Fish do/don't anticipate things? (was: "ARAs" against Game chickens)

On 26 Aug 2005 Goo wrote:

dh wrote:

Fish can and do anticipate Goo

They don't.

It has already been established that they do. One
example of them anticipating is: lake fish hang out
around lakeside restaurants because people feed
them. And we've also noted that they follow ducks
around, Goo, out of anticipation of the ducks getting
some bread, and quite possibly of what might come
out of the ducks' asses as well...processed bread.
Those are two clear examples of anticipation in fish.
There are probably plenty more of them.

Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

Even the simplest organisms have some capacity for learning when it's
directly related to their survival. If a fish always sees a person when
it's being fed, it will associate the image of a person with food and
will exhibit feeding behavior every time it sees somebody, even before
any food is dropped in front of them. In the wild and in captivity, this
ability to associate events ensures that the smartest fish gets to the
food faster than the dumb ones and is thus more likely to survive longer
to pass on it's "smart" genes.

The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316



Logic: n. The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with
the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.
-- Ambrose Bierce

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:06:26 GMT, wrote:


I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from
a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.


And how is it that you know exactly what a dead bird felt before it
died? Or how any wild thing is feeling about itself?

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

wrote:
I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from
a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
--
I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

This poem is fundamentally flawed. Most animals, including avian
species, lack the necessary mental capacity to have a sense of "self" in
the first place.

- Logic316



"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
-- Ronald Reagan

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:25:50 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.

That stimulus response *is* anticipation Goo.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:06:41 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

wrote:
I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from
a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
--
I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

This poem is fundamentally flawed. Most animals, including avian
species, lack the necessary mental capacity to have a sense of "self" in
the first place.

- Logic316

There are examples that suggest otherwise. For example: We all
know that a dog is aware of his balls, so what would make us believe
he is not aware of himself?

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:30:20 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:55:35 -0500, Cyli
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:06:26 GMT, wrote:


I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from
a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.


And how is it that you know exactly what a dead bird felt before it
died? Or how any wild thing is feeling about itself?


Perhaps by the same reasoning that allows you to speak to squirrels
and causes your paranoia with regards to trout.

Maybe not. Why do you think animals can't feel sorry for
themselves? What could prevent it?

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:40:20 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

Even the simplest organisms have some capacity for learning when it's
directly related to their survival. If a fish always sees a person when
it's being fed, it will associate the image of a person with food and
will exhibit feeding behavior every time it sees somebody, even before
any food is dropped in front of them.

Goo insists that no animals can anticipate, but that humans are
somehow projecting their emotions into the animals causing them
to behave in a way which gives the obvious appearance that they
are experiencing them themselves...most likely through voodoo or
something...it's bizarre, whatever it is.

In the wild and in captivity, this
ability to associate events ensures that the smartest fish gets to the
food faster than the dumb ones and is thus more likely to survive longer
to pass on it's "smart" genes.

I've explained to Goo that without the ability to anticipate, hawks
would starve to death. They wouldn't look for food if they didn't
anticipate finding it. That seemed as clear an example as I could
think of, but he still can't understand.

The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316

Most likely they can learn to avoid things as well as anticipate
getting food from them. Amusingly, Goo can understand that animals
feel fear and anger, but can't understand that they also feel pride,
anticipation and disappointment. It's amusing, but in an almost pitiable
way.