A Fishing forum. FishingBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » FishingBanter forum » rec.outdoors.fishing newsgroups » General Discussion
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old February 28th, 2006, 01:31 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

Lawrence_Glickman wrote:

Joshua Putnam wrote:
Lawrence_Glickman wrote:

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.

I will need a biology microscope to investigate the exact nature of
the material collected as *precipitate,* or it can be removed, dried,
then burned and its' color spectrum analyzed for materials present. I
will never have enough $ for the spectrum analyzer, but I might be
able to borrow a bio microscope.



Ever consider taking a properly-bottled sample to a competent testing
lab that already owns the necessary equipment for a far more accurate
analysis than you're likely to achieve at home?


I know what is in the drinking water as far as the Village is willing
to release to the public. They sent me ( as a homeowner ) an analysis
a while back but for the life of me I can't find it at the moment.
IIRC, it passed muster IMO, so maybe I tossed it.

Did that at a previous hom because of exactly this sort of brown
precipitate issue, and it was indeed simply a very high iron
concentration. Turned out that beautiful light-gray sand our aquifer
ran through was so high in iron that the sand would rust and turn
brown if exposed to air for a few weeks.


Well, iron is a necessary mineral for any healthy person, up to a
point. Beyond that point, it becomes a POISON. 18 ( eighteen )
milligrams of Iron is accepted as the recommended daily allowance for
one each adult human. Beyond that, you're asking for trouble.

Also, the presence of bacteria in general won't confirm fecal
origins, there are bacteria that thrive on dissolved iron in wells
like that. A water district on the same aquifer had to repeatedly
hoist and clean their well filters because the iron-loving bacteria
would plug the intake filters. Zero coliform count, just lots of
bacteria, and lots of iron.


Actually, I read somewhere that it is a GOOD IDEA to let algae grow on
your sediment prefilter, as this somehow helps in the water
purification process. I don't remember the exact mechanism for this.
I do know that I let algae ( green ) grown on my sediment pre-filter
and do not *worry* about it contaminating anything. In fact, it helps
in the cleansing process.

I do still want a bio microscope though. I've been looking for an
unwanted/unused one for years, but no luck to date. The ones on e-bay
are to rich for my blood. Using polarized contrast-phase lighting,
you can view LIVE specimines without killing them.

So in summary, there are 2 kinds of pollutants:
organic
inorganic ( chemicals )

Both can hurt you. Cryptosporidium closed down the Milwaukee
Wisconsin water supply not to many years ago. There was a boil order
in effect for many days befor that was brought under control. Did you
know that as few as 3 to 5 Giardia Lamblia cysts can cause Giardiasis?
Explosive diarrhea. The kind that can dehydrate and kill you if you
don't get the correct medicines in time ( Flagyl, etc. ) in the right
doses. I know of someone who went to Mexico and ended up spending
over a month in hospital for treatment of Giardia Lamblia infection.

Then there are the otherwise unexplained brain cancers, liver cancers,
bowel cancers...I don't rule out the water supply as a contributor to
these killers.

Belittle it all you like. Drink UP! Down the hatch...that a boy.
Good Fella! My that was tasty wasn't it?

Lg


good morning Lawrence. people for a long time have made themselves
happy with thinking how their government loves them, takes care of
them and puts their well being first and foremost above all. me,
I've known for a long time how the government is a bunch of liars who
steal, lie, cheat and work from behind closed doors in order to maintain
their privileged class existence at the expense of the [tax paying module].
understanding of how the [tax paying module] has been placed at the bottom
of the food chain by the government sheds light onto the truth concerning
just how much the government really cares. government plays a nice lip
service to the lowly [tax paying module] with nice catch phrases such as,
The Clean Air and Water Act, and another catch phrase known as Super Fund.

there are two kinds of contaminates in the drinking water supply, chemical
and organic. both got into the water supply by man's own carelessness and
neglect for what is actually the right thing to do. forever industry has
taken the less expensive route of dumping the chemical and heavy metals
waste with the least cost possible to itself. usually this means out the
back door and onto the ground and without containment of any sort rain
run off carries these contaminates into the ground water supply.

cities such as Raleigh NC which have experienced unreal growth as a
result of everyone in the universe wanting to live there can't keep
up with the demands placed on their human sewage treatment facilities
resulting in overflows. sometimes reported as spills they are
necessary to keep the city running and provide for the need of people
to release their excrement.

it is a sad state of existence we find ourselves in today on this
earth as a result of the greed of many who would abuse others for
their own gain. with government bought and paid for by the wealthy
controlling privileged class, there is little hope of anything
changing for the good of the financially challenged members of
mankind known to the government as the [tax paying module].

people don't like being shown how they've been used and abused for
years. the revealing causes those who have been used to enter into
a state of denial whereby they are compelled to reject any notion
of any other human having abused them. from a sociological stand
point all humans are driven to expound with vigorous argument
constructed from elaborate detail of how they are in charge of their
destiny and in possession of a greater understanding of all matters
than any of their competing fellow inhabitants. for this reason
whenever one human makes an attempt to explain to other humans there
will always be rejection for the explanation.


the drinking water is polluted. man did it. man now gets to live
with that.
  #22  
Old February 28th, 2006, 02:12 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

Lawrence_Glickman wrote:


Belittle it all you like. Drink UP! Down the hatch...that a boy.
Good Fella! My that was tasty wasn't it?


