Well, OK, .....

...... it's very very bad. Effing tragic, really. But the country has
survived a lot, and it's conceivable that it can survive four more years
of pillage and rape by Bush and his big business cronies.

Only thing to do is carry on, live frugally, fight for what's right, try
especially (OBROFF) to save as much wilderness and other public land as
possible, and to pick up whatever pieces are left once the darkness
lifts.

And hope the U.S. isn't by then irredeemably confirmed as the true Evil
Empire in the eyes of the rest of the world....

JR
(glad at the moment that he's neither Iranian nor barely just clinging to
the middle class by an exportable 9-to-5 job....)

"JR" wrote in message
.. .
..... it's very very bad. Effing tragic, really. But the country has
survived a lot, and it's conceivable that it can survive four more years
of pillage and rape by Bush and his big business cronies.

Only thing to do is carry on, live frugally, fight for what's right, try
especially (OBROFF) to save as much wilderness and other public land as
possible, and to pick up whatever pieces are left once the darkness
lifts.

And hope the U.S. isn't by then irredeemably confirmed as the true Evil
Empire in the eyes of the rest of the world....


Nice sentiments. Say goodbye to the ANWR. Its on the plate, first course.

--riverman
(to the victor go the right to spoil.)

"riverman" wrote in message ...
"JR" wrote in message
.. .
..... it's very very bad. Effing tragic, really. But the country has
survived a lot, and it's conceivable that it can survive four more years
of pillage and rape by Bush and his big business cronies.

Only thing to do is carry on, live frugally, fight for what's right, try
especially (OBROFF) to save as much wilderness and other public land as
possible, and to pick up whatever pieces are left once the darkness
lifts.

And hope the U.S. isn't by then irredeemably confirmed as the true Evil
Empire in the eyes of the rest of the world....

Nice sentiments. Say goodbye to the ANWR. Its on the plate, first course.

--riverman
(to the victor go the right to spoil.)

"Nice sentiments." ? ? ?

Jesus. The guy's a crybaby who's talking out of his ass. I love it:
"Effing tragic", "once the darkness lifts", "true Evil Empire". Holy
overstated bull****, Batman! For Christ's sake, you'd think that
G-Dub was promising to pave Jellystone, dam the Madison and start a
couple o' 19th century steel mills in Yosemite the way JR's whining!

You say "Say goodbye to ANWR" like it's Central Park or someplace that
a few oil derricks will obliterate. In reality, it's probably bigger
than Pennsylvania and it's not like they're going to simply pave the
entire place. Ask the folks who live in AK how they feel about it.
Most of them support *anything* that'll provide a year-round job.
North Slope tourism is definitely not going to fit the bill. Ask the
Natives who live in ANWR and you'll get the typical NIMBY response:
the coastal natives are opposed to offshore drilling and the inland
natives are opposed to onshore drilling. Both factions, as you might
expect, are all for drilling everywhere except their own back yards.
These are not your great-grandpappy's Eskimos, either. They have a
whale hunting 'tradition' that includes aluminum boats with internal
combustion engines and steel-tipped harpoons. The inland folks hunt
Caribou herds from snowmachines with scoped rifles. You enviro-flakes
have some idyllic mental picture of some snow-burned midget crawling
around in Caribou hides to kill meat for the entire tribe with his
stone-tipped spear, or cruising between ice floes in a sealskin kayak
he made by hand and killing whales with a bone harpoon. Two words:
get real.

Perhaps further dependence on the Saudis would be preferable? I'm all
for solar, etc., but the reality of it is that energy demands
worldwide are simply not going to be met with 'alternative' energy
sources for many decades. I hope I'm wrong, but I'll be surprised if
I am.

I'm no G-Dub fanatic like the loser I heard on the radio
yesterday--practically in tears of relief & joy that Kerry'd been
defeated--but I sure as hell don't view the newly re-elected prez as
the environmental anti-Christ.

Get a grip, people!

Tom G
cynic & realist, but not alarmist

Tom Gibson wrote:

Jesus. The guy's a crybaby who's talking out of his ass. I love it:
"Effing tragic", "once the darkness lifts", "true Evil Empire". Holy
overstated bull****, Batman! For Christ's sake, you'd think that
G-Dub was promising to pave Jellystone, dam the Madison and start a
couple o' 19th century steel mills in Yosemite the way JR's whining!

About the natural environment... what the Bush administration has
*already* done is a matter of record. Those who don't think the
administration's aim is to roll back the entire range of environmental
protections it's taken a century to put in place just haven't been paying
close attention. So let's take stock after 4 years and see what Bush and
big business have done that they were constrained from doing during the
first four years in order to get elected again. No such restraints now, a
firm grip on both houses of Congress, and (given the spin one hears on FOX
and reflected here) the pretense of a "sweeping mandate"....

About the "Evil Empire" bit.... I worked the last two and a half years in
a building with around 2,500 employees from well over 100 different
countries. In just my little service there were folks from the U.S.,
Italy, Tunisia, Ireland, Canada (of Malian descent), Afghanistan, Germany,
Lebanon, Senegal, Holland, and Mexico. Based on my observations and daily
conversations, I think it is no exaggeration at all to say that the U.S.
is now considered essentially a rogue nation, THE greatest danger to world
peace and security, even by those nations who have been our traditional
allies and would otherwise be predisposed for many reasons to be our
friends. Again, let's take stock after 4 more years and see how we're
viewed by the world after a couple more wars of aggression in order to
keep Americans blissfully free to take Sunday drives in their monster
SUVs.

Related note: went shopping for a *small* truck today (a Toyota Tacoma);
the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

JR

Tom Gibson wrote:

Jesus. The guy's a crybaby who's talking out of his ass. I love it:
"Effing tragic", "once the darkness lifts", "true Evil Empire". Holy
overstated bull****, Batman! For Christ's sake, you'd think that
G-Dub was promising to pave Jellystone, dam the Madison and start a
couple o' 19th century steel mills in Yosemite the way JR's whining!

About the natural environment... what the Bush administration has
*already* done is a matter of record. Those who don't think the
administration's aim is to roll back the entire range of environmental
protections it's taken a century to put in place just haven't been paying
close attention. So let's take stock after 4 years and see what Bush and
big business have done that they were constrained from doing during the
first four years in order to get elected again. No such restraints now, a
firm grip on both houses of Congress, and (given the spin one hears on FOX
and reflected here) the pretense of a "sweeping mandate"....

About the "Evil Empire" bit.... I worked the last two and a half years in
a building with around 2,500 employees from well over 100 different
countries. In just my little service there were folks from the U.S.,
Italy, Tunisia, Ireland, Canada (of Malian descent), Afghanistan, Germany,
Lebanon, Senegal, Holland, and Mexico. Based on my observations and daily
conversations, I think it is no exaggeration at all to say that the U.S.
is now considered essentially a rogue nation, THE greatest danger to world
peace and security, even by those nations who have been our traditional
allies and would otherwise be predisposed for many reasons to be our
friends. Again, let's take stock after 4 more years and see how we're
viewed by the world after a couple more wars of aggression in order to
keep Americans blissfully free to take Sunday drives in their monster
SUVs.

Related note: went shopping for a *small* truck today (a Toyota Tacoma);
the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

JR

From: JR

the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

If you want 30+ mpg, don't buy a truck. Considering the weight, gearing,
aerodynamics, and engine, 16/21 ain't bad. I just completed a 900 mile round
trip to western New York state in a full size Dodge Ram V8, averaged 70+ mph,
and got 19 mpg. I was happy.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

"George Adams" wrote in message
...
From: JR

the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

If you want 30+ mpg, don't buy a truck. Considering the weight, gearing,
aerodynamics, and engine, 16/21 ain't bad. I just completed a 900 mile
round
trip to western New York state in a full size Dodge Ram V8, averaged 70+
mph,
and got 19 mpg. I was happy.

Ouch. Thats a lot of gas...hope you needed the back space.

My old 1994 4-Runner got about 28 mpg highway and about 22 city. It had the
22R engine, 5 speed manual, and I was very gentle on the pedal...never
flooring it, using the hills to accelerate. Old habits from driving a VW Bus
for years.

I have aspirations of finding something new or used this summer that has
room enough in back to camp in (for trips to Alaska, etc) and still gets at
least 25-28 highway. Am I dreaming...what is there out there?

--riverman

George Adams wrote:

From: JR

the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

If you want 30+ mpg, don't buy a truck. Considering the weight, gearing,
aerodynamics, and engine, 16/21 ain't bad.

Wait, wait, I want a truck AND good mileage. There's no good reason
America and Japan can't build small trucks (the size of Tacomas, Rangers,
etc.) that get the 25-28 mpg Myron says he's aiming for. When gas will
have been $4.00 a gallon for a few years AND several thousand more
American troops have been killed in the Oil Wars, they will....

JR

George Adams wrote:

From: JR

the dealer didn't have what I wanted but was gushing about the GREAT, the
much improved fuel economy of the 2005 models: 16 mph city and 21 mpg
hwy!

If you want 30+ mpg, don't buy a truck. Considering the weight, gearing,
aerodynamics, and engine, 16/21 ain't bad.

Wait, wait, I want a truck AND good mileage. There's no good reason
America and Japan can't build small trucks (the size of Tacomas, Rangers,
etc.) that get the 25-28 mpg Myron says he's aiming for. When gas will
have been $4.00 a gallon for a few years AND several thousand more
American troops have been killed in the Oil Wars, they will....

JR

From: "riverman"

"George Adams" wrote in message

I just completed a 900 mile
round
trip to western New York state in a full size Dodge Ram V8, averaged 70+
and got 19 mpg. I was happy.

Ouch. Thats a lot of gas...hope you needed the back space.

Duh!. If I didn't need the space, I would have taken my Subaru, and gotten 28
MPG instead of my daughter's truck. All things considered, I thought the
mileage wasn't bad, considering I really pushed it.

I have aspirations of finding something new or used this summer that has
room enough in back to camp in (for trips to Alaska, etc) and still gets at
least 25-28 highway. Am I dreaming...what is there out there?

Look at the Subaru Forester or Outback. They might be a bit cramped for
camping, but you won't find much of anything bigger in a newer vehicle that
will get out of the low 20's in real world driving. You can thank the emission
controls for that.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller