Salmon Fly Line Dillema

Choosing a spey fly line is prooving more difficult than I imagined and
experts's opinion seem to vary dramatically, contradicting eachother to the
point that the average punter is confused.

On the one end, you have a respected and vastly experienced Scottish casting
instructor stating in his very good website review of speylines that he
favours a traditionnal DT profile for the bulk of his fishing whilst
prefering modified Wf profiles for pure distance....and on the other hand ,
tackle shops and other APGAI instructors who really only promote WF profiles
and when questionned reply that they hate DT lines.



I started with a Rio Windcutter and now wish to move to the next step, now
that I have acquired the basics. The Rio midspey is the logical choice but I
am overall very confused and at a loss when choosing. Trying with the rod is
best but nowhere can one actually try everything and anything.., especially
not a traditionnal DT 10!

My dilemma is that I feel I know need a longer head ( I have reached maximum
distance with my current line and want to do a bit less spaguetti retrieving
before casting again) but also hate -when fishing smallish streams - to be
disabled because the rod does not really load until most of the head is out
of the top ring.

A 70 feet head is probably the maximum I want to go to as really long belly
lines seem to be for the very proficient caster and adapted only to very
large rivers whilst I fish only medium to large rivers.



In summary, I could do with views of real salmon anglers rather than expert
casters, people who have can testify of their practical experience rather
than loose me in theoritical debates.



Considered spey lines a

Cortland or SA Ultra DT

Cortland Spey tri colour

Mastery series SA Spey

Rio Mid Spey

Lee Wulf TT 70feet

any views on Hardy Mach and Snowbee?



Many thanks in advance

The Leaping Frog

The message
from "The Leaping Frog" contains these
words:

post snipped
In summary, I could do with views of real salmon anglers rather than expert
casters, people who have can testify of their practical experience rather
than loose me in theoritical debates.

Like you, I now find myself requiring a new line to replace one that has
seen a couple of seasons of heavy service. And like you, I now find
myself faced with a bewildering array of products and brands to choose
from.

I mostly fish with a fifteen-foot rod with quite a soft action and I
tend to roll and Spey cast a fair bit. I favour Scientific Anglers and
Hardy lines as I find they're soft and supple and have very little
memory, even in very cold water conditions. But I suppose that claim
could now be made for most lines on the market, thanks to the
technological advances over the last ten years.

I have bought quite a few salmon lines; most were expensive and one or
two were a real disappointment. So I guess it's just down to either
sticking with the devil you know, or being brave enough to try something
completely different that may, or may not, suit your rod and style of
casting.

After pondering my own dilemma, I eventually decided to enrol in
Fishtec's VIP Web Club. It cost me £30.00 but I was able to choose a
free line of any size from their Airflo Polyfuse range as part of the
deal.

I had to make the choice between an 11/12 weight line with a 57ft head
or a 10/11 weight line with a 67ft head. I eventually chose the latter.
It may be a decision that I come to regret.

Never having used one, I have no idea what Airflo lines are like. They
could be complete rubbish. It will be interesting finding out. But for
what I would have paid just for the line, I still get a 10% discount on
everything I purchase from Fishtec for the next twelve months.

If you want some interesting reading check out www.speypages.com and hit
the 'line' link. There might be something there that can help you make a
choice.

--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

Hi Kim,

Sorry for my late response.

I had to make the choice between an 11/12 weight line with a 57ft head
or a 10/11 weight line with a 67ft head. I eventually chose the latter. It
may be a decision that I come to regret
well, probably the line needed to progress. The 57' being very similar to my
current Rio Windcutter. If you manage to master 67', it will get your
further- not just in distance but use & "fishability" - than a short head.


check out www.speypages.com and hit the 'line' link. There might be
something there that can help you make a choice.
by chance I had done that before reading your response and it prooved
useful.
other people have actually recommended that website. In it, I am still
waiting to find the video of the Spey-O-Rama. Alledgedly very good, if I
manage to find it!

Airflo!....: well, for no reason, I do not like airflo. I am too much of a
brand junkie and they just do not do it for me. That is irrational but that
is my privilege a sa customer!

On a different note, I contacted a mate of mine who is a casting instructor.
Are shooting heads not less distrete than spey lines did I ask? No, my
friend he replied: a shooting head used underhand style is accompanied by a
5meter long leader and is very discrete indeed. Out of the window went my
argument!
The truth is I am not very good a spey caster yet and would find silly to
start learning another casting style.It would probably confuse me and
require another set of lines. not theinvestment I have in mind.

Regards
Jerome




"Kim Sawyer" wrote in message
...
The message
from "The Leaping Frog" contains these
words:

post snipped
In summary, I could do with views of real salmon anglers rather than
expert
casters, people who have can testify of their practical experience rather
than loose me in theoritical debates.

Like you, I now find myself requiring a new line to replace one that has
seen a couple of seasons of heavy service. And like you, I now find
myself faced with a bewildering array of products and brands to choose
from.

I mostly fish with a fifteen-foot rod with quite a soft action and I
tend to roll and Spey cast a fair bit. I favour Scientific Anglers and
Hardy lines as I find they're soft and supple and have very little
memory, even in very cold water conditions. But I suppose that claim
could now be made for most lines on the market, thanks to the
technological advances over the last ten years.

I have bought quite a few salmon lines; most were expensive and one or
two were a real disappointment. So I guess it's just down to either
sticking with the devil you know, or being brave enough to try something
completely different that may, or may not, suit your rod and style of
casting.

After pondering my own dilemma, I eventually decided to enrol in
Fishtec's VIP Web Club. It cost me £30.00 but I was able to choose a
free line of any size from their Airflo Polyfuse range as part of the
deal.

I had to make the choice between an 11/12 weight line with a 57ft head
or a 10/11 weight line with a 67ft head. I eventually chose the latter.
It may be a decision that I come to regret.

Never having used one, I have no idea what Airflo lines are like. They
could be complete rubbish. It will be interesting finding out. But for
what I would have paid just for the line, I still get a 10% discount on
everything I purchase from Fishtec for the next twelve months.

If you want some interesting reading check out www.speypages.com and hit
the 'line' link. There might be something there that can help you make a
choice.

--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

The message
from "The Leaping Frog" contains these
words:

Sorry for my late response.

No problem.

well, probably the line needed to progress. The 57' being very similar
to my
current Rio Windcutter. If you manage to master 67', it will get your
further- not just in distance but use & "fishability" - than a short head.

I think the longer version will better suit the rod I intend using it
with. In a perfect world, no line should be purchased without trying it
first. But that's rarely a practical proposition. Few of us have a hard
enough neck to order a new line and upon finding we dislike it, send it
back. I think this happens more often with weight forward lines than
d.t.'s

My first introduction to weight forward lines was a freebie from Sierra
with one of their reels. I think it was the XDA Clear Head Intermediate.
God, but I hate that line! The head is just thirty-three feet long and
just as you are reaching the point where the rod is loading properly,
you find yourself on the cotton thin backing. With cold wet fingers it's
misery to use. However, I have caught a lot of fish using that line and
it can, with practice, be shot a very long way. But I certainly wouldn't
buy one.

check out www.speypages.com and hit the 'line' link. There might be
something there that can help you make a choice.
by chance I had done that before reading your response and it proved
useful. other people have actually recommended that website. In it, I
am still
waiting to find the video of the Spey-O-Rama. Alledgedly very good, if I
manage to find it!

I registered, but I haven't subscribed, so haven't been able to view any
video footage. But the write-up on individual lines is useful. Having
already decided to buy an Airflo line, I was pleased to see it had
received a good revue. I have been offered a day on the Spey latter this
week. With luck, The line will arrive in time for me to put it through
its paces on the very water it was designed to be used on.

Airflo!....: well, for no reason, I do not like airflo. I am too much of a
brand junkie and they just do not do it for me. That is irrational but that
is my privilege a sa customer!