I had a friend like you, but he also sold a very high priced water
filters door to door.

He died a few years back,, a truck hit his car, and killed him, while he
was going to save another family's life with a new water filter.

Selling water filters, is what killed him.


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com
  #23  
Old February 28th, 2006, 05:17 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe


I do still want a bio microscope though. I've been looking for an
unwanted/unused one for years, but no luck to date. The ones on e-bay
are to rich for my blood. Using polarized contrast-phase lighting,
you can view LIVE specimines without killing them.


Try American Science and Surplus (www.sciplus.com)
They've got a nice-sounding 0060-1500X binocular microscope
for only about $600.

(there's cheaper ones too, down to about $130,
but that's the nice one)
  #24  
Old February 28th, 2006, 07:05 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

You're correct, of course, Don. To someone with lots of industrial
water treatment experience such as myself, this guy comes across as a
raving lunatic who has managed to find a water treatment glossary
somewhere and is randomly picking words to use.

The fact is, unless someone is ****ting in yer well, fecal matter does
NOT add color to water. The dilution is simply too high. The
detection method for fecal matter in water is the coliform bacteria
that always accompanies it. Bacteria can be cultured until it has
multiplied enough to be observable. The fecal matter itself cannot
be.

Moreover, if there is excess chlorine in the water, an EPA
requirement, whatever is there is sterile. If any of what this lid
says is true, most likely the sediment is carry-over from the
floctreater. Muddy water is first treated with a floculating agent
(alum is the most common) that causes the suspended matter to
agglomerate into gelatinous masses that are easily removed by the
subsequent sand filter.

Sometimes this matter carries over during filter backflush or
malfunction. Though it looks bad because it is mud-colored, it is
harmless to humans.

Don, your theory of sediment/rust in the system is also likely. In
oversized feeders, the water velocity is low enough that traces of
rust and sediment settle out. When something causes high velocity
flow, say a fire or periodic flushings, the sediment is re-suspended
and tints the water reddish orange to brown. Again, it is harmless,
though it looks bad.

The EPA's water quality standards which every water district must
adhere to, requires the water turbidity, dissolved solids, dissolved
oxygen and chlorine to be continuously monitored with on-line
instruments. Previously via alarming strip-chart recorders and now
more commonly computerized data logging systems. In addition,
manually analyzed samples must be taken several times a shift and
compared to the on-line monitoring as both validation calibration.
Organic matter is also analyzed during these batch samples.

The permissible levels of dissolved solids (including the evil,
dastardly "heavy metals") and organic matter are so low as to be
silly, orders of magnitude below that which causes any harm. Anyone
wondering why his water bill has skyrocketed over the past few years,
well there you go.

Also correct, Don, is the observation that man wasn't created and
doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a sea of organisms, only a tiny
proportion of which cause us any problems. That's what our immune
systems are for.

I wonder if this guys who's so phobic about something brown in his
water is equally phobic of actual turds in various delicacies. After
all, things like shrimp, lobster and other shellfish are eaten with
their digestive tracts AND their turds intact. Sterilized by cooking
in some cases, others such as raw oysters, not.

I've developed a theory that this guy tends to validate. My theory is
that some (many?) people have a mental flaw that demands there be a
certain constant level of (dis)stress in their lives. Absent real
problems, they make up things and/or believe the wildly improbable.
Witness the phobias about such things as individual atoms of allegedly
"bad" metals, for example. Back during my childhood, typhoid
outbreaks still closed public places and the disease sometimes showed
up in municipal water systems. Now all those awful water-borne
diseases are conquered so some people have to make up stuff to fulfill
their stress quotients.

The utter destruction of the educational system over the past few
decades undoubtedly plays a major part. After all, when people have
no real experience or education in the sciences, they tend to believe
patently absurd things such as little handheld explosives blowing up
entire blocks and cars always exploding into fireballs when shot. And
of course, the unknown and invisible but teeming critters and
substances, all conspiring to harm those who Truly Believe(TM)

Americans have never had safer food and water, better medical care,
safer or longer lives in the history of man and yet some people still
work themselves into froths over imaginary "dangers". I think my
theory is on the verge of becoming an immutable law.

John

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:47:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Lawrence
Glickman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:08:21 -0500, Jim Ledford
wrote:

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

[....]

Jim Ledford wrote:

snip

I LOL
at how Chicago dumps their treated sewage in the same lake
they take their drinking water from.

[....]

I would know, as I did the experiment.
I took tap water from lake Michigan and filled a tall clear bottle
with it. I then put it in a place where it wouldn't be disturbed for
72 hours. After that time, I took the bottle and looked at the
bottom, where a thick brown sediment had settled. My best guess is
that is human fecal material at the bottom of the bottle.

Invisible at first because it is in suspension, but given the
opportunity for gravity to work on it, the accumulation is quite
pronounced, and of the appropriate brown color.

As far as dissolved chemicals are concerned, they remained in
solution. I attack both problems with sediment and activated carbon
filters. I know someone who died from cancer...her doctor said it was
most likely from drinking the water ( Steger Illinois, which I think
is/was wellwater until we got a feed from Lake Michigan through a
Chicago Heights distribution station ).

In summary, I would not feed tap water to a stray DOG, without first
filtering it through sediment and activated carbon/charcoal filters to
remove _most_ of the impurities. There remains the *heavy metals*
problem, but those filters are way way expensive. Activated
carbon/charcoal with a pre-filter for sediment provides a Good Return
on Investment (ROI). I have two of them in series, for drinking water
purposes only.

Nobody at this house drinks water from any source that isn't first
filtered with my own equipment.

Lg
Chicago ( far South Side )

Lg - smart person, good job for your work.


Thanks Jim,

Here is my response to those that think I was looking at IRON
precipitate.*

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.


I surely doubt any of the Great Lakes have that much feces, human or
cattle or pig or total in any way!

I do suspect you overestimated the thickness of the sediment layer,
especially as averaged over the bottom surface of the container. But even
if it was only .02 or .01 inch thick if made even in thickness, I don't
see any of the Great Lakes having that much poop even if all the cowpies
from Wisconsin and all the sewage and dog poop, cat poop, rat poop, mouse
poop and roach poop and flyspecks from Chicago and its suburbs and poop
from all livestock in Chicago's stockyards got dumped into Lake Michigan
with no treatment.

I suspect most of this stuff is iron compounds and ordinary dirt.

Also, I do not see a need for zero tolerance of fecal matter in water
but some sort of "safe level". Humans evolved in areas where I doubt they
were upstream of every fish in the nearest creek, as well as runoff from
land pooped on by animals let alone the next village upstream!

- Don Klipstein )

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
  #25  
Old February 28th, 2006, 10:05 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:17:36 -0500, Goedjn wrote:


I do still want a bio microscope though. I've been looking for an
unwanted/unused one for years, but no luck to date. The ones on e-bay
are to rich for my blood. Using polarized contrast-phase lighting,
you can view LIVE specimines without killing them.


Try American Science and Surplus (www.sciplus.com)
They've got a nice-sounding 0060-1500X binocular microscope
for only about $600.

(there's cheaper ones too, down to about $130,
but that's the nice one)


Excellent Goedin. BTW, does uri.edu stand for University of Rhode
Island? I attended school there at one time at the Providence, R.I.
extension, and -that- is where I studied invertebrate zoology. Quite
challenging and rewarding. Very challenging. But not quite as bad as
"logic" class. Do you know how to read heiroglyphs? You will if you
make it through "logic" class ;(

Here is my choice:
Microscope 90197
and if I go for the Full Monte...
phase contrast enhancement kit 14385

"Somewhere, over the rainbow, Blue Birds sing...."
I'm dreaming again.... I will be happy to have the 90197 by itself,
but the 14385 makes it so much more useful.

Lg

  #26  
Old February 28th, 2006, 10:15 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:

You're correct, of course, Don. To someone with lots of industrial
water treatment experience such as myself, this guy comes across as a
raving lunatic who has managed to find a water treatment glossary
somewhere and is randomly picking words to use.

The fact is, unless someone is ****ting in yer well, fecal matter does
NOT add color to water. The dilution is simply too high. The
detection method for fecal matter in water is the coliform bacteria
that always accompanies it. Bacteria can be cultured until it has
multiplied enough to be observable. The fecal matter itself cannot
be.

Moreover, if there is excess chlorine in the water, an EPA
requirement, whatever is there is sterile. If any of what this lid
says is true, most likely the sediment is carry-over from the
floctreater. Muddy water is first treated with a floculating agent
(alum is the most common) that causes the suspended matter to
agglomerate into gelatinous masses that are easily removed by the
subsequent sand filter.

Sometimes this matter carries over during filter backflush or
malfunction. Though it looks bad because it is mud-colored, it is
harmless to humans.

Don, your theory of sediment/rust in the system is also likely. In
oversized feeders, the water velocity is low enough that traces of
rust and sediment settle out. When something causes high velocity
flow, say a fire or periodic flushings, the sediment is re-suspended
and tints the water reddish orange to brown. Again, it is harmless,
though it looks bad.

The EPA's water quality standards which every water district must
adhere to, requires the water turbidity, dissolved solids, dissolved
oxygen and chlorine to be continuously monitored with on-line
instruments. Previously via alarming strip-chart recorders and now
more commonly computerized data logging systems. In addition,
manually analyzed samples must be taken several times a shift and
compared to the on-line monitoring as both validation calibration.
Organic matter is also analyzed during these batch samples.

The permissible levels of dissolved solids (including the evil,
dastardly "heavy metals") and organic matter are so low as to be
silly, orders of magnitude below that which causes any harm. Anyone
wondering why his water bill has skyrocketed over the past few years,
well there you go.

Also correct, Don, is the observation that man wasn't created and
doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a sea of organisms, only a tiny
proportion of which cause us any problems. That's what our immune
systems are for.

I wonder if this guys who's so phobic about something brown in his
water is equally phobic of actual turds in various delicacies. After
all, things like shrimp, lobster and other shellfish are eaten with
their digestive tracts AND their turds intact. Sterilized by cooking
in some cases, others such as raw oysters, not.


================================================== =========
I've developed a theory that this guy tends to validate. My theory is
that some (many?) people have a mental flaw that demands there be a
certain constant level of (dis)stress in their lives.


Here we go with the ad hominum. Quite to be expected from the likes
of Neon John. Standard operating procedure.

Absent real
problems,


You are a *real* problem.

they make up things and/or believe the wildly improbable.
Witness the phobias about such things as individual atoms of allegedly
"bad" metals, for example. Back during my childhood, typhoid
outbreaks still closed public places and the disease sometimes showed
up in municipal water systems. Now all those awful water-borne
diseases are conquered so some people have to make up stuff to fulfill
their stress quotients.


Your argument doesn't hold water.

The utter destruction of the educational system over the past few
decades undoubtedly plays a major part.


I'm 60 years old, and was formally educated before calculators were
invented to help you add two columns of numbers.

After all, when people have
no real experience or education in the sciences,


That's a LIE John. What are your academic credentials? Finish High
School did you? I spent 5 years in college, and no they were not all
in the same classroom.

rest of Neon John's psychosis ignored

Lg


they tend to believe
patently absurd things such as little handheld explosives blowing up
entire blocks and cars always exploding into fireballs when shot. And
of course, the unknown and invisible but teeming critters and
substances, all conspiring to harm those who Truly Believe(TM)

Americans have never had safer food and water, better medical care,
safer or longer lives in the history of man and yet some people still
work themselves into froths over imaginary "dangers". I think my
theory is on the verge of becoming an immutable law.

John

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:47:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Lawrence
Glickman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:08:21 -0500, Jim Ledford
wrote:

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

[....]

Jim Ledford wrote:

snip

I LOL
at how Chicago dumps their treated sewage in the same lake
they take their drinking water from.

[....]

I would know, as I did the experiment.
I took tap water from lake Michigan and filled a tall clear bottle
with it. I then put it in a place where it wouldn't be disturbed for
72 hours. After that time, I took the bottle and looked at the
bottom, where a thick brown sediment had settled. My best guess is
that is human fecal material at the bottom of the bottle.

Invisible at first because it is in suspension, but given the
opportunity for gravity to work on it, the accumulation is quite
pronounced, and of the appropriate brown color.

As far as dissolved chemicals are concerned, they remained in
solution. I attack both problems with sediment and activated carbon
filters. I know someone who died from cancer...her doctor said it was
most likely from drinking the water ( Steger Illinois, which I think
is/was wellwater until we got a feed from Lake Michigan through a
Chicago Heights distribution station ).

In summary, I would not feed tap water to a stray DOG, without first
filtering it through sediment and activated carbon/charcoal filters to
remove _most_ of the impurities. There remains the *heavy metals*
problem, but those filters are way way expensive. Activated
carbon/charcoal with a pre-filter for sediment provides a Good Return
on Investment (ROI). I have two of them in series, for drinking water
purposes only.

Nobody at this house drinks water from any source that isn't first
filtered with my own equipment.

Lg
Chicago ( far South Side )

Lg - smart person, good job for your work.

Thanks Jim,

Here is my response to those that think I was looking at IRON
precipitate.*

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.


I surely doubt any of the Great Lakes have that much feces, human or
cattle or pig or total in any way!

I do suspect you overestimated the thickness of the sediment layer,
especially as averaged over the bottom surface of the container. But even
if it was only .02 or .01 inch thick if made even in thickness, I don't
see any of the Great Lakes having that much poop even if all the cowpies
from Wisconsin and all the sewage and dog poop, cat poop, rat poop, mouse
poop and roach poop and flyspecks from Chicago and its suburbs and poop
from all livestock in Chicago's stockyards got dumped into Lake Michigan
with no treatment.

I suspect most of this stuff is iron compounds and ordinary dirt.

Also, I do not see a need for zero tolerance of fecal matter in water
but some sort of "safe level". Humans evolved in areas where I doubt they
were upstream of every fish in the nearest creek, as well as runoff from
land pooped on by animals let alone the next village upstream!

- Don Klipstein )

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson


  #27  
Old February 28th, 2006, 10:20 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:

All the below is TRASH Neon John. Somewhat like your
self-congratulatory self...rubbish.

Do you know about fertilizer runoff? Do you KNOW that commercial
fisheries are disallowed from harvesting ANYTHING from Lake Michigan
because it is so contaminated with carcinogens? Look it up, Banjo
Boy, before you open your fat mouth again on this newsgroup.

FACT:
fish in Lake Michigan are not fit for Human Consumption because of
high concentrations of toxins from the water.

FACT:
Commercial fisheries are prohibited from harvesting marine life from
Lake Michigan because of the above.

FACT:
Many of these fish show mutations such as multiple eyes and fins where
they are not supposed to be, along with cancerous tumors all over
their bodies.

FACT:
They got this way by drinking Lake Michigan water.

CONCLUSION:
Neon John is full of ****, and nothing more than a rabid, foaming at
the mouth denier.

Lg



You're correct, of course, Don. To someone with lots of industrial
water treatment experience such as myself, this guy comes across as a
raving lunatic who has managed to find a water treatment glossary
somewhere and is randomly picking words to use.

The fact is, unless someone is ****ting in yer well, fecal matter does
NOT add color to water. The dilution is simply too high. The
detection method for fecal matter in water is the coliform bacteria
that always accompanies it. Bacteria can be cultured until it has
multiplied enough to be observable. The fecal matter itself cannot
be.

Moreover, if there is excess chlorine in the water, an EPA
requirement, whatever is there is sterile. If any of what this lid
says is true, most likely the sediment is carry-over from the
floctreater. Muddy water is first treated with a floculating agent
(alum is the most common) that causes the suspended matter to
agglomerate into gelatinous masses that are easily removed by the
subsequent sand filter.

Sometimes this matter carries over during filter backflush or
malfunction. Though it looks bad because it is mud-colored, it is
harmless to humans.

Don, your theory of sediment/rust in the system is also likely. In
oversized feeders, the water velocity is low enough that traces of
rust and sediment settle out. When something causes high velocity
flow, say a fire or periodic flushings, the sediment is re-suspended
and tints the water reddish orange to brown. Again, it is harmless,
though it looks bad.

The EPA's water quality standards which every water district must
adhere to, requires the water turbidity, dissolved solids, dissolved
oxygen and chlorine to be continuously monitored with on-line
instruments. Previously via alarming strip-chart recorders and now
more commonly computerized data logging systems. In addition,
manually analyzed samples must be taken several times a shift and
compared to the on-line monitoring as both validation calibration.
Organic matter is also analyzed during these batch samples.

The permissible levels of dissolved solids (including the evil,
dastardly "heavy metals") and organic matter are so low as to be
silly, orders of magnitude below that which causes any harm. Anyone
wondering why his water bill has skyrocketed over the past few years,
well there you go.

Also correct, Don, is the observation that man wasn't created and
doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a sea of organisms, only a tiny
proportion of which cause us any problems. That's what our immune
systems are for.

I wonder if this guys who's so phobic about something brown in his
water is equally phobic of actual turds in various delicacies. After
all, things like shrimp, lobster and other shellfish are eaten with
their digestive tracts AND their turds intact. Sterilized by cooking
in some cases, others such as raw oysters, not.

I've developed a theory that this guy tends to validate. My theory is
that some (many?) people have a mental flaw that demands there be a
certain constant level of (dis)stress in their lives. Absent real
problems, they make up things and/or believe the wildly improbable.
Witness the phobias about such things as individual atoms of allegedly
"bad" metals, for example. Back during my childhood, typhoid
outbreaks still closed public places and the disease sometimes showed
up in municipal water systems. Now all those awful water-borne
diseases are conquered so some people have to make up stuff to fulfill
their stress quotients.

The utter destruction of the educational system over the past few
decades undoubtedly plays a major part. After all, when people have
no real experience or education in the sciences, they tend to believe
patently absurd things such as little handheld explosives blowing up
entire blocks and cars always exploding into fireballs when shot. And
of course, the unknown and invisible but teeming critters and
substances, all conspiring to harm those who Truly Believe(TM)

Americans have never had safer food and water, better medical care,
safer or longer lives in the history of man and yet some people still
work themselves into froths over imaginary "dangers". I think my
theory is on the verge of becoming an immutable law.

John

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:47:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Lawrence
Glickman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:08:21 -0500, Jim Ledford
wrote:

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

[....]

Jim Ledford wrote:

snip

I LOL
at how Chicago dumps their treated sewage in the same lake
they take their drinking water from.

[....]

I would know, as I did the experiment.
I took tap water from lake Michigan and filled a tall clear bottle
with it. I then put it in a place where it wouldn't be disturbed for
72 hours. After that time, I took the bottle and looked at the
bottom, where a thick brown sediment had settled. My best guess is
that is human fecal material at the bottom of the bottle.

Invisible at first because it is in suspension, but given the
opportunity for gravity to work on it, the accumulation is quite
pronounced, and of the appropriate brown color.

As far as dissolved chemicals are concerned, they remained in
solution. I attack both problems with sediment and activated carbon
filters. I know someone who died from cancer...her doctor said it was
most likely from drinking the water ( Steger Illinois, which I think
is/was wellwater until we got a feed from Lake Michigan through a
Chicago Heights distribution station ).

In summary, I would not feed tap water to a stray DOG, without first
filtering it through sediment and activated carbon/charcoal filters to
remove _most_ of the impurities. There remains the *heavy metals*
problem, but those filters are way way expensive. Activated
carbon/charcoal with a pre-filter for sediment provides a Good Return
on Investment (ROI). I have two of them in series, for drinking water
purposes only.

Nobody at this house drinks water from any source that isn't first
filtered with my own equipment.

Lg
Chicago ( far South Side )

Lg - smart person, good job for your work.

Thanks Jim,

Here is my response to those that think I was looking at IRON
precipitate.*

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.


I surely doubt any of the Great Lakes have that much feces, human or
cattle or pig or total in any way!

I do suspect you overestimated the thickness of the sediment layer,
especially as averaged over the bottom surface of the container. But even
if it was only .02 or .01 inch thick if made even in thickness, I don't
see any of the Great Lakes having that much poop even if all the cowpies
from Wisconsin and all the sewage and dog poop, cat poop, rat poop, mouse
poop and roach poop and flyspecks from Chicago and its suburbs and poop
from all livestock in Chicago's stockyards got dumped into Lake Michigan
with no treatment.

I suspect most of this stuff is iron compounds and ordinary dirt.

Also, I do not see a need for zero tolerance of fecal matter in water
but some sort of "safe level". Humans evolved in areas where I doubt they
were upstream of every fish in the nearest creek, as well as runoff from
land pooped on by animals let alone the next village upstream!

- Don Klipstein )

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson


  #28  
Old February 28th, 2006, 10:28 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

Do you suppose this guy smokes?

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Glickman ]
Posted At: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:20 PM
Posted To: fishing
Conversation: Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe
Subject: Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:

All the below is TRASH Neon John. Somewhat like your
self-congratulatory self...rubbish.

Do you know about fertilizer runoff? Do you KNOW that commercial
fisheries are disallowed from harvesting ANYTHING from Lake Michigan
because it is so contaminated with carcinogens? Look it up, Banjo
Boy, before you open your fat mouth again on this newsgroup.

FACT:
fish in Lake Michigan are not fit for Human Consumption because of
high concentrations of toxins from the water.

FACT:
Commercial fisheries are prohibited from harvesting marine life from
Lake Michigan because of the above.

FACT:
Many of these fish show mutations such as multiple eyes and fins where
they are not supposed to be, along with cancerous tumors all over
their bodies.

FACT:
They got this way by drinking Lake Michigan water.

CONCLUSION:
Neon John is full of ****, and nothing more than a rabid, foaming at
the mouth denier.

Lg



You're correct, of course, Don. To someone with lots of industrial
water treatment experience such as myself, this guy comes across as a
raving lunatic who has managed to find a water treatment glossary
somewhere and is randomly picking words to use.

The fact is, unless someone is ****ting in yer well, fecal matter does
NOT add color to water. The dilution is simply too high. The
detection method for fecal matter in water is the coliform bacteria
that always accompanies it. Bacteria can be cultured until it has
multiplied enough to be observable. The fecal matter itself cannot
be.

Moreover, if there is excess chlorine in the water, an EPA
requirement, whatever is there is sterile. If any of what this lid
says is true, most likely the sediment is carry-over from the
floctreater. Muddy water is first treated with a floculating agent
(alum is the most common) that causes the suspended matter to
agglomerate into gelatinous masses that are easily removed by the
subsequent sand filter.

Sometimes this matter carries over during filter backflush or
malfunction. Though it looks bad because it is mud-colored, it is
harmless to humans.

Don, your theory of sediment/rust in the system is also likely. In
oversized feeders, the water velocity is low enough that traces of
rust and sediment settle out. When something causes high velocity
flow, say a fire or periodic flushings, the sediment is re-suspended
and tints the water reddish orange to brown. Again, it is harmless,
though it looks bad.

The EPA's water quality standards which every water district must
adhere to, requires the water turbidity, dissolved solids, dissolved
oxygen and chlorine to be continuously monitored with on-line
instruments. Previously via alarming strip-chart recorders and now
more commonly computerized data logging systems. In addition,
manually analyzed samples must be taken several times a shift and
compared to the on-line monitoring as both validation calibration.
Organic matter is also analyzed during these batch samples.

The permissible levels of dissolved solids (including the evil,
dastardly "heavy metals") and organic matter are so low as to be
silly, orders of magnitude below that which causes any harm. Anyone
wondering why his water bill has skyrocketed over the past few years,
well there you go.

Also correct, Don, is the observation that man wasn't created and
doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a sea of organisms, only a tiny
proportion of which cause us any problems. That's what our immune
systems are for.

I wonder if this guys who's so phobic about something brown in his
water is equally phobic of actual turds in various delicacies. After
all, things like shrimp, lobster and other shellfish are eaten with
their digestive tracts AND their turds intact. Sterilized by cooking
in some cases, others such as raw oysters, not.

I've developed a theory that this guy tends to validate. My theory is
that some (many?) people have a mental flaw that demands there be a
certain constant level of (dis)stress in their lives. Absent real
problems, they make up things and/or believe the wildly improbable.
Witness the phobias about such things as individual atoms of allegedly
"bad" metals, for example. Back during my childhood, typhoid
outbreaks still closed public places and the disease sometimes showed
up in municipal water systems. Now all those awful water-borne
diseases are conquered so some people have to make up stuff to fulfill
their stress quotients.

The utter destruction of the educational system over the past few
decades undoubtedly plays a major part. After all, when people have
no real experience or education in the sciences, they tend to believe
patently absurd things such as little handheld explosives blowing up
entire blocks and cars always exploding into fireballs when shot. And
of course, the unknown and invisible but teeming critters and
substances, all conspiring to harm those who Truly Believe(TM)

Americans have never had safer food and water, better medical care,
safer or longer lives in the history of man and yet some people still
work themselves into froths over imaginary "dangers". I think my
theory is on the verge of becoming an immutable law.

John

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:47:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Lawrence
Glickman wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:08:21 -0500, Jim Ledford


wrote:

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

[....]

Jim Ledford wrote:

snip

I LOL
at how Chicago dumps their treated sewage in the same lake
they take their drinking water from.

[....]

I would know, as I did the experiment.
I took tap water from lake Michigan and filled a tall clear bottle
with it. I then put it in a place where it wouldn't be disturbed

for
72 hours. After that time, I took the bottle and looked at the
bottom, where a thick brown sediment had settled. My best guess

is
that is human fecal material at the bottom of the bottle.

Invisible at first because it is in suspension, but given the
opportunity for gravity to work on it, the accumulation is quite
pronounced, and of the appropriate brown color.

As far as dissolved chemicals are concerned, they remained in
solution. I attack both problems with sediment and activated

carbon
filters. I know someone who died from cancer...her doctor said it

was
most likely from drinking the water ( Steger Illinois, which I

think
is/was wellwater until we got a feed from Lake Michigan through a
Chicago Heights distribution station ).

In summary, I would not feed tap water to a stray DOG, without

first
filtering it through sediment and activated carbon/charcoal

filters to
remove _most_ of the impurities. There remains the *heavy metals*
problem, but those filters are way way expensive. Activated
carbon/charcoal with a pre-filter for sediment provides a Good

Return
on Investment (ROI). I have two of them in series, for drinking

water
purposes only.

Nobody at this house drinks water from any source that isn't first
filtered with my own equipment.

Lg
Chicago ( far South Side )

Lg - smart person, good job for your work.

Thanks Jim,

Here is my response to those that think I was looking at IRON
precipitate.*

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF IRON! We're talking 1/16th deep LAYER of
this *stuff.* If it is human feces, it is _dead_ human feces, but
feces none the less.


I surely doubt any of the Great Lakes have that much feces, human or


cattle or pig or total in any way!

I do suspect you overestimated the thickness of the sediment layer,
especially as averaged over the bottom surface of the container. But

even
if it was only .02 or .01 inch thick if made even in thickness, I

don't
see any of the Great Lakes having that much poop even if all the

cowpies
from Wisconsin and all the sewage and dog poop, cat poop, rat poop,

mouse
poop and roach poop and flyspecks from Chicago and its suburbs and

poop
from all livestock in Chicago's stockyards got dumped into Lake

Michigan
with no treatment.

I suspect most of this stuff is iron compounds and ordinary dirt.

Also, I do not see a need for zero tolerance of fecal matter in

water
but some sort of "safe level". Humans evolved in areas where I doubt

they
were upstream of every fish in the nearest creek, as well as runoff

from
land pooped on by animals let alone the next village upstream!

- Don Klipstein )

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo

Emerson

  #29  
Old February 28th, 2006, 11:18 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

Lawrence Glickman wrote in :

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:


All the below is TRASH Neon John. Somewhat like your
self-congratulatory self...rubbish.


Do you know about fertilizer runoff? Do you KNOW that commercial
fisheries are disallowed from harvesting ANYTHING from Lake Michigan
because it is so contaminated with carcinogens? Look it up, Banjo
Boy, before you open your fat mouth again on this newsgroup.


FACT:
fish in Lake Michigan are not fit for Human Consumption because of
high concentrations of toxins from the water.


FACT:
Commercial fisheries are prohibited from harvesting marine life from
Lake Michigan because of the above.


I think you better alert the commercial fishing boats about it!

snip rant

I decided to take a look for myself, and this is some of what I found.

"Bottom trawl nets are presently used on Lakes Michigan and
Superior by fewer than 10 fishing vessels operating out of
a few ports along mid-Green Bay, at Two Rivers on Lake Michigan
and at Duluth on Lake Superior. Trawlers usually operate in the
same area over a long period of time, so they are very predictable
and easy to avoid."

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/nets.html

"Last winter the Department worked with commercial fishers to study
incidental catch rates of lake trout in gill nets set for chubs
during winter. Data were collected by Department employees riding
commercial boats, with the fishers reimbursing the Department for
the time and expenses of those biologists."

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/water/fhp/fish/lakemich/Lake%20Michigan%20Fisheries%20News%20Sept%201997.h tm

"PCBs are present in some types of Lake Michigan fish at concentrations
exceeding US FDA tolerances. Such elevated PCB levels have resulted in
closure of some commercial fisheries and issuance of fish consumption
advisories for sports fishing. PCBs contribute to reproductive problems
and deformities in fish and wildlife (Mac 1988, Gilbertson, 1988)."

http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/lmmb/substs.html

And more on sport fishing on Lake Michigan:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec04/283365.asp

  #30  
Old February 28th, 2006, 11:47 PM posted to rec.outdoors.fishing,misc.rural,misc.consumers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fish Down Stream 3M Ssite On Mississippi River Unsafe

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:55 -0500, Sheldon Harper
wrote:

Lawrence Glickman wrote in :

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:05:24 -0500, Neon John wrote:


All the below is TRASH Neon John. Somewhat like your
self-congratulatory self...rubbish.


Do you know about fertilizer runoff? Do you KNOW that commercial
fisheries are disallowed from harvesting ANYTHING from Lake Michigan
because it is so contaminated with carcinogens? Look it up, Banjo
Boy, before you open your fat mouth again on this newsgroup.


FACT:
fish in Lake Michigan are not fit for Human Consumption because of
high concentrations of toxins from the water.


FACT:
Commercial fisheries are prohibited from harvesting marine life from
Lake Michigan because of the above.


================================================== ===========
I think you better alert the commercial fishing boats about it!


They are in clear violation of the Law. I think you had better alert
them. I'm about 20 or 30 minutes south of the most southern part of
the Lake, and live in one of the most contaminated areas.

This contamination is mostly from INDUSTRIAL EFFLUENT that has been
pumped into the Lake over the course of the last century by Big
Business, as in USS Steel.


snip rant


pity...I thought it was worthy of a repost

I decided to take a look for myself, and this is some of what I found.

"Bottom trawl nets are presently used on Lakes Michigan and
Superior by fewer than 10 fishing vessels operating out of
a few ports along mid-Green Bay, at Two Rivers on Lake Michigan
and at Duluth on Lake Superior. Trawlers usually operate in the
same area over a long period of time, so they are very predictable
and easy to avoid."

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/nets.html

"Last winter the Department worked with commercial fishers to study
incidental catch rates of lake trout in gill nets set for chubs
during winter. Data were collected by Department employees riding
commercial boats, with the fishers reimbursing the Department for
the time and expenses of those biologists."

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/water/fhp/fish/lakemich/Lake%20Michigan%20Fisheries%20News%20Sept%201997.h tm


VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
"PCBs are present in some types of Lake Michigan fish at concentrations
exceeding US FDA tolerances. Such elevated PCB levels have resulted in
closure of some commercial fisheries and issuance of fish consumption
advisories for sports fishing. PCBs contribute to reproductive problems
and deformities in fish and wildlife (Mac 1988, Gilbertson, 1988)."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^

It is worse that the government is willing to admit to the public.
Much worse.

BTW, the Vermillion River, which has nothing to do with Lake Michigan,
is contaminated to dangerous levels with phosphates from farm
fertilizer runoff. To the point it is also unfit for human
consumption. Yet Ottawa Illinois and Streator Illinois get all their
drinking water from this one contaminated source.

Would you use a *filter* if you lived there? Or would you just dip
and drink?

http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/lmmb/substs.html

And more on sport fishing on Lake Michigan:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec04/283365.asp


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Ephorons and Antaeus TR George Cleveland Fly Fishing 13 September 3rd, 2004 07:45 PM
San Juan and the Fish Pimp bruiser Fly Fishing 22 December 13th, 2003 11:38 PM
Fish much smarter than we imagined John General Discussion 14 October 8th, 2003 10:39 PM
Scientific Research confirms that fish feel pain: INTENSIVE FISH FARMING John General Discussion 3 October 6th, 2003 09:50 PM
Scientific Research confirms that fish feel pain: INTENSIVE FISH FARMING John UK Sea Fishing 3 October 6th, 2003 09:50 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 FishingBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.