How much fly line?

How many feet of flyline should be tied on to your backing?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

"Steve Thomas" wrote in message
...
How many feet of flyline should be tied on to your backing?

All of it.

The more useful question is, "How much backing should be behind your fly
line?" The answer is, generally, as much as will fit.

Thanks,

You're welcome.

Wolfgang

Steve Thomas wrote:
How many feet of flyline should be tied on to your backing?

Most flylines are 30 yards long and are designed to be put
on the reel whole. Some people cut their double taper or DT
flylines in half but most of us don't.

In the case of weight forward or WF flylines only the front
of the flyline is tapered the rear portion being like a
running line. So a flyline is a distinct entity, a whole
thing as it were, not a length of something you cut to fit.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Mar 19, 2:05 pm, (Steve Thomas) wrote:
How many feet of flyline should be tied on to your backing?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

That depends heavily on how many feet of fly-line you need, and what
you want to do with it. Most people buy a ready made fly-line, either
a WF ( weight forward, badly misnamed, which is basically a shooting
head, normally about thirty feet long attached to integrated running
line), or a DT ( Double taper ). The "standard" fly-line length is
ninety feet. Some people cut this in half, or even other
configurations, to match the rod, suit a particular purpose, get more
backing on the reel, or a combination of all these things.

There are now a large number of variations and deviations from the
standards in fly-lines.

Most versatile of all systems is a shooting head system. The following
may be of use to you;

What is a "shooting head"? What can I do with it? Do I really need
one?

Basically a shooting head is just a piece of line of a certain length
and weight, designed to carry out a specific task.

Although shooting heads are widely considered to be pure distance
tools, this is not at all the case. Of course they are excellent
distance tools, but when correctly set up, they can be used for a
whole host of things. The abbreviation used for shooting heads is
"ST". For instance, a ready made head might be designated ST#7F. This
translates to "Shooting Taper, AFTM #7, Floater.

The AFTMA, American Fishing Tackle Manufacturers Association, which is
now the ASA, American Sportfishing Association, originally defined
some standards for fly lines. These standards were based on the first
thirty feet of any given line, ( excluding any level tip, if present),
and have been in use for a long time now.

The "taper" on most shooting heads is the same as the taper on the
front of a DT on standard heads, but there are in the meantime a great
many "special" tapers available.

Of course one may buy shooting heads "ready-made", including those
with special tapers, but these will practically never match either the
rod, or your preferences.

How do I get one suited to my particular purposes then?

First of all, one has to determine what those purposes might be.

It is as well to know how these things are defined, and the
nomenclature in use.

A shooting head is basically any piece of line other than a full line,
which is joined to shooting line by a knot or similar. That is to say,
any line where the shooting line is not "integrated" at manufacture.

Any line with a head and running line section which are seamlessly
integrated, may be referred to as Weight Forward ( WF) fly line.
Rocket Tapers, Bass Bug Tapers, Sal****er Tapers, Steelhead Tapers,
Triangle Tapers and Teeny Tapers are all weight Forward Fly Lines. The
integrated shooting line, is in this case referred to as "running
line".

Assume we wanted a head for pure distance casting, then we must find a
piece of line which suits our rod and other preferences exactly. As
this particular type of casting is more suited to the competition and
tournament fields, we will leave this for the moment, and move on to
more practical considerations. Suffice it to say here, that the
shooting head for distance is irrevocably linked to the double haul,
which was first introduced to competition casting by Marvin Hedge at
the 1934 Nationals in St. Louis.

We will first take a look at a specific practical use for shooting
heads, namely, fly fishing in sal****er.

As a shooting head rarely even enters the rod-rings during this type
of fishing, it does not have to be of any extreme quality. One may use
mill end DT´s and cut them as desired. This is cheap and easy.

How does one decide what weight line to use in the first place?

As a rough guide, here is a table, for roughly matching fly-sizes to
lines;

The larger the number ( up to size 1/0) the smaller the hook. Above
1/0 the
larger the number, the larger the hook.

Line Weight Fly size
3 28 -12
4 up to 10
5 up to 8
6 up to 6
7 up to 4
8 12 - 1/0
9 up to 2/0
10 up to 3/0
11 up to 4/0
12 up to 6/0

There is a lot of overlap, and heavy ( weighted) or bulky flies will
require a heavier line than indicated in the table. There is a lot of
nonsense talked about "weightless" flies etc. Here again, there is no
such animal. The larger the fly the heavier it is. Bulky flies also
have more air resistance and need heavier lines to carry them.

Double hauling will increase the weight of fly which can be carried,
as it generates more line speed. A shooting head will carry the most
weight in any given range.

This is the AFTM line rating table. It is the only set of standards in
existence for fly-fishing tackle. There are no others. The figures
given are for the first thirty feet of a DT line, including the taper,
but excluding the level tip, ( if present).

AFTM In grains In grams In ounces
3 100 +/- 6 6.48 0.228
4 120 +/- 6 7.78 0.274
5 140 +/- 6 9.07 0.32
6 160 +/- 8 10.42 0.366
7 185 +/- 8 11.99 0.422
8 210 +/- 8 13.61 0.48
9 240 +/- 10 15.55 0.55
10 280 +/- 10 18.14 0.64
11 330 +/- 12 21.38 0.75
12 380 +/- 12 24.62 0.86

It will be seen that 30 feet of #12 line weighs 0.86 ounces. (Most of
my #12 sal****er and pike fishing heads weigh a full ounce, as they
are slightly longer than thirty feet).

Once again, as a rough guide, most #6 rated rods, will cast a full
ounce without difficulty.

A one ounce weight will carry a relatively heavy fly a long way.

Unfortunately, most people do not grasp the basics of fly-casting or
gear matching from the start. Often as a result of misinformation.

In order to be succesful you must match your gear to the task at hand.
The only way to do this, is to decide what you are going to fish for,
where you are going to do it, under what circumstances, and WITH WHICH
FLIES!!!!!

Once you know which flies ( in terms of size, weight etc), you need,
then you know what size line you need to carry them. Once you know
which line you need to carry them, you can choose a rod to suit the
line.

You may also use different lines on the same rod to suit particular
purposes, quite irrespective of what is marked on the butt.

This is what matching, or "balancing" gear means.

Assuming however, that you already have a rod you wish to use, most
people have, although, as stated, it is the wrong way to go about
things, then you need to find a "rough" match for it, so that you know
which weight line to buy.

Assume further that the AFTM rating on the rod is accurate. Assume the
rod has a rating of #8. This means that the rod will theoretically
cast optimally with thirty feet of #8 line outside the tip.

This is "NEVER" the case! Most rods will cast much heavier weights
than they are rated for, as they must usually be capable of casting a
whole DT!

This means that this particular rod will cast ninety feet of #8 line!
Ninety feet of #8 line weighs 630 grains!!! Or 1.44 oz!

As a general rule, and a matter of experience, the optimum casting
weight for such a rod usually lies at about two thirds of this weight
= ~ 400 grains which is about an ounce.


We only wish to cast thirty feet or so of line. So we need to look at
line that will give us something like this weight for thirty feet.

Thirty feet of #12 line weighs 380 grains (+/- 12 grains tolerance).
So in this case, I would simply put a #12 DT on the rod, and casting
normally, without hauling etc, slowly extend line, until I found the
optimum weight and length, and then cut this at the rod tip. This line
will be about thirty feet long, depending how accurate the line
tolerances are, and the rod rating. That was it! Quite simple really.
Just attach this "head" to shooting backing, and you have a perfectly
matched head.

Furthermore, if you weigh this head, you know exactly what weight of
floater this rod will cast perfectly. IRRESPECTIVE OF ITS LENGTH!!!
( Within limits of course). If you want better more delicate
presentation, choose a longer length of line with the same weight.
Some casters prefer longer heads, up to 45 feet, or even more. But
these can have disadvantages for sal****er fishing, and less than
perfect casters.

If you wish to use intermediate or sinking lines, the principle is the
same, but take more care when casting the DT. Sinking and intermediate
lines of the same weight, travel a lot faster than floaters, as a
result of their lesser diameter, and greater density, this loads the
rod more. You will almost certainly find that an intermediate line
about one line rating lower than the floater will be about optimal,
and a high density sinker about two ratings lower will be optimal.

There are numerous advantages to such heads. You always cast the same
length and weight of line, and this is easier. They are cheap! You get
at least two heads out of a standard DT. They take up less room on the
reel. They can be used in pretty tight conditions. You can loop on
whatever head you wish to use in a very short time. I carry my heads
loosely coiled in a "CD" wallet.

Of course you can use WF lines, which basically are just shooting
heads spliced to running line, "integrated" heads, which are more or
less the same, or even full DT lines. But if you are serious about
sal****er fishing, with relatively "conventional" fly-gear, then there
is no real alternative to a well matched set of shooting heads.

There is however a great deal more to be learned from the above simple
set of facts.

We have only covered one particular specific use for a shooting head.
We know that a head will carry a great deal more weight than a
conventional line which matches the rod. This is simply because it is
shorter, and of course heavier.

There is no reason we can not use these facts to help us with other
angling problems. One can for instance use a shooting head to cast
much heavier or bulkier flies than the usual rod and line combination
will allow.

We can for instance use a piece of #6 or even heavier line on a #3
weight rod, as long as the weight matches, thus allowing us to cast
relatively heavy flies with very light gear.

A little thought on the matter will show you numerous ways in which a
head can help you with practical fishing problems. There are a number
of solutions to various problems, using heads..

TL
MC

wrote:
(Steve Thomas) wrote:
How many feet of flyline should be tied on to your backing?

snip
... Suffice it to say here, that the
shooting head for distance is irrevocably linked to the double haul,
which was first introduced to competition casting by Marvin Hedge at
the 1934 Nationals in St. Louis.
snip

Suffice ? Good grief, you blew right past "suffice" and wound up
on the far side of pedantic.

--
Ken Fortenberry

HAULING

It is not usually very much use to try and aerialise more than about
35 feet of any line, most especially with a WF line ( which normally
has a thirty foot "head"). They are designed to be shot. The heavy
head part is aerialised, and the thin running line is shot. This is
much more difficult to do if you have too much running line out.
Indeed beyond a certain very limited amount, it is quite impossible,
as the thin running line will not transfer energy to the head.

The same applies to "shooting heads", although these may vary
considerably in length.

Ideally you should not have more than a yard of thin running line
outside the rod tip. To practice, do the following; aerialise as much
line as you can cast comfortably, without any strain or heaving or
hauling or anything else. If the line is correctly matched to your
rod, you will find this is about thirty to thirty-eight feet. MOST
LINES WHICH ARE RATED AT THE SAME
AFTM# AS YOUR ROD WILL NOT MATCH AT ALL!!!! You will normally require
much heavier lines as WF´s or as shooting heads, as these are much
shorter and consequently lighter than the line the rod is designed to
cast. If the line does not match, results will be poor.

On rods marked #7/#8 then you should try a #9 head first. One can make
up one´s own heads, from ordinary DT lines, but this is the subject of
another article. Quite a few people will disagree with this, and tell
you all sorts of things. If you want to KNOW! what works best, then
simply try it, you don´t have to take my word for it. For a lot of
my fishing I use much heavier heads than this with no problems.

If using a WF line, you must determine where the head part of the line
ends, lay this about a yard or so outside the rod tip, and then take a
felt waterproof pen, and mark the line WHERE YOUR LEFT HAND IS HOLDING
IT AT THE ROD BUTT. Do not try to aerialise any more line than this.
Even very good
casters are unable to aerialise more than about three or four yards
over the head length of a WF line, despite using various tricks, as it
is next to impossible to get a satisfactory power transfer from the
thin running line to the head. The cast just collapses.

If you are unsure where the head part of the line ends, and the
running line starts, just pull off line through the tip ring with your
fingers, ( DON´T BEND THE ROD TO DO THIS; PULL LINE DIRECTLY FROM THE
REEL; AND THEN STRAIGHT OUT OF THE TIP RING! You can otherwise easily
break your rod tip), until you notice a fairly sudden step-down in the
line diameter. Some WF lines will have "back tapers" of varying
lengths, Most shooting heads have no back taper. ( At least at the
time of writing). That is the end of the head. Having determined where
this is, pull two to three feet more out of the tip ring, and then
mark the line at THE BUTT WHERE YOUR LEFT HAND WILL HOLD IT. This
ensures that you always have the optimum amount of line out. Trying to
aerialise much more than this will simply not work, so it is pointless
to try.

Distance casting is easier with a shooting head, but a WF will also
work if you realise exactly what you are attempting to do. You will
not be able to achieve the same distance though. On water, and in
thick undergrowth or similar, it is best to use a line tray, as
otherwise your line will
constantly tangle, or be held by the water when you attempt to shoot.
On grass, when practising, it does not matter.

You can cast further to some extent simply by putting more power in
the forward cast, and then letting go of the line you have previously
pulled off the reel and have laid out properly, at the right moment.
The right moment is exactly at the end of the forward cast. Too soon
and you will lose power, and the line will wrap around the rod below
the butt ring, too late and the line will not shoot to its maximum
potential.

In order to gain more distance, we need more line speed. This is
achieved by hauling on the line at the right moment.

One may work out line normally in order to extend the head initially.
Here, we are assuming that the line is already extended properly,
before the cast is actualy commenced. This will be the result of false
casting, roll casting, or similar, under normal fishing conditions.

Assuming a right handed caster, the simple way to explain the single
haul is as follows. Your back cast has completed as normal, and the
line is straight out behind you. As you start your forward casting
stroke, you should be holding the line tightly in your left hand, YOUR
HANDS SHOULD BE CLOSE TOGETHER, ( for maximum power, tournament
casters reach forward and grasp the line at the butt ring, but do not
try this at first, it just complicates matters ), as the rod moves
forward in the casting stroke, pull down on the line, dependent on how
hard, how fast, and how long you pull ( the length of the left hand
pulling stroke), the line speed increases proportionally and
dramatically, as it is directly accelerated by the pull of your hand.
Ideally, the haul should be of the same duration as the stroke,
accelerating smoothly up to the stop, just as the rod tip is doing,
propelled by the casting hand, but in practice this is not required,
even a short haul at the right moment will give massive line
acceleration.

The cast consists of two completely independent components, the rod
stroke with the casting hand, and the haul with the line hand. These
movements must be coordinated properly for maximum effect.

As the forward cast completes, and the rod is stopped, let go of the
line completely with your left hand. You will probably be quite amazed
at the distance you have shot. The first few times you do this it is
quite common for the line to go out with so much power that the
ratchet on the reel comes into operation! This means you could have
shot more line easily! Try to keep the haul smooth and powerful, do
not jerk it.

One of the most common mistakes beginners make, is trying to apply too
much power too quickly. Once
you get the hang of things, you will be surprised at how little power
is really required to cast a very long way. The technique is far more
important than brute force.

Concentrate on casting UP! and back, not just back. This will keep
your back cast high, and prevent a lot of problems.


The double haul is slightly harder to accomplish. At the start of the
cast, your rod tip should be low, almost touching the ground, and
there must be no slack in the line. YOUR HANDS SHOULD BE CLOSE
TOGETHER, the line gripped firmly in your left hand. Raise the rod
slowly and smoothly to the ten o clock position KEEPING YOUR HANDS
TOGETHER, move smoothly into your back cast at ten o clock, and at the
same time haul down on the line with your left hand, as the back cast
flows out smoothly up and behind you, and still holding the line
tightly MOVE YOUR LEFT HAND BACK with the line, as the line goes out,
and the rod drifts slightly, so that your hands are once again
almost touching. Do not try to speed up this movement, simply allow
the line to feed back up through the butt ring.

As soon as the line is all straight out behind, the forward thrust of
the rod is started, and the left hand immediately hauls down on the
line. The forward drive is now complete, and the rod is stopping, the
haul hand has reached it´s maximum travel, and at PRECISELY THIS
MOMENT, release the line from the left hand.

The line will shoot a very long way. A ninety foot cast is usually no
problem with this method. Do not hold the line with your left hand, or
form "o"s with your fingers or anything like that. Let go of the line
completely. A haul ( the amount of line pulled with the left hand ),of
a couple of
inches is sufficient for most casting, although as I said, the longer
harder and faster the haul, the greater the distance possible.

Top casters using this technique, and shooting heads, reach distances
in excess of 80 yards, which is TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY FEET. This is
not a misprint or a mistake, it is a fact.

For normal casting purposes, no particular exertion is required. There
is absolutely no need to "bust a gut", your movements should be
controlled and not over hurried. If you attempt to reach maximum
distance with every cast, you will however tire quickly. Once you can
consistently reach 70 feet without strain, leave it at that. You can
occasionally try for much further,but don't try it all the time, or
your fishing will become more like a workout than a pleasant
experience. These techniques are especially good for covering a lot of
water, as in much sla****er fishing, and on large stillwaters.

With practice and as your timing improves, you will routinely cast one
hundred feet with ease. Take a tape measure along, and peg out the
field where you are casting before you start. This saves a lot of
nonsensical argument. Try also to remember that this is not a
competition, you are
simply trying to improve your casting, irrespective of what anybody
else says or does.

It should also be remembered that a well built powerful person who
uses this technique properly will be able to cast further than a
slightly built person. For the same reason that they can throw a
hammer a javelin or a discus further. They have more power to start
with.

It should also be remembered that there are certain physical limits.
For a person of relatively normal build and height, the best rod for
this purpose is a stiffish fast action rod about nine feet three
inches long. Taller more powerful people can often use longer rods.
Some people prefer longer rods for certain types of fishing, although
a 10 foot rod is about the maximum snesible length for most single
hand rods in normal use.

Double hauling for distance with a seven foot #4 trout rod and a DT
line is just silly, although a double ( or single ) haul may be useful
for other purposes in this case. When fishing into a
wind, or using heavier than normal flies for instance, and wishing the
leader to turn over properly.

For some of you who asked about shooting heads. It is important to
realise that the WEIGHT of a shooting head is critical, and not its
length. The length is to a great extent immaterial. There are however
limits.

Thirty feet of #8 line weighs about 212 grains. This is about the same
weight as 45 feet of #5

39 feet of #6

33 feet of # 7

30 feet of #8

27 feet of #9

22 feet of #10

18 feet of # 11

Once you know what actual weight of line, in grains or ounces, your
rod casts best with, you can use any line of the same actual weight on
it, irrespective of its length. Of course you will have trouble
trying to aerialise more than sixty feet or so of line, and never
reach the optimal weight. Less than about twenty eight feet of line
is also harder to cast.

A thin fly line has less air resistance than a thick one, so
theoretically you should be able to cast 45 feet of #5 a lot further
than 30 feet of #8. However, many casters have trouble aerialising 45
feet of head properly. In practice, a head about thirty feet long
matched to the rod is about the best casting instrument for normal
fishing.

A high density sinking head is about the best line for attaining pure
distance in normal fishing. Assuming pure distance is what you want.
It is also the best line for fishing deep water.

As ever, it is as well to realise that casting is only one skill
required for angling. It is no use casting one hundred feet if the
fish are at your feet, or only thirty feet away.

TL
MC

wrote:
... MOST
LINES WHICH ARE RATED AT THE SAME
AFTM# AS YOUR ROD WILL NOT MATCH AT ALL!!!!
snip

Must be a European problem. All my fly rods match up just fine
with the flylines of the same weight.

Note to newbies: I would take Mr. Connor's "articles" with a
large measure of salt, anybody who tells you to cast a 6wt or
heavier line on your 3wt has got a screw loose.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Mar 19, 6:27 pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
wrote:
... MOST
LINES WHICH ARE RATED AT THE SAME
AFTM# AS YOUR ROD WILL NOT MATCH AT ALL!!!!
snip

Must be a European problem. All my fly rods match up just fine
with the flylines of the same weight.

Note to newbies: I would take Mr. Connor's "articles" with a
large measure of salt, anybody who tells you to cast a 6wt or
heavier line on your 3wt has got a screw loose.

--
Ken Fortenberry

60 feet of #3 weight line weighs ~ 200 grains
30 feet of #6 weight line weighs ~ 160 grains
30 feet of #8 weight line weighs ~ 210 grains

You may cast any of these lines at those lengths on a #3 weight rod.
All that happens is that the rod loads sooner with the heavier line,
but as the casting capacity of the rod is not exceeded, it makes no
difference to the rod itself.

Indeed, several top casters tried casting #12 weight lines on # 3
weight rods. The rods felt like noodles with more than a certain
amount of line out, but nothing happened, no rods broke, or were
otherwise damaged, despite those involved trying their hardest.

The actual weight of a line is important, not the AFTM #. The weight
is a factor of the length, and the line size. So in point of fact, you
can cast 90 feet of DT#3 line on a #3 weight, which weighs 300 grains,
or you can just as easily cast 30 feet of #10 weight, which weighs 280
grains.

MC

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
... MOST
LINES WHICH ARE RATED AT THE SAME
AFTM# AS YOUR ROD WILL NOT MATCH AT ALL!!!!
snip
Must be a European problem. All my fly rods match up just fine
with the flylines of the same weight.

Note to newbies: I would take Mr. Connor's "articles" with a
large measure of salt, anybody who tells you to cast a 6wt or
heavier line on your 3wt has got a screw loose.

snip
The actual weight of a line is important, not the AFTM #. The weight
is a factor of the length, and the line size. So in point of fact, you
can cast 90 feet of DT#3 line on a #3 weight, which weighs 300 grains,
or you can just as easily cast 30 feet of #10 weight, which weighs 280
grains.

Like I said, a screw loose and mad as a hatter too.

Your fly fishing pronouncements remind me of nothing more than
the bombast the late George Gehrke used to pitch here. No harm,
no foul I guess, so long as no one actually believes your silly
"theories". I'm tempted to ask why on earth the AFTMA would
deliberately mislead the fly fishing public about line weights
leaving the one and only truth to be discovered and taught to
us mere mortals by the great Mike Connor but I'm afraid you might
actually try to answer. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Mar 19, 8:05 pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
... MOST
LINES WHICH ARE RATED AT THE SAME
AFTM# AS YOUR ROD WILL NOT MATCH AT ALL!!!!
snip
Must be a European problem. All my fly rods match up just fine
with the flylines of the same weight.

Note to newbies: I would take Mr. Connor's "articles" with a
large measure of salt, anybody who tells you to cast a 6wt or
heavier line on your 3wt has got a screw loose.

snip
The actual weight of a line is important, not the AFTM #. The weight
is a factor of the length, and the line size. So in point of fact, you
can cast 90 feet of DT#3 line on a #3 weight, which weighs 300 grains,
or you can just as easily cast 30 feet of #10 weight, which weighs 280
grains.

Like I said, a screw loose and mad as a hatter too.

Your fly fishing pronouncements remind me of nothing more than
the bombast the late George Gehrke used to pitch here. No harm,
no foul I guess, so long as no one actually believes your silly
"theories". I'm tempted to ask why on earth the AFTMA would
deliberately mislead the fly fishing public about line weights
leaving the one and only truth to be discovered and taught to
us mere mortals by the great Mike Connor but I'm afraid you might
actually try to answer. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

What´s the matter dumbo, can´t you read a simple table?

MC