I feel a bit like that regarding Scierra lines. Silly really, when
they're just half the price of their competitors. If I am buying
locally, I generally try to buy the best that I can afford, believing
money buys quality. Sometimes I have been proved wrong and buying
locally generally assures a sympathetic hearing if a problem arrises
later with the line.

On a different note, I contacted a mate of mine who is a casting
instructor.
Are shooting heads not less distrete than spey lines did I ask? No, my
friend he replied: a shooting head used underhand style is accompanied by a
5meter long leader and is very discrete indeed. Out of the window went my
argument!

A lot of people who roll and Spey cast haven't mastered the art of
actually shooting line. This is because, as with the overhead cast,
timing is involved. As a consequence, line is ripped off the water,
often where fish are later expected to take. The extended cast, placed
correctly, should land above and beyond the lie you intend to cover. So
even if it's a bit messy, it shouldn't really matter that much.

For salmon, I measure the leader from the top joint of the rod to the
reel foot. Anything longer isn't required and can severely impair
turnover, particularly with an upstream wind. I still fish a lot with
double tapered lines. Sometimes, shortening the taper of an old line by
four or six feet can transform its performance, greatly improving both
handling and distance. But it takes the heart of Bruce to do it,
particularly if it's a new line that for some reason you are just not
getting on with.

The truth is I am not very good a spey caster yet and would find silly to
start learning another casting style.It would probably confuse me and
require another set of lines. not theinvestment I have in mind.

Quite a few 'Spey casters' fish here and, to be frank, they're the bain
of my life. Many can throw a beautiful long line, but it is generally on
pools where a long line isn't required and is in fact counter
productive. The Carron is a rocky spate river with many small deep
pools. The water immediately under ones' rod tip is easily deep enough
to hold that coveted double-figure springer. But all too often, by the
time our paragon of casting expertise has a line of a sufficient length
out to properly load the rod, the fly is fishing in the tail of the
pool.

The postie has just been; and the only line he delivered was written on
paper...:-(


--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

I tried out my friend's Hardy Mach 1 line last year. Ever the cynic I
couldn't see before trying it what all the fuss was about & how the
line could make that much difference to the cast. The difference
between casting it & my line (standard Hardy double taper salmon
length) was incredible. Just to make sure it wasn't the paring with
his rod we swapped his line/reel to mine (Hardy 15'4" Elite) & it
worked just as well.

Needless to say I made a quick trip from the river bank to the tackle
shop (Mortimers in Grantown-on-Spey). Interestingly they reccomended
the regular length version of the line rather than the extra long one -
aparently it didn't handle as well.

If you are not in a rush to buy one a good place to do some testing is
the CLA game fair in July. All the major manufacturers are generally
there so you can try out different combinations of reels & lines. When
I was looking for a new rod a few years ago I turned up with my reel &
tried out most of the manufacturers offerings one after another. Was
very interesting to compare the different actions, although I did end
up going with the one I first though of.

Went practising the other evening with a friend.

He brought his 13' ~8/9 and we tried it with a triangular taper (not a Lee
Wulf). I was having a bad day -with back pains coming up quickly- but still,
this left aside, I hated that line. Felt very light and not loading the
road sufficiently..
We then tried a DT profile of the relevant rating on the same road and I
hated it two.. We could not shoot even a yard or two.
We then tackled my 15' 10/11 and practiced with my windcutter and although
my casts left to be desired, the difference was massive. At last we could
feel the road load and work. I find the timing is so critical in spey
casting, so is not to dip the fly line in the water when anchoring it.

Conclusions: still very confused as to whether I want to keep this oldish
line. It really only has fished for about 4 weeks even if I bought it in
2000. I would had that it was kept away from sun rays. Any views?
2nd comment: I am going away to Norway in July and can see that I will
probably end up nacked after one week of spey casting. I realize strength is
not essential to good speycasting but still, casting a 15' is quite
demanding. "If your back hurts, my son, your technique is probably not
right". And indeed I find I probably put to much power into my forward
stroke.== this resulted one day in Ally Gowans suggesting to hold the road
with a circle grip: with thumb and 1st finger for both top and bottom hand.

