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  #11  
Old May 15th, 2005, 06:05 AM
Bill McKee
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Posts: n/a
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There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own
ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the bank in
a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller machine, arced to the
wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping to the banker and screwing him
up for life. You put a couple of hundred thousand volts and even minimal
amperage and you have lots of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current
and you have 50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are
reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner and
rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along electric fences.
Growing up in California, we did not see much lighting, but I remember the
first TV antenna I saw that had been hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and
there was a 3'x3' hole blown in the roof. Big energy.
Bill

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
First, most lightning strikes never leave an indication.
Lightning is a high power but rarely a typically high energy
event. Well over 90% of trees struck during a US Forestry
study showed any indication of that direct lightning strike.

Second, to be damaged, the appliance must have both an
incoming and outgoing electrical path. It is electricity.
Some forget this. For example, they think lightning comes in
on phone line, damages a modem, then stops. Electricity does
not work that way. To have damage, first lightning passes
through everything in a path. Only later is something, still
in that path, damaged. To appreciate why some things are
damaged and others are not, one must first learn the complete
electrical path.

It is an electrical path from cloud to earth, then through
earth to charges maybe located miles distant. An appliance is
damaged when it becomes path of an electrical circuit from
cloud to distant earthborne charges.

Third, a figure from the NIST demonstrates how lightning can
damage electronics:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

In this case, the problem is created by utility wires
entering from the different directions. Same problem can be
created when utility wires are not earthed to a common earth
ground. IOW take those incoming AC electric and phone lines
in that figure. Separate the phone line ground from AC
electric ground. Now lightning strikes a nearby tree (or cell
phone tower) on right side. Electricity travels right to left
in that figure. It rises up on phone line ground, passes
destructively through the fax machine, then drops back to
earth on AC electric ground. This is but another reason why
buildings must have a single point ground.

Fourth, sometimes the lightning strike you saw was also
forking to strike other nearby wires. These wires even out in
the street are like antenna connections directly into every
(non-radio) appliance. This is but another possible incoming
path. What would be the outgoing path to earth ground?
Lightning damages appliances because that appliance is in a
good electrical path to earth.

We never stop that electricity. We earth it before that
destructive transient can find a path inside the building. A
concept that Ben Franklin demonstrates in 1752. Give
lightning a better path to earth and it will not take a
destructive path through a church steeple (or your cable box).

Nothing facetious in your damage. Some things were damaged
because lightning found a complete electrical path through
that appliance. Fields from the nearby strike did not cause
those problems.

Unfortunately, you now know what appliances were connected
to improperly earthed incoming utility wires. How are they
earthed? Earthing is how future damage can be eliminated.
Effective protection costs far less that plug-in surge
protectors.

Joshuall wrote:
Shane,
thanks. . . thought i was going nuts. !

--
God Bless America

Josh The Bad Bear



  #12  
Old May 16th, 2005, 01:26 AM
w_tom
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You are confusing power (watts) with energy (joules).

A human cannot push a nail into wood. A backhoe can force
that nail into a block of wood. Clearly big energy must be
required. Why does a simple 20 oz hammer, driven by nothing
more than a human arm, do same in one hit? Does the human
arm suddenly output high energy? Of course not. Again, don't
confuse power with energy. Lightning is a high power event,
but does not have the high energy that so many assume. This
confusion between power and energy is another source of so
many myths about lightning.

Using your own numbers, that 50,000 watts would be only 2
joules. Not even enough energy to light a 7 watt Christmas
tree light for one second. So where is the high energy?

Again, well over 90% of trees known to be struck by
lightning left no appreciable indication. Why? Most direct
lightning strikes are not high energy. Don't confuse this
statement with energy elsewhere in the event.

Energy content is not relevant to the OP's event. Lightning
found destructive paths to earth ground because the human
still has not installed (earthed) effective protection.
(Plug-in protectors also are not effective protection.) He
has damaged appliances. That means lightning electricity was
permitted inside the house to find circuits both into and out
of those appliances that were damaged. We still don't build
new homes as if the transistor exists. Therefore the
homeowner is often stuck fixing the problem - and often
without honest or accurate information.

Up front is the fundamental fact. Earthing is the
protection. Lightning seeks earth ground either via
destructive paths inside the house OR via safer paths
(provided by humans) that don't enter the structure.
Protection is only as effective as the earth ground.

Bill McKee wrote:
There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own
ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the
bank in a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller
machine, arced to the wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping
to the banker and screwing him up for life. You put a couple of
hundred thousand volts and even minimal amperage and you have lots
of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current and you have
50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are
reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner
and rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along
electric fences. Growing up in California, we did not see much
lighting, but I remember the first TV antenna I saw that had been
hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and there was a 3'x3' hole blown
in the roof. Big energy.
Bill

  #13  
Old May 16th, 2005, 06:11 AM
Bill McKee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes,
Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that 50000 watts
over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage. And that damage
takes power. It takes only very short pulse from a very large laser to
trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion. An atom bomb only fissions for
an extremely short time, but lots of power is generated. As well as lots of
energy generated. And a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small
nail, but not a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of
energy expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and
lighting has no power, just lots of energy.


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
You are confusing power (watts) with energy (joules).

A human cannot push a nail into wood. A backhoe can force
that nail into a block of wood. Clearly big energy must be
required. Why does a simple 20 oz hammer, driven by nothing
more than a human arm, do same in one hit? Does the human
arm suddenly output high energy? Of course not. Again, don't
confuse power with energy. Lightning is a high power event,
but does not have the high energy that so many assume. This
confusion between power and energy is another source of so
many myths about lightning.

Using your own numbers, that 50,000 watts would be only 2
joules. Not even enough energy to light a 7 watt Christmas
tree light for one second. So where is the high energy?

Again, well over 90% of trees known to be struck by
lightning left no appreciable indication. Why? Most direct
lightning strikes are not high energy. Don't confuse this
statement with energy elsewhere in the event.

Energy content is not relevant to the OP's event. Lightning
found destructive paths to earth ground because the human
still has not installed (earthed) effective protection.
(Plug-in protectors also are not effective protection.) He
has damaged appliances. That means lightning electricity was
permitted inside the house to find circuits both into and out
of those appliances that were damaged. We still don't build
new homes as if the transistor exists. Therefore the
homeowner is often stuck fixing the problem - and often
without honest or accurate information.

Up front is the fundamental fact. Earthing is the
protection. Lightning seeks earth ground either via
destructive paths inside the house OR via safer paths
(provided by humans) that don't enter the structure.
Protection is only as effective as the earth ground.

Bill McKee wrote:
There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own
ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the
bank in a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller
machine, arced to the wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping
to the banker and screwing him up for life. You put a couple of
hundred thousand volts and even minimal amperage and you have lots
of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current and you have
50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are
reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner
and rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along
electric fences. Growing up in California, we did not see much
lighting, but I remember the first TV antenna I saw that had been
hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and there was a 3'x3' hole blown
in the roof. Big energy.
Bill



  #14  
Old May 16th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Carlos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We had a chimney hit. Interesting how that happened as I am a Ham Radio
operator. I have a tower in the backyard upon which the antennas
actually were overhead of the chimney. Any energy on the tower and
cabling apparently was bled off in the grounding system. But the carbon
in the chimney must have been the draw for part or all of the strike.
Brick chimney's do not expand well and in our case the top 6 to 7 feet
split. We had shattered bricks all over the roof and a path for water
into the house which is how we found that event.

In the past we have lost modems and satellite receivers. All due to the
pulse generated by a strike to a tree across the street. We have
underground phone lines here. Add to that the large amount of phone
wiring in many homes and you have a big antenna. Lightning is hard on
modems. Certain phones and answering machines also go out from time to
time. I have been meaning to replace all the phone company twisted pair
with CAT5-E cabling in the hopes that the tighter twisted cable might
have a higher impedance and prevent lightning from easily finding a path
to ground for the pulse.

We have not lost any more surge bars or had any non-phone related
appliance damaged since installing a surge protection unit in the
breaker box. The unit I bought was manufactured by ICE.

Any outlet involved in your event should be checked. The heating could
have loosened the connection inside.
  #15  
Old May 16th, 2005, 05:48 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From Colin Baliss "Transmission & Distribution Electrical
Engineering":
Although lightning strikes have impressive voltage and current
values (typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)
the energy content of the discharge is relatively low and most
of the damage to power plant is caused by 'power follow-through
current'.


Martin A Uman All About Lightning
Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along
the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves,
leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for
immediate use or storage.


Accurately provided were joules for lightning strike numbers
you had provided - an extremely low energy event. Atom bombs
are completely irrelevant. And a human hand cannot push a
common nail into construction wood. You have even reversed
facts from previously reply. I did not say "lighting has no
power, just lots of energy." Even the 'nail in wood' example
does not demonstrate "no power ... lots of energy". Please
read with more care. Meanwhile people who actually do this
stuff are quoted above.

The OP defines a lightning strike that the author even
witnessed. He demonstrates what is standard in most lightning
strikes and why effective protection is required. He said:
I walked around outside and cannot see any evidence that the
lightning hit the house or even the ground. I thought if it
did it would at least leave a burn mark.


That OP simply repeats what was well proven by the US
Forestry Service.

Bill McKee wrote:
Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes,
Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that
50000 watts over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage.
And that damage takes power. It takes only very short pulse from
a very large laser to trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion.
An atom bomb only fissions for an extremely short time, but lots
of power is generated. As well as lots of energy generated. And
a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small nail, but not
a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of energy
expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and
lighting has no power, just lots of energy.

  #16  
Old May 16th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Bill McKee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds to
thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled off allows
lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every lighting strike
causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same as BTU, watt-hours,
horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source. As sto nails, even a
common 16p construction nil can be forced partially in to a wood stud by
hand. Enough to hold it in place for a hand held hammer to strike it and
drive it into the wood. In otherwords the hammer as an extension of the
hand / arm does a good job of driving in the nail.
Bill


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
From Colin Baliss "Transmission & Distribution Electrical
Engineering":
Although lightning strikes have impressive voltage and current
values (typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)
the energy content of the discharge is relatively low and most
of the damage to power plant is caused by 'power follow-through
