Bull Trout

"Willi" wrote in message
...

I thought the Redside was your native Rainbow. How about this, do
Steelhead and nonmigratory Rainbows share the same watershed...

Yes, they do.

...and do they interbreed?

According to Robert Behnke in his excellent "Trout and Salmon of North
America," occasional interbreeding does occur. He goes on to say that
"Reproductive isolation, although not complete, must be sufficient to
maintain the integrity of the hereditary basis that separates steelhead and
resident rainbow trout."

Cheers,
Bill

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:11:52 GMT, "Bob Weinberger"
wrote:


"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...

That's interesting. I've found on inland waters that rainbows fight
and jump very well, cutts do neither and cutbows are, as you'd expect,
kinda half-assed. Any chance that your searun cutts are cutbows ?

--
Ken Fortenberry


Yeah, Yellowstone Cutts are real dogs when it comes to fighting, but
Coastal Strain Cutts are entirely different - especially those that have
gone to the salt and returned - they are fantastic fighters.
[snipped]

I had a few years flyfishing the tidal areas of Hoods Canal tributaries and
can heartily attest to the veracity of that statement...

/daytripper (salt definitely makes trout feisty!)

"rw" wrote in message
. ..
On 2004-02-05 08:09:51 -0700, "Thomas Gnauck" said:


They are two different species. The Dolly Varden is Salvelinus malma malma
and the Bull Trout is Salvelinus confluentus. This web site gives a
description of the differences:

Personally, as a layman, I can't really believe that taxonomy and speciation
are actually the same thing.

Did reclassifiing Salmo Gairdneri to Oncorhynchus mykiss reveal any new
truth about the rainbow?


Skwala

"Willi" wrote in message
...
I thought the Redside was your native Rainbow. How about this,
do
Steelhead and nonmigratory Rainbows share the same watershed
and do they
interbreed?
Willi


Willi, I am sorry, I was speaking of the Redband Trout, not the
Redside Trout. The Redband is native to a few streams in
California.
Ernie

"Jonathan Cook" wrote in message
m...
rw wrote in message
...

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishing_0601_04.html

According to this web site, even though the two species look very
similar,
they actually are not as closely related as the similarity suggests. It

That site points to research indicating they can breed and produce
fertile offspring. Sounds like a single species to me. (All other
"scientific" reasons for declaring a new species are, IMO, grounded
only in the scientist's desire for recognition and/or career
advancement ;-)

Jon.

"I have always admired the honest biologist who stated that 'species are
what a good taxonomist says the are'; there was a man who knew how to label
a spade."--Robert W. McFarlane

Wolfgang

"Skwala" wrote in message
...

.....Did reclassifiing Salmo Gairdneri to Oncorhynchus mykiss reveal any
new
truth about the rainbow?

Perhaps not, but at least it draws some much needed attention to the vexing
problem of miscegenation.

Wolfgang
which, of course, brings us right back to ms. jackson's prepossessing
glands.

Willi wrote:


I'm up in the air about that. For me, it's more complicated than that.
Some different species can be bred and produce fertile offspring but it
can only be done in the lab. That seems like different species to me.
Some different species can breed and produce fertile offspring on their
own but don't in the wild because of different behavioral patterns.
These too seem like different species to me.


There's evidence that in the Skagit river there are three natural
populations, Dollies, Bulls, and hybreds. There are also cutthroat and
rainbow trout, and hybreds of these. Both populations of hybreds are
viable, I don't know the details about their numbers, and how much
breeding the hybreds actually do.

Apparently there are significant enough differences in the genes that
they stick to the notion that bulls and dollies are different species.
I'll know more next week.

Chas
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JR wrote:
Thomas Gnauck wrote:

I have always been told that the only difference between a Dolly and
a Bull
was that the Dolly was "sea run"
(similar to the rainbow/steelhead)
Are there actual detectable genetic differences?
I have never heard of the anal adipose alignment identification what
are the
other identifiers but it seems a very sketchy
way of calling a bull a bull and then implanting it?


Here's a concise layman's guide to a few phenotypic differences, with
short reference to studies on the genetic differences:

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishing_0601_04.html

They are not nearly as closely related as the great physical
resemblance
would lead you to believe.


I'm a bit concerned about the info on that site. The biologist I
talked to didn't think the anal ray count was diagnostic. I am sure
that the anadromous distinction doesn't hold. Both species are
comfortable in both fresh and salt water, and wander back and forth at
will.

From what I've read, you need to do a genetic analysis to be certain
which species youi have in your hand. These taxonomic differences
aren't entirely reliable.

Chas
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Willi wrote:

Question for you West coast guys.

Do Redside Rainbows and Steelhead share any watersheds?

If so do they interbreed?

The Deschutes in Oregon is the home of the Redsides rainbow. It's
actually a rainbow/cutthroat cross that developed long ago when there
was a landslide that blocked upstream migration on the Columbia. I
can't remember how long ago it was, but at least thousands of years if
not tens of thousands.

The Deschutes is also famous for their steelhead. The populations are
distinct, despite spawning in the same parts of the river. If there
are hybreds, they are few enough in number to not disturb the gene
pools. I'm sure they can interbreed and produce viable offspring. The
redside is the same species as rainbows and steelhead. I think these
breeds are no more different from each other than Italians, Greeks, and
Spaniards.

Chas
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"David Snedeker" wrote:


What about the "Dollies" on the Graywolf, a trib of the Dungeness? Are
they
actually Bull Trout?


I'll ask Sam on Tuesday. He said no dollies on the costal rivers, but
the Graywolf empties into the straits, so we'll have to ask. Check out
your pictures of them, maybe you can tell if the leading ray of the
anal fin goes farther back than the adipose fin. Andy and I caught 3
bulls on the Hoh Thursday, all of them had the longer anal fin.

Chas
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