Tightlines
Jerome

"Kim Sawyer" wrote in message
...
The message
from "The Leaping Frog" contains these
words:

Sorry for my late response.

No problem.

well, probably the line needed to progress. The 57' being very similar
to my
current Rio Windcutter. If you manage to master 67', it will get your
further- not just in distance but use & "fishability" - than a short
head.

I think the longer version will better suit the rod I intend using it
with. In a perfect world, no line should be purchased without trying it
first. But that's rarely a practical proposition. Few of us have a hard
enough neck to order a new line and upon finding we dislike it, send it
back. I think this happens more often with weight forward lines than
d.t.'s

My first introduction to weight forward lines was a freebie from Sierra
with one of their reels. I think it was the XDA Clear Head Intermediate.
God, but I hate that line! The head is just thirty-three feet long and
just as you are reaching the point where the rod is loading properly,
you find yourself on the cotton thin backing. With cold wet fingers it's
misery to use. However, I have caught a lot of fish using that line and
it can, with practice, be shot a very long way. But I certainly wouldn't
buy one.

check out www.speypages.com and hit the 'line' link. There might be
something there that can help you make a choice.
by chance I had done that before reading your response and it proved
useful. other people have actually recommended that website. In it, I
am still
waiting to find the video of the Spey-O-Rama. Alledgedly very good, if I
manage to find it!

I registered, but I haven't subscribed, so haven't been able to view any
video footage. But the write-up on individual lines is useful. Having
already decided to buy an Airflo line, I was pleased to see it had
received a good revue. I have been offered a day on the Spey latter this
week. With luck, The line will arrive in time for me to put it through
its paces on the very water it was designed to be used on.

Airflo!....: well, for no reason, I do not like airflo. I am too much of
a
brand junkie and they just do not do it for me. That is irrational but
that
is my privilege a sa customer!

I feel a bit like that regarding Scierra lines. Silly really, when
they're just half the price of their competitors. If I am buying
locally, I generally try to buy the best that I can afford, believing
money buys quality. Sometimes I have been proved wrong and buying
locally generally assures a sympathetic hearing if a problem arrises
later with the line.

On a different note, I contacted a mate of mine who is a casting
instructor.
Are shooting heads not less distrete than spey lines did I ask? No, my
friend he replied: a shooting head used underhand style is accompanied by
a
5meter long leader and is very discrete indeed. Out of the window went my
argument!

A lot of people who roll and Spey cast haven't mastered the art of
actually shooting line. This is because, as with the overhead cast,
timing is involved. As a consequence, line is ripped off the water,
often where fish are later expected to take. The extended cast, placed
correctly, should land above and beyond the lie you intend to cover. So
even if it's a bit messy, it shouldn't really matter that much.

For salmon, I measure the leader from the top joint of the rod to the
reel foot. Anything longer isn't required and can severely impair
turnover, particularly with an upstream wind. I still fish a lot with
double tapered lines. Sometimes, shortening the taper of an old line by
four or six feet can transform its performance, greatly improving both
handling and distance. But it takes the heart of Bruce to do it,
particularly if it's a new line that for some reason you are just not
getting on with.

The truth is I am not very good a spey caster yet and would find silly to
start learning another casting style.It would probably confuse me and
require another set of lines. not theinvestment I have in mind.

Quite a few 'Spey casters' fish here and, to be frank, they're the bain
of my life. Many can throw a beautiful long line, but it is generally on
pools where a long line isn't required and is in fact counter
productive. The Carron is a rocky spate river with many small deep
pools. The water immediately under ones' rod tip is easily deep enough
to hold that coveted double-figure springer. But all too often, by the
time our paragon of casting expertise has a line of a sufficient length
out to properly load the rod, the fly is fishing in the tail of the
pool.

The postie has just been; and the only line he delivered was written on
paper...:-(


--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

The message
from "The Leaping Frog" contains these
words:

Went practising the other evening with a friend.

He brought his 13' ~8/9 and we tried it with a triangular taper (not a Lee
Wulf). I was having a bad day -with back pains coming up quickly- but
still,
this left aside, I hated that line. Felt very light and not loading the
road sufficiently..
We then tried a DT profile of the relevant rating on the same road and I
hated it two.. We could not shoot even a yard or two.
We then tackled my 15' 10/11 and practiced with my windcutter and although
my casts left to be desired, the difference was massive. At last we could
feel the road load and work. I find the timing is so critical in spey
casting, so is not to dip the fly line in the water when anchoring it.

It sounds as though the first two lines you used were under rated for
the rods they were being used with. I have often noticed that, when
selling a line and rod combination, retailers err on the side of
caution. Thus, a rod rated as handling lines rated 9 - 11 are often sold
with a 9 weight line.

The reason for this is obvious. The retailer probably has no idea just
how experianced a caster the customer is so supplies the line least
likely to damage to the rod should an attempt be made to lift too much
line off of the water.

In my experiance, most rods 'come alive' and cast much better with the
heaviest line the rod is rated for. And loading sooner, the shorter line
is generally more manageable and easier to handle, particularly for
beginners learning to cast.

Conclusions: still very confused as to whether I want to keep this oldish
line. It really only has fished for about 4 weeks even if I bought it in
2000. I would had that it was kept away from sun rays. Any views?

You should invest in some neoprene reel cases. They're cheap and protect
reels and lines from knocks and bumps, as well as from direct sunlight,
which is bound to do damage.

2nd comment: I am going away to Norway in July and can see that I will
probably end up nacked after one week of spey casting. I realize
strength is
not essential to good speycasting but still, casting a 15' is quite
demanding. "If your back hurts, my son, your technique is probably not
right". And indeed I find I probably put to much power into my forward
stroke.== this resulted one day in Ally Gowans suggesting to hold the road
with a circle grip: with thumb and 1st finger for both top and bottom hand.

Posture is very important when performing a cast. Only the arms,
shoulders and wrists should be used, not the upper body or back. To do
so is an indication of bad technique and you will pay for it with lower
back problems sooner or later. Though it is not always possible to do,
particularly when wading or standing on the steep sloping bank of a
river, it is important to try and get a good firm footing before you
cast, with the feet slightly apart and the pelvis more or less level.
Try not to use your back; it's a very common fault and a very difficult
habit to break once it becomes established.

Sorry if it sounds as though I'm stating the obvious, but bad footing
and posture are the commonest errors I have to deal with when going
through corrective casting procedures with an angler.

Your Norway trip will almost certainly be hard work, though also a lot
of fun. I hope you have a successful trip. If you have a history of back
problems - as I do - you might consider taking a velcro-fastening
support belt. They're light and unobtrusive and after a couple of
minutes you'll hardly know you're wearing it. And it will certainly help
to protect your back.

I fished the lower Brora yesterday. No joy. But I had the opportunity to
try out my new Airflo line. I was impressed, particularly as there was a
very stiff upstream breeze that served only to emphasise any
shortcomings in timing. Despite the strong wind the line performed well,
with an evidently good transfer of energy resulting in a crisp and
snappy turnover of both line tip and leader, even at extreme distance.
But it took a little time to get used to its foibles.

One of my companions was fishing with a Bruce and Walker 15ft 'Ghillie'.
It's a stiffish rod with a fast-actioned tip. Had there been more time,
I would very much have liked to have tried it with the Airflo line. I
suspect the line would perform better with a slightly stiffer rod. But
that's for another day.

--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

snip

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have just purchased my
first salmon rod and line.

As a complete beginner with a double handed rod its been a real maze to try
and get some kit. I orginally wanted to get to a shop and borrow some rods
and see which I prefered. Reality is as a complete novice with no casting
experience or style developed that I couldn't have chosen the right rod for
me anyway! In the end I decided to get a cheap rod, cheap reel and a cheap
line. All are of reasonable makes just discounted on the web somewhere and
the whole lot came to under a £100.

Plan now is some casting lessons, some practice and some fishing. When I get
to the point that I know what I want in a rod/line combination I'll make the
move.

Time will tell but thanks for the posts which have helped me make decisions.

Dave

The message
from "Dave P" contains these words:

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have just purchased my
first salmon rod and line.

I imagine you were sold a floating line with your rod, given the time of
year. It's a good line to start with, far better than a sunk line which,
depending upon the rate that it sinks, can be difficult for a beginner
to cast with.

As a complete beginner with a double handed rod its been a real maze to try
and get some kit. I originally wanted to get to a shop and borrow some rods
and see which I preferred. Reality is as a complete novice with no casting
experience or style developed that I couldn't have chosen the right rod for
me anyway! In the end I decided to get a cheap rod, cheap reel and a cheap
line. All are of reasonable makes just discounted on the web somewhere and
the whole lot came to under a £100.

I have seen some very good rod/reel combinations at bargain prices.
There's nothing wrong with budget tackle, just as long as everything is
balanced correctly and working in harmony. As you say, it would have
been useful for you to try out some different combinations, but it would
be even better with the guidance of an experienced salmon fisherman to
nudge you in the right direction. As a self-confessed novice, to do so
alone may just have complicated matters for you. However, if you made
your purchase from a reliable source, as I'm sure you did, chances are
you now own a perfectly serviceable salmon rod, reel and line.

Plan now is some casting lessons, some practice and some fishing. When
I get
to the point that I know what I want in a rod/line combination I'll
make the
move.

Roughly speaking, salmon fishing is divided into spring and
summer/autumn fishing. Spring fishing requires a 14ft plus rod to handle
heavy sunk lines and brass-bodied tube flies. The same rod and reel can
be used for low water summer fishing, but most salmon anglers use a
lighter rod when fishing for summer grisle and sea-trout. Personally, I
prefer a 15ft rod as I believe the fly can be controlled and worked much
better.

Time or money invested in casting lessons would probably be of great
benefit to you. Bad habits are easily picked up and are very difficult
to break once they become established.

An hour or two spent with a qualified instructor or someone experienced
enough to give you the required advice can make a world of difference.
Casting with a salmon rod isn't difficult; but it is a skill that has to
be learned. Better by far to be taught by someone who knows what they're
talking about.

Anyway, best of luck.

And just as an aside, for those that are interested, Airflo's Delta Spey
is quite a nice line. It took me a wee while to get used to the extra
long belly, but I quite like it now. There was a short spell when I was
becoming very unhappy with it as casting distance was suddenly
dramatically reduced. No matter what cast I used, the line kept hanging
up on the rings of the rod.

It turned out to be a manufacturing residue on the line. Far from being
the super slick coating it was advertised to be, I found it picked up
every bit of microscopic crap floating in the river, eventually
impairing and reducing casting distance by almost a third

I cleaned the line using Le Chameau's cleaning spray for natural rubber
boots and the difference was unbelievable. Now smooth and shiny, it
casts even better than when it was brand new. However, the line does
have a fault. As floaters go, it's a poor one, hanging well under the
surface in choppy, broken water. This makes mending when required much
more difficult, particularly at a distance.

But so far it's proved to be lucky line for me, with four fish banked
last week, and three in one day. :-)



--
Kim Sawyer
Sutherland
Scotland

In article , Kim Sawyer
writes
An hour or two spent with a qualified instructor or someone experienced
enough to give you the required advice can make a world of difference.
Casting with a salmon rod isn't difficult; but it is a skill that has to
be learned. Better by far to be taught by someone who knows what they're
talking about.

As Hywel Morgan points out, there would be better flyfishermen around
if everyone first learned to cast using a salmon rod. They would have to
learn to let the rod do the work and take their time. It would be no
use thrashing about trying to force the rod - it just won't work.

Casting is NOT difficult, the angler must /feel/ what's happening with
the line.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk