank you for the tip.

-T

Todd wrote:
DaveS wrote:
Take a baetis dry and add Zink.

Hi Dave,

I have found tons of Baetis imitations. My problem
is that I have not found a single one that actually looks
like the one in the picture. (And contrary to my stalker's
opinion, I have Googled this a lot.)

Stalker ?

http://www.flyline.com/_images/baetisuw.gif

I may be being too picky here. I have been dragging
various Adams under the film to simulate what I am
after and having really great success.

If I could elaborate,
http://www.troutflies.com/Merchant2/...1087_small.jpg
looks like an absolute work of art. But it does not
look like the picture of an actual ovipositing Baetis.
1) it is the wrong color
2) its back is not curved upward
3) hackle instead of wings
4) no feet
5) no eyeballs
6) body is not distinct from the tail

I am being especially picky abut the wings. They need to
be straight up and together in a praying position. (I am
thinking I could actually get away with one wind.)

As I said, I may be being way to picky. It is a pet
project of mine.

It doesn't matter what the fly looks like *to you*, you don't
have trout eyes. You could tie up an EXACT replica, identical
in every respect to what a baetis looks like *to you*, and to
the trout it looks like feathers on a hook.

http://www.depuyspringcreek.com/FlyP...isPatterns.htm

Any of the CDC patterns on that page will look like the fly
in the pic you posted from the Cutler web page *to a trout*.

Thank you for the tip.

And here's a tip from me, you don't need to reinvent the
wheel, Mr. Science. You're obviously a tyro and you're not
going to impress any of the experienced anglers here with a
fancy vocabulary and citations to journal articles.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 08/12/2010 10:58 AM, Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Stalker ?

not you

On 2010-08-12 13:26:25 -0400, Todd said:

On 08/11/2010 12:03 PM, DaveS wrote:

Take a baetis dry and add Zink.
Dave

Hi Dave,

I have found tons of Baetis imitations. My problem
is that I have not found a single one that actually looks
like the one in the picture.

Have you found a mayfly that actually looks like an Adams? A parachute Adams?

(And contrary to my stalker's
opinion, I have Googled this a lot.)

Hard to believe after some of the questions you've asked on this forum.
And I'm not stalking you - I can't; you are anonymous with a phony
e-mail address. No stalking involved. I'm just trying to get you out
of the closet. d;o) I've never stalked anyone, btw. If you post
stupid **** on the internet while remaining anonymous in name and isp,
you can expect detractors.


http://www.flyline.com/_images/baetisuw.gif

I may be being too picky here.

No ****?

I have been dragging
various Adams under the film to simulate what I am
after and having really great success.

Well, if you are having "really great success", why, pray tell, are you
asking for advice? You have found the answer. Put some zink on
something and drag it across the bottom. Or, use a PT soft hackle with
some split shot.

If I could elaborate,
http://www.troutflies.com/Merchant2/...1087_small.jpg
looks like an absolute work of art. But it does not
look like the picture of an actual ovipositing Baetis.

No ****?

1) it is the wrong color
2) its back is not curved upward
3) hackle instead of wings
4) no feet
5) no eyeballs
6) body is not distinct from the tail

Ah, color. Color is very important. Backs are not always curved.
Clip some wings off a house fly and glue them on. Feet and eyeballs
are very important, Todd. However, don't forget the nose, mouth, and
toenails. What you need to do, Todd, is find one of them there insects
and put it on a very small hook - maybe use super glue. And, there ya
go! Voila! A genuwhine ovipositing baetis.

I am being especially picky abut the wings.

No ****?

They need to
be straight up and together in a praying position.

No they don't. Soft hackle does a wonderful job imitating of wings.
If a flyfisherman had to have a perfect imitation of an insect in any
of its stages, such an imitation would be too valuable to fish. And,
I'm betting it would be a bitch to cast and steady in the water column.

(I am
thinking I could actually get away with one wind.)

Oh, no. Ya need more winds.

As I said, I may be being way to picky.

No ****?

It is a pet
project of mine.

Golf. 'Tis the only solution for your many problems.



Thank you for the tip.

Think nothing of it.


-T

Dave (Tips R Us)
eyes rolling

On 08/12/2010 11:16 AM, D. LaCourse wrote:
Hard to believe after some of the questions you've asked on this forum.

I rather think they are very interesting. Your opinion may vary.
This is a discussion group. Sorry if that annoys you. Well, maybe not.
I can not wait to see your knee jerk if and when I ever ask about rod
flash and vest color. Oh my gosh, I might even include a reference!

And I'm not stalking you - I can't; you are anonymous with a phony
e-mail address. No stalking involved. I'm just trying to get you out of
the closet. d;o) I've never stalked anyone, btw.

Oh I think you have risen to the task quite nicely. You really should
avoid reading my posts. They make you act like a prat. Fortunately,
I can only count one other person in my life, out of hundreds, that I
have that effect. So, I think I am doing okay. And, oh yes, I am
really going to tell a stalker who I am. Maybe in my next life.
You need to respect my request for anonymity. Okay, maybe three.

If you post stupid ****
on the internet while remaining anonymous in name and isp, you can
expect detractors.

Especially when they don't understand what you are saying and their
pride gets in the way of asking you what you are talking about.


Well, if you are having "really great success", why, pray tell, are you
asking for advice?

It is a pet project of mine. And there are a lot of folks with
this kind of knowledge on this group. And, other than you, act
like gentleman. A lot of nice folks on this discussion group
ask about their projects, right down to the screws they use
on their reals.

Soft hackle does a wonderful job imitating of wings

Only "above" the film, where the hackle is imitating the
six pin pricks on the meniscus that show up like a strobe
light, especially at the edge of the Snell circle. I would
quote you a reference, but I am afraid your knee will jerk
so hard you might hurt yourself.

Thank you for the tip.
Think nothing of it.

I was thanking the other Dave. Sorry. Maybe next time.

-T

Did someone stick a gun to your head and force you to read
my posts? Do we need to call 911 for you?

On 2010-08-12 14:53:56 -0400, Todd said:

On 08/12/2010 11:16 AM, D. LaCourse wrote:
Hard to believe after some of the questions you've asked on this forum.

I rather think they are very interesting.

Yes. Many people feel that way, especially about my fishing prowess.
Your opinion may vary.

Oh, I should hope so.

This is a discussion group.

No ****?
Sorry if that annoys you.

I'm not annoyed.

Well, maybe not.
I can not wait to see your knee jerk if and when I ever ask about rod
flash and vest color.

I've fished with red, orange, yellow, blue, white, black, grey,
justabouteverycolor shirt, and I am usually successful. I am sure
there are "experts" out there that will tell you anything besides _____
(add your own color) vest is bad, and that "rod flash" is also bad.
May be. I don't know. And I couldn't care less. You know why?
Because I catch fish no matter where I go. Ask people on roff. And I
am not bragging, or at least I do not mean to brag. Some of the best
fishermen I've ever fished with (Tom Littleton and Steve Barnard) will
tell you I catch fish. I need not worry about what colors I have on or
if my rod is flashing. Stealth can be of prime importance on some
rivers, but even then, worrying about what colors you have on is
carrying this a little too far.

Oh my gosh, I might even include a reference!

Of course you might. You remind me of a pathetic soul who lives in a
hovel under a bridge in Germany. He knows a helluva lot about fishing,
but never fishes. Funny......

And I'm not stalking you - I can't; you are anonymous with a phony
e-mail address. No stalking involved. I'm just trying to get you out of
the closet. d;o) I've never stalked anyone, btw.

Oh I think you have risen to the task quite nicely. You really should
avoid reading my posts.

Oh, I can't, Todd. Your posts are like candy to a baby, nicotine to a
smoker, whisky to an alcoholic.

They make you act like a prat.

Prat? Nah. I hate imposters, and you are an imposter. Prat - isn't
that a word only an Englishman would use? Never heard an American use
it.

Fortunately,
I can only count one other person in my life, out of hundreds, that I
have that effect.

What effect?

So, I think I am doing okay. And, oh yes, I am
really going to tell a stalker who I am.

I have stalkers. Several. They know who I am, where I live, my phone
number, but I remain free of any harm. Name one person on this ng that
has been harmed by stalkers?

Maybe in my next life.

I thought you were a little 11 yo girl, not a cat. Sheesh. More than
one life. How lucky are you!

You need to respect my request for anonymity.

I don't *need* to do anything as far as you are concerned.

Okay, maybe three.

Of what?

If you post stupid ****
on the internet while remaining anonymous in name and isp, you can
expect detractors.

Especially when they don't understand what you are saying and their
pride gets in the way of asking you what you are talking about.

Huh? Doesn't seem to hold you back, M.....Todd.


Well, if you are having "really great success", why, pray tell, are you
asking for advice?

It is a pet project of mine.

Gold would be a better pet.

And there are a lot of folks with
this kind of knowledge on this group.

Name one. Go ahead, I'll wait. Name one.

And, other than you, act
like gentleman.

Oh, egads. You've called my ungentlemanly. I shall lose a few
milliseconds of sleep over that slam. gasp

A lot of nice folks on this discussion group
ask about their projects, right down to the screws they use
on their reals.

They do? Well, we are in the process of redecorating our Mass. home.
New carpets and all. Our decorator says keep the carpet dark and the
walls light. What do you think? This is a pet project of my wife, but
I can advise her. Whatcha think?

Riverman's screw problem is something that should and can be discussed
on roff. Sad to say that no one could help him.

Soft hackle does a wonderful job imitating of wings

Only "above" the film, where the hackle is imitating the
six pin pricks on the meniscus that show up like a strobe
light, especially at the edge of the Snell circle.

Idiot! Soft hackle flies are normally nymphs, sub surface. A pheasant
tail is a sub surface nymph. Add soft hackle to it and it imitates
*exactly* what you are looking for. You ask a question, and then you
do not take the advice given. Your ovipositing baetis is PERFECTLY
mimicked by a PT soft hackle.

I would
quote you a reference, but I am afraid your knee will jerk
so hard you might hurt yourself.

Well, post away. We real old guys can't move our knees too well.

Thank you for the tip.
Think nothing of it.

I was thanking the other Dave.

Well, just how many Daves do we have here?

Sorry. Maybe next time.

For what.


-T

Did someone stick a gun to your head and force you to read
my posts?

Ah, that's an old roff come back. Are you sure you haven't posted here
before? Are you sure you don't live in a hovel under a bridge near a
train station.

Do we need to call 911 for you?

Yippee. Please do. I haven't been in a cop car in a couple of years -
ever since I retired from school.

Chief Stalker LaCourse, sir.

On 2010-08-11 12:13:55 -0400, Todd said:

Hi All,

One of my pet project for about a year now is to
find a fly (I do not tie my own) that imitates an
underwater ovipositing Baetis spinner. I have come
up dry.

My big problem is that nothing I have found actually
looks like what I am after. Here is a picture from
Ralph Cutter's website.

http://www.flyline.com/_images/baetisuw.gif

Note that the winds are straight up and stuck
together by an air bubble.

The idea is to present this fly under the film the
way a real ovipositing Baetis looks after it "falls
upward" when they eventually loose their footing.
And, when they hit the film, to flip on their sides.

Many thanks,
-T

p.s. as an aside, the picture that goes with a fascinating
explanation by Ralph. Those of you that love the
biology behind such things will find the male's
imitating the females behavior fascinating as well.
The code to oviposit must not be on the X-Y gene
sequence. You can never know enough about trout
or their food. (My opinion, yours my vary.)

http://www.flyline.com/tips_trivia/all_that_glitters/

One of the most amazing yet under utilized "glitter
bugs" is the Baetis spinner. Many Baetis mayflies are
unique in that the adult females (spinners), crawl
underwater and affix their eggs to streambed structure.
For some reason, the females will often be joined
underwater by males (mating occurs above water). These
mayflies trap a bubble of air between their upright
wings and look like tiny angels as they roam about the
streambed.

Baetis spinners are very bouyant and seem to have a
difficult time retaining a foothold on the streambed.
They very deliberately pick up and place one foot down
at a time; sometimes they will reach out with a foot
and tap the substrate in front of them as if they are
testing for the best foot hold. When they get lost to
the current it is all over, they don’t struggle, swim,
or attempt in any way to save themselves. Baetis
spinners are unique in that they fall up.

Baetis drift upwards wings first. When they hit the
film they immediately get flipped and adhere to the
meniscus on their sides. The spinners that reach the
surface get stuck under the film, making them nearly
invisible to the angler looking down into the water.
Clots of Baetis spinners will float up and collect
under rock ledges, undercut banks and any other
overhead trap. Trout will take Baetis spinners in
current seams and other "typical" feeding lies; however,
most fish will graze along the riverbed or move to
the Baetis traps during a heavy ovipositing.

Ovipositing Baetis are easy to imitate. They can be
fished dead drift anywhere in the water column but
are most effective along the streambed.

You mean that Mr. Cutter didn't or can't answer your question?

Any soft hackle baetis spinner pattern will work. Look for a pheasant
tail soft hackle. It will work.

On Aug 11, 11:13*am, Todd wrote:


p.s. as an aside, the picture that goes with a fascinating
explanation by Ralph. *Those of you that love the
biology behind such things will find the male's
imitating the females behavior fascinating as well.
The code to oviposit must not be on the X-Y gene
sequence. *You can never know enough about trout
or their food. *(My opinion, yours my vary.)

Can't help you with your question but if your interested in the sexual
quirks of bugs and other crittes you should read "Dr Tatiana's Sex
Advice to All Creation" by Olivia Judson, an extremely interesting and
edifying look at evolutionary biology.

giles
p.s. watching you twist davie into ever tighter little knots is
hilarious, whether not not it's intentional.....and, no, i couldn't
care less either way.