Bull Trout

On 2004-02-10 09:55:43 -0700, (Jonathan Cook) said:

JR wrote in message
...
[I guess Huxley wrote:]

"Thus we must not expect too much of the term species. ..."

I couldn't agree more. The problem is we do expect too much. We
have very powerful legislation depending on it (the Endangered
Species Act). We hear about the thousands of species lost every
month in tropical forest clearing (which, btw, I doubt is "true").
While my far-Lumper leaning may lead to absurdities, so does the
far-Splitter leaning, which I think is the prevailing atitude
today. It's no wonder average people applying a little common
sense get put off by some of the applications of the ESA.

It's ironic that while with one breath you criticize "splitters" for
having a political agenda, with the next breath you use your own political
agenda to justify "lumping."

Taxonomy shouldn't be driven by any political agenda. It's a scientific
exercise. Modern scientific techniques such as DNA and protein analysis
have enabled taxonomists to re-examine classifications with better evidence
than mere comparisons of anatomy and other obvious visible traits. It's
only natural that some previous classifications have been found to be
incorrect and have been revised, sometimes dramatically so. Why this should
upset some people with a "conservative" political point of view is a
mystery to me.

All scientific theories are provisional. The possibility always exists that
new evidence could overturn ANY theory, no matter how certain it appears to
be true at the moment. That's a big difference (arguably the biggest
difference) between science and the "revealed truth" of religion, and the
reason why your "high priests" comments are so badly off the mark.

-----------------------------------------------------
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...


I think that if you read your citations you will find that there is no apple
fruiting scion, stem, or rootstock involved in the "fruit salad" trees
offered for sale. The advertising copy on your sites says . . .
""Sugar-Sweet, Big-as-Apples Red Plums". That's not an apple.

The fruit they say the tree produces are plums, necterines, peaches and
apricots. Not apples. Note also that they will not ship these puppies to
Arizona, California, Oregon, or Washington. For good reason.

Your original statement had plum and cherry grafted "easily" to apple. And
that just ain't done AFAIK.

Dave

"Chas Wade" wrote in message
news:U4aWb.213809$Rc4.1722962@attbi_s54...
"Wolfgang" wrote:

At any rate, it's academic.....it ain't gonna happen.

That's a common enough phrase, it's academic, and your definition is
what we usually are thinking when we use it. Ever wonder what that
says about academia?

Nope, not before now.

I don't intend to insult anyone with that comment, it's just that I
like expressions and enjoy digging at their roots.

Just off the top of my head, it seems to me that it's simply an
abbreviated form of "an academic exercise". The outcome of the
exercise, it is assumed, will have no bearing on events in the real
world. Apart from the implicit suggestion that this is the sort of
thing that goes on there, I don't believe it says much about academia.
Some people will doubtless infer that is ALL that goes on there but
the inference isn't supported by anything in the expression.

Did you have something else in mind?

Wolfgang

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...


I think that if you read your citations you will find that there is
no apple
fruiting scion, stem, or rootstock involved in the "fruit salad"
trees
offered for sale. The advertising copy on your sites says . . .
""Sugar-Sweet, Big-as-Apples Red Plums". That's not an apple.

My last message in this discussion was a work in progress that I
thought I had deleted.....hit the "send" button instead, I guess.

The fruit they say the tree produces are plums, necterines, peaches
and
apricots. Not apples.

Yep. And so far, I haven't found any references that suggest anything
other than differing varieties of apples can be grafted onto an apple
tree.

Note also that they will not ship these puppies to
Arizona, California, Oregon, or Washington. For good reason.

Um.....o.k.

Your original statement had plum and cherry grafted "easily" to
apple. And
that just ain't done AFAIK.

Well, my memory of what I saw more than forty years ago could
certainly be faulty. I may pursue the matter a bit further when I get
home this evening. Rest assured that if I find anything you will hear
about it.

Wolfgang

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote...
Hi Wolfgang,

Ahhh, but you are NOT just writing to Wolfgang. 'Tis the beauty of Usenet.
Unless you meant to send a private correspondence and posted here instead, but
no one else has EVER done that.

The Darwinism metaphor might have been inappropriate but I used it from the
angle that natural selection might be leading toward a result that only
those who thrive in the insults, bad language, politics, etc. in this
newsgroup will remain standing. Everyone else will be driven out.

No, everyone else can freely choose whether they stay or not.

snip
Yes, I know that you are a big fan of insult and I
have also seen that you have plenty of interesting things to say.
Nevertheless, I don't think flinging insults at each other is considered
customary good behaviour in today's society. But much worse than that, I
think it that it is actually boring for innocent bystanders. In my opinion,
posts to newgroups should have general interest, not just be two
perpetrators duking it out in a private vendetta.

I guess we ought to get rid of boxing, fencing, tennis, and all other one-on-one
sports because they MUST be boring their fans to tears. ;-)

I was gratified to see
Charles and JR come to their senses; there was good information in their
communications but the trading of insults detracted from my enjoyment of it.
Now, insults used in jest are a totally different matter, they can be some
of the best humour around and I do enjoy them.

You Canukistanis wouldn't know jest if it up and bit you on the ass. (How was
that?)

American politics is
important to everyone in the world, including to non-Americans like me, but
I get my fix elsewhere. I see no logical reason why it should be discussed
in a flyfishing newsgroup - aren't there any politics newsgroups around?

You probably should take a few moments to do a little reading:
http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/ (or "Read the FAQ, Jack")
--
HTH,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

"Wolfgang" wrote in message Well, my memory of what I
saw more than forty years ago could
certainly be faulty. I may pursue the matter a bit further when I get
home this evening. Rest assured that if I find anything you will hear
about it.

Fair enuf.
Dave

Er, Amen
Dave
ideology sucks

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Wolfgang,

Out of all
flyfishermen, I would venture to say that few have even read Shakespeare
and
the others mentioned more than just superficially, let alone enjoyed them.
Probably, like me, they were forced to read him in high school and never
bothered to do so again.

Yuji, your main point makes some sense, but this bit about Shakespeare
doesn't. Try him again as an adult. And the Tales, and Tanizaki and
Kawabata too. :-) I think you might be surprised how many on this NG have
read Tand K above, as well as S.

Dave

"Wolfgang" wrote:

"Chas Wade" wrote in message
news:U4aWb.213809$Rc4.1722962@attbi_s54...
"Wolfgang" wrote:

At any rate, it's academic.....it ain't gonna happen.

That's a common enough phrase, it's academic, and your definition is
what we usually are thinking when we use it. Ever wonder what that
says about academia?

Nope, not before now.

I don't intend to insult anyone with that comment, it's just that I
like expressions and enjoy digging at their roots.

Just off the top of my head, it seems to me that it's simply an
abbreviated form of "an academic exercise". The outcome of the
exercise, it is assumed, will have no bearing on events in the real
world. Apart from the implicit suggestion that this is the sort of
thing that goes on there, I don't believe it says much about academia.
Some people will doubtless infer that is ALL that goes on there but
the inference isn't supported by anything in the expression.

Did you have something else in mind?

Wolfgang

No, that's it. Just a bit of harmless, probably barbless, fun.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Wolfgang wrote:


Engaging in insult and invective puts one in the company of (if not
necessarily on a par with) the likes of Chaucer, Shakespeare, Swift,
Clemens, Wilde, Shaw, Mencken, and innumerable lesser luminaries, and
that's just the ones who wrote in English.

****! You must be VERY special. None of those guys ever insulted me.


Maybe it is just Darwinism in play.


That metaphor has long been stretched way past the breaking point. No
one has to participate here. Darwin had nothing to say about such a
world.


I
disagree with your comment about wording, I don't think the

discussions

would be any less lively if people were nice to each other because I

think

more people would participate and more ideas would come forth.


There are plenty of moderated fishing fora on the web. How do they
compare? More to the point, if they are better why would anyone
interested only in talk of fishing even WANT to be here?


That one too "has long been stretched way past the breaking point". If
someone complains about personal attacks, the lack of fishing related
talk or some of the other behavior on ROFF, the assumption is
immediately made that the person ONLY wants to talk about fishing. That
MAY be true but maybe that person is just commenting about some things
he doesn't like. For example, it seems to me that if it is OK for
someone to be called an "asshole", it's also OK for that person to
complain about it.

Willi