Terrorists on ROFF?

"Frank Reid" moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf wrote in message
...

Thank you and I mean that sincerely .... this country is so paranoid it
is
it's own worst enemy
snipped
--riverman

Hmmmm, you sure know a lot about our country for a Congolesian. Been
scopin' us out like ol' Bubba spottin' white tail preseason. Hm, Hm,
Hm... Got you figured out ri'chere.

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply
My deepest appreciation goes out to Tim J., Richard and Frank for doing
something
that really needed to be done by those with gravitas. My bleats as a
many-moons
lurker would have been without impact. So, I, and probably many others, do
thank you.
Jack Barnett

"Frank Reid" moc.deepselbac@diersicnarf wrote in message
...

Thank you and I mean that sincerely .... this country is so paranoid it
is
it's own worst enemy
snipped
--riverman

Hmmmm, you sure know a lot about our country for a Congolesian. Been
scopin' us out like ol' Bubba spottin' white tail preseason. Hm, Hm,
Hm... Got you figured out ri'chere.

--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply
My deepest appreciation goes out to Tim J., Richard and Frank for doing
something
that really needed to be done by those with gravitas. My bleats as a
many-moons
lurker would have been without impact. So, I, and probably many others, do
thank you.
Jack Barnett

In article ,
says...
And as to the polarization, IMO, you can put the majority of
responsibility for that solidly at the feet of the Clintons and company,
including esp. Terry McAuliffe.


Yeah, they had a lot of gall, going and getting elected and everything.
They were really mean to the right-wingers, especially when they got
re-elected. That was just plain mean.

Kevin

In article ,
says...
And as to the polarization, IMO, you can put the majority of
responsibility for that solidly at the feet of the Clintons and company,
including esp. Terry McAuliffe.


Yeah, they had a lot of gall, going and getting elected and everything.
They were really mean to the right-wingers, especially when they got
re-elected. That was just plain mean.

Kevin

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:43 -0500, Kevin Vang wrote:

In article ,
says...
And as to the polarization, IMO, you can put the majority of
responsibility for that solidly at the feet of the Clintons and company,
including esp. Terry McAuliffe.


Yeah, they had a lot of gall, going and getting elected and everything.

Didn't they though?

They were really mean to the right-wingers, especially when they got
re-elected.

Well, EXACTLY!

That was just plain mean.

RIGHT!

Of course, you could have just asked what exactly I meant, but I suppose
doing something crazy like that would be, well, crazy...

HTH,
R

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:09:43 -0500, Kevin Vang wrote:

In article ,
says...
And as to the polarization, IMO, you can put the majority of
responsibility for that solidly at the feet of the Clintons and company,
including esp. Terry McAuliffe.


Yeah, they had a lot of gall, going and getting elected and everything.

Didn't they though?

They were really mean to the right-wingers, especially when they got
re-elected.

Well, EXACTLY!

That was just plain mean.

RIGHT!

Of course, you could have just asked what exactly I meant, but I suppose
doing something crazy like that would be, well, crazy...

HTH,
R

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:34:03 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

And I'm even less sure that Americans are 'going about their daily lives'.
We just allowed a ton of personal freedoms to get compromised, we are
standing in lines for airplanes for 3-4 hours, we justify having a
president
who is alienating our country to many other parts of the world because he
'makes us feel safer at home' (and a lot of evidence shows that he is, in
acuality doing the opposite), we are rushing out to buy duct tape and
window
plastic, we are casting suspicious glances at any Arabs in our midst, we
no
longer travel around the world as freely as we used to, our economy is
being
dragged down by the largest military budget and the largest federal
deficit
in history, our country is being polarized worse than it ever has in our
countries history....exactly what about your 'daily life' is the same now
as
it was 5 years ago??

Just about everything...and I thought you now spent all (or most) of
your life in the Congo, England, wherever - not that there's anything
WRONG with that...seriously, though, being essentially an expat, all the
"we" and "our" stuff is perhaps not as meaningful as from someone in the
US on a day-to-day basis.

(Warning; this took on a definate soapbox tone.)

You have a point: I realize that my life as an expat is very different than
that of my countrymen, but I still visit there, and I hear from my friends
in the states; some speak of feeling the differences, many don't; but they
all say its a matter of looking for it and noticing it, or choosing not to.

For example, the US is now pretty deeply entangled in a few wars which are
not going particularly well according to some reports. The reality of those
wars is hard to deny and the effects touch every Americans life, but how
limited must someone choose to keep their vision to not feel any effect from
it? Bought gas lately? Watched the news? Had a conversation with someone
with kids under 16 who is wondering about all this chatter about a Draft?

Does anyone still feel the invasiveness of having their pockets and shoes
searched at airports? Have you got any optimism about having any room to
complain about that? Do you have a penknife keychain that you carry
everywhere, and felt that panic when you realized you forgot to leave it at
home? Have you tried flying with your flyrod lately? Or chosen an
international vacation destination? Have any non-expats (or whatever the
opposite of 'expat' is....pats?) ever had fleeting second thoughts about
what they might put in an email or say on the phone, since the PatAct was
passed?

Is anyone worried about the spiraling federal deficit, enhanced by the
largest military budget in history? It didn't have to be that way.

Are there any favorite fishing spots that you no longer go to with the same
ease you used to? Do you worry, ever, about 'looking suspicious' jumping a
fence or parking in the woods near some facility?

Then there are the more subtle things, the things that work on you beneath
the surface. Like: how have your own opinions of Arabs changed since the
war? I learned when I was a kid that prejudices rot you from inside and to
guard against it, and I suspect that many of my countrymen have let their
guard down about being influenced by prejudices. When I was in school and my
unworldy friends used to make slurs about "Aye-Rabs", I was comforted
knowing that their ignorance was in the minority, the effects of it limited
to just those guys in the boonies of Maine. Now, it haunts me to think that
mainstream society around me has moved in that direction, even an inch. You
don't think it affects you: remember when mentioning the Tigris and
Euphrates valley brought up images of the birthplace of Civilization? It
still is. Do you still feel the same way about Islam that you used to? When
you first heard that Cat Stevens was a Muslim, did you imagine that he was,
with his typical 'cool', exploring other religions. Do you still feel that
altruistic about him?

Remember 'Give me Liberty or Give Me Death', The Boston Tea Party,
America--Land of Freedom, the Pilgrim's pursuit of religous tolerance, and
the host of other cultural icons that defined our country to ourselves?
Regardless of the actuality of those events, we prided ourselves in our
vigor in guarding our personal freedoms vehemently, even *to the death*. By
accepting the Patriot Act and turning a blind eye to its effects on personal
liberties, even those of society as a whole or nameless others, we have
chosen to change our perceptions of our own ideals. That is definately an
effect on our daily lives.

Remember when we admired people who Took A Stand for what they believed in?
Remember "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your
right to say it"? Eaten any 'Freedom Fries' lately? Suddenly, France is the
butt of jokes and disdain because they had the audacity to voice a contrary
opinion, and many Americans don't even feel ashamed about that.

When you first read '1984', remember your reaction to the signs "Big Brother
is Watching?" The world could never get that bad, right? Now how do you feel
about those damned road signs on the beltway: "Heightened Homeland Security
Alert: Report Suspicious Activities". And what about that Patriot Act?

Remember when we used to pride ourselves on being a Great Nation, a role
model citizen of the world, and example of solid universal morals and
values? Now, we pride ourselves in being able to 'go it alone' and 'we don't
need the UN', and we will take what we want. What is the cultural value that
the children of America are growing up with? How do they view the future
role of America in the world? The anti-Bush sentiment has grown into
anti-American sentiment; it will definately affect the economics and
security of the US in the future. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

All of these are effects in our daily lives of our reaction to the 9/11
attacks. We could have chosen to react differently, and the effects would be
different. Choosing to ignore them, to feel like you are 'going about your
daily life' as usual may make it feel like nothing has changed in your life,
but it most definately has.

--riverman

(Soapbox mode off)

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:34:03 +0100, "riverman" wrote:

And I'm even less sure that Americans are 'going about their daily lives'.
We just allowed a ton of personal freedoms to get compromised, we are
standing in lines for airplanes for 3-4 hours, we justify having a
president
who is alienating our country to many other parts of the world because he
'makes us feel safer at home' (and a lot of evidence shows that he is, in
acuality doing the opposite), we are rushing out to buy duct tape and
window
plastic, we are casting suspicious glances at any Arabs in our midst, we
no
longer travel around the world as freely as we used to, our economy is
being
dragged down by the largest military budget and the largest federal
deficit
in history, our country is being polarized worse than it ever has in our
countries history....exactly what about your 'daily life' is the same now
as
it was 5 years ago??

Just about everything...and I thought you now spent all (or most) of
your life in the Congo, England, wherever - not that there's anything
WRONG with that...seriously, though, being essentially an expat, all the
"we" and "our" stuff is perhaps not as meaningful as from someone in the
US on a day-to-day basis.

(Warning; this took on a definate soapbox tone.)

You have a point: I realize that my life as an expat is very different than
that of my countrymen, but I still visit there, and I hear from my friends
in the states; some speak of feeling the differences, many don't; but they
all say its a matter of looking for it and noticing it, or choosing not to.

For example, the US is now pretty deeply entangled in a few wars which are
not going particularly well according to some reports. The reality of those
wars is hard to deny and the effects touch every Americans life, but how
limited must someone choose to keep their vision to not feel any effect from
it? Bought gas lately? Watched the news? Had a conversation with someone
with kids under 16 who is wondering about all this chatter about a Draft?

Does anyone still feel the invasiveness of having their pockets and shoes
searched at airports? Have you got any optimism about having any room to
complain about that? Do you have a penknife keychain that you carry
everywhere, and felt that panic when you realized you forgot to leave it at
home? Have you tried flying with your flyrod lately? Or chosen an
international vacation destination? Have any non-expats (or whatever the
opposite of 'expat' is....pats?) ever had fleeting second thoughts about
what they might put in an email or say on the phone, since the PatAct was
passed?

Is anyone worried about the spiraling federal deficit, enhanced by the
largest military budget in history? It didn't have to be that way.

Are there any favorite fishing spots that you no longer go to with the same
ease you used to? Do you worry, ever, about 'looking suspicious' jumping a
fence or parking in the woods near some facility?

Then there are the more subtle things, the things that work on you beneath
the surface. Like: how have your own opinions of Arabs changed since the
war? I learned when I was a kid that prejudices rot you from inside and to
guard against it, and I suspect that many of my countrymen have let their
guard down about being influenced by prejudices. When I was in school and my
unworldy friends used to make slurs about "Aye-Rabs", I was comforted
knowing that their ignorance was in the minority, the effects of it limited
to just those guys in the boonies of Maine. Now, it haunts me to think that
mainstream society around me has moved in that direction, even an inch. You
don't think it affects you: remember when mentioning the Tigris and
Euphrates valley brought up images of the birthplace of Civilization? It
still is. Do you still feel the same way about Islam that you used to? When
you first heard that Cat Stevens was a Muslim, did you imagine that he was,
with his typical 'cool', exploring other religions. Do you still feel that
altruistic about him?

Remember 'Give me Liberty or Give Me Death', The Boston Tea Party,
America--Land of Freedom, the Pilgrim's pursuit of religous tolerance, and
the host of other cultural icons that defined our country to ourselves?
Regardless of the actuality of those events, we prided ourselves in our
vigor in guarding our personal freedoms vehemently, even *to the death*. By
accepting the Patriot Act and turning a blind eye to its effects on personal
liberties, even those of society as a whole or nameless others, we have
chosen to change our perceptions of our own ideals. That is definately an
effect on our daily lives.

Remember when we admired people who Took A Stand for what they believed in?
Remember "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your
right to say it"? Eaten any 'Freedom Fries' lately? Suddenly, France is the
butt of jokes and disdain because they had the audacity to voice a contrary
opinion, and many Americans don't even feel ashamed about that.

When you first read '1984', remember your reaction to the signs "Big Brother
is Watching?" The world could never get that bad, right? Now how do you feel
about those damned road signs on the beltway: "Heightened Homeland Security
Alert: Report Suspicious Activities". And what about that Patriot Act?

Remember when we used to pride ourselves on being a Great Nation, a role
model citizen of the world, and example of solid universal morals and
values? Now, we pride ourselves in being able to 'go it alone' and 'we don't
need the UN', and we will take what we want. What is the cultural value that
the children of America are growing up with? How do they view the future
role of America in the world? The anti-Bush sentiment has grown into
anti-American sentiment; it will definately affect the economics and
security of the US in the future. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

All of these are effects in our daily lives of our reaction to the 9/11
attacks. We could have chosen to react differently, and the effects would be
different. Choosing to ignore them, to feel like you are 'going about your
daily life' as usual may make it feel like nothing has changed in your life,
but it most definately has.

--riverman

(Soapbox mode off)

"Tim J." wrote in message
...
Just about everything. I'm not sure what folks you hang around with that
are dis'ing Arabs and rushing out to buy saran wrap and duct tape, but
advise them to invest in tin foil hats instead. ;-)

I should have known this would turn into a political rant. My bad. I'll
bail out of this end of the thread and leave the empty soapbox for you.
--
TL,
Tim

Lucky for you that you don't live in the heart of the southern bible-belt. I work
with folks who state that we ought to just nuke all them towelheads and let god sort
it out, and they are serious a heart-attacks! They say things like: "if I found out
that any of my kids was a queer, I'd kill them myself."

Just the other day a guy came into our shop from the shop next to us with a list of
Senators and Representatives who oppose a constitutional amendment to ban gay
marriages. He claimed that all on the list supported queers getting MARRIED. When I
pointed out that to him that not all necessarily supported gay marriage, but opposed a
constitutional amendment to ban such unions, he was adamant that the list's heading
said they supported queers gettin' married. To him, it didn't matter. If they didn't
support the amendment, they supported gay marriage. Strangely enough, the guy says,
unfortunately, most the people on the list are Democrats?

I have had folks tell me that the blade on my lawnmower hit a rock and was bent
because I was mowing on Sunday. Of course, it's no problem mowing on the Jewish
Sabbath.

Mark

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:09:39 +0100, "riverman" wrote:


(Warning; this took on a definate soapbox tone.)

No problem, at least for me...I don't have the time today to respond to
what you obviously took the time to think about and write, so I'll just
acknowledge it and hope to have the time to respond sometime over the
weekend.

Snipped everything, but only to save space

TC,
R