waterboarding

Somewhere I think waterboarding fits into this somewhere in what is
written below....

\-"-A-r-e- -w-e- -f-i-g-h-t-i-n-g- -a- -w-a-r- -o-n- -t-e-r-r-o-r-
-o-r- -a-r-e-n-'-t- -w-e-?- -W-a-s- -i-t- -o-r- -w-a-s- -i-t- -n-o-t-
-s-t-a-r-t-e-d- -b-y- -I-s-l-a-m-i-c- -p-e-o-p-l-e- -w-h-o-
-b-r-o-u-g-h-t- -i-t- -t-o- -o-u-r- -s-h-o-r-e-s- -o-n-
-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-[-C-O-L-O-R-=-r-e-d-]-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-S-e-p-t-e-m-b-e-r-
-1-1-,- -2-0-0-1-[-/-F-O-N-T-]-[-/-C-O-L-O-R-]-[-/-F-O-N-T-]- ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally
murdered that day, in downtown ?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /st1:City
w:st="on"Manhattan/st1:City , across the Potomac from our nation's
capitol and in a field in st1:State w:st="on"st1lace
w:st="on"Pennsylvania/st1lace/st1:State?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?... Well, I
don't. I don't care at all .

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in
Saudi Arabia

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking
off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in
st1:country-region w:st="on"st1lace
w:st="on"Iraq/st1lace/st1:country-region come out and fight like
men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up
an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care .

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest
assured: I don't care .

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:
I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care .

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran"
and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it I
don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the pe ople responsible for this
ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I
add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." --
Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a
nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves Starting to believe all the Anti-American
sentiment and negativity, we should remember st1:country-region
w:st="on"st1lace w:st="on"England/st1lace/st1:country-region
's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When
asked by on e of his Parliament members why he believes so much in
st1:country-region w:st="on"st1lace
w:st="on"America/st1lace/st1:country-region, he said: "A simple
way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And
how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM.
AMEN?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
\"urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice\" /o/o

F/T AND I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!!


--
Fishin Technician
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=13389


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

"Ray or Bobbi Adams" wrote in message
...

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken
captive by a foreign government who thought they had valuable
information. Would it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no; and
that's the same outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely,
and you *know* they will give you the correct information under torture.
But, the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you
begin the torture. Further, even with information you glean in that
manner, you can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the torture.
IOW, you're going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.
If we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children with
the same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

Not necessarily.

Op

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

"rw" wrote


This country has lost its way.

--


Note: the following is MY opinion




MY country is more that buildings and bodies.

It is values that I pray will still exist and be strong long after the
current stock of individual building and bodies are dust again.

"W" makes me sick each time he gives lip service to 'protecting the country'
as he actually works at destroying it's most important values.





Note: This has been MY personal Opinion

Somewhere I think waterboarding fits into this somewhere in what is
written below....

\-"-A-r-e- -w-e- -f-i-g-h-t-i-n-g- -a- -w-a-r- -o-n- -t-e-r-r-o-r-
-o-r- -a-r-e-n-'-t- -w-e-?- -W-a-s- -i-t- -o-r- -w-a-s- -i-t- -n-o-t-
-s-t-a-r-t-e-d- -b-y- -I-s-l-a-m-i-c- -p-e-o-p-l-e- -w-h-o-
-b-r-o-u-g-h-t- -i-t- -t-o- -o-u-r- -s-h-o-r-e-s- -o-n-
-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-[-C-O-L-O-R-=-r-e-d-]-[-F-O-N-T-=-V-e-r-d-a-n-a-]-S-e-p-t-e-m-b-e-r-
-1-1-,- -2-0-0-1-[-/-F-O-N-T-]-[-/-C-O-L-O-R-]-[-/-F-O-N-T-]- ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally
murdered that day, in downtown office buildings in ?xml:namespace
prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[image:
http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulletin/ /st1:City
w:st=]Manhattan/st1:City , and across the Potomac from our nation's
capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania???

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?... Well, I
don't. I don't care at all .

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in
Saudi Arabia

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking
off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in
st1:country-region w:st="on"ST1lace
w:st="on"Iraq/ST1lace/st1:country-region come out and fight like
men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up
an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care .

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest
assured: I don't care .

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:
I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care .

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran"
and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it I
don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the pe ople responsible for this
ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I
add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." --
Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a
nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves Starting to believe all the Anti-American
sentiment and negativity, we should remember Prime Minister Tony
Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his
Parliament members why he believes so much in America , he said: "A
simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want
in... And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM.
AMENfficeffice\" /O/O

F/T AND I APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!!


--
Fishin Technician
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fishin Technician's Profile: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...hp?userid=1806
View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=13389


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Dec 29, 2:45*pm, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:44:03 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"

wrote:
I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote.

That's because he is drunk *--- again.

But tomorrow I'll be sober, you will still be stupid and ugly.

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:42:32 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I can only suppose that you wouldn't have problem with the so-called
enemies
of the US torturing our troops at will as well. I mean it could save the
lives of our enemies troops.

What are you talking about, nitwit. They ARE torturing our troops,
and not for info, but just for the pleasure of it. Where the hell
have you been for the past few years? I know you live in a backward
town in backward section of a great state, but surely they have tv,
radio, newspapers.


Imagine that? You're not one who holds with the ideals of liberal democracy
are you. Now I know that you will associate the word "liberal" with
political ideology, but that ain't got nothin' to do with what I am alluding
to. I mean you don't really abide with the precepts of constitutionalism, do
ya Davie?

Begin Quotes**
In Furman v. Georgia (1972), Justice Brennan wrote, "There are, then, four
principles by which we may determine whether a particular punishment is
'cruel and unusual'."

a.. The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its
severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
b.. "A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary
fashion."
c.. "A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout
society."
d.. "A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."
Because it is the needless infliction of pain, torture is prohibited by the
Eighth Amendment--

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_...s_Constitution)

The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly
in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.

It defines torture as any act by which:
severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally
inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:

a.. obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
b.. punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or
is suspected of having committed
c.. intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
d.. or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with
the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in
an official capacity.*

*Amnesty International believes that acts of violence by private individuals
constitute torture when they are of the nature and severity envisaged by the
concept of torture in international standards and when the state has failed
to fulfill its obligation to provide effective protection against such acts
of
violence. --(http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_St...&n2=38&n3=1052)



"Lt. Col. V. Stuart Couch, a former Guantanamo Bay prosecutor and appellate
judge of the Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals, was scheduled to
appear before a House subcommittee today to testify about the use of
waterboarding and the legality of torture and other interrogation
techniques."

"In a March 31 Wall Street Journal story, Couch had said he had refused to
prosecute a suspected terrorist because he believed the evidence had been
tainted by torture."

""Waterboarding is torture, period," Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy
instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, said.
"I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and
captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor.""
(http://wcbstv.com/national/hearing.w....2.563973.html)

End Quotes**

My neice's son was killed there last year. He was killed outright
while taking down a couple of al qaeda. His two friends were not so
lucky. They were captured and tortured to death.

Truly sad. But that does not mean that we, as a nation, should condone acts
of torture.

Many people, nations, and ideologies condone many different things that we,
as a nation, abhor and have made laws against, because we are a nation of
laws and recognize that vengeance is not justice.

Waterboarding causes NO pain, leaves NO mark, draws NO blood. OTOH,
cutting off the genitals and heads of our GI's DOES.

Torture is not merely defined by PAIN, it is also defined by SUFFERING,
whether physical/mental. (see quote from above)

You're a fool, Mark. You can get all the formal education you desire,
but you will remain a fool and a looser until the day you die.

I may very well be a fool, but I have the backing of people in the military,
who have been tortured, to support my argument. You, OTOH, have your hatred
to back your rantings.

My formal education has nothing to do with my beliefs concerning torture or
any other human rights, for that matter. I base my beliefs on morality and
decency. While as an agnostic, I *might* someday burn in hell. You certainly
will burn in hell (supposing of course that Christ ever existed), because
you are morally bankrupt and an anathema to Christ.

As long as I don't ever become what you are, I can accept being a loser in
your jaundiced eyes.

Op

Davie

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:34:05 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

Not necessarily.

You would rather have your head chopped off than be waterboarded?
Hahahahahaha. You are a nitwit.

Davie

Poor little Davie. You can't seem to think beyond your hatred.

You seen not everyone who is waterboarded survives the ordeal. I believe
that I would much rather my head severed from my body and die instantly,
rather than die a slow and torturous death, akin to slowly drowning. You,
OTOH, will undoubtedly know exactly what it feels like to have your head cut
from your shoulders and tell me that it is much more painful to lose ones
head in that manner than it is to slowly die from drowing, which I am sure
you have done at least once in your miserable life, as you are obviously
brain-dead!

HTH

Op

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:44:03 -0500, "Opus--Mark H. Bowen"
wrote:

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what BC wrote.

That's because he is drunk --- again.

He very well might have been drunk when he posted, I have no idea, nor do I
care, but at least he will sober up, if he was drunk.

You, however, will remain a hate filled nihilist.

Op

"Allen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Opus--Mark H. Bowen" wrote:

"Ray or Bobbi Adams" wrote in message
...

"rb608" wrote in message
news:%xsdj.6464$oh5.2546@trndny08...
"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
If waterboarding would save the life of your wife, children, and
boyfriend, would you be in favor of it? Yeah, me too.

Turn that around. Suppose your wife or child was mistakenly taken
captive by a foreign government who thought they had valuable
information. Would it be okay if they were waterboarded? Hell no;
and
that's the same outrage you should have when our country does it.

With all due respect, the false choice you posit is bull****. It
assumes
that you *know* you have the right person, you *know* they possess the
information you seek, you *know* that information is valid and timely,
and you *know* they will give you the correct information under
torture.
But, the fact is, you can know none of that with certainty before you
begin the torture. Further, even with information you glean in that
manner, you can't be certain it is truth or made up to stop the
torture.
IOW, you're going on an inhuman fishing expedition (OBROFF).

Torture is one of those crimes that simply cannot be excused. There
can
be no double standard. If we can do it to them, they can do it to us.
If we can do it to save our children, they can do it to our children
with
the same moral authority. I cannot excuse or condone that.

Joe F.

sure beats beheading

Not necessarily.

Op

As a guy who got waterboarded at SERE let me assure you that beheading
(which I admit to not having endured) is likely worse.

Are we assuming that everyone who is waterboarded survives?

If you were to know that you would not survive the torture, would you still
choose waterboarding?

Op

"Fishin Technician" wrote in
message ...

Obviously, you are a mindless **** head without a thought of his own.

HTH
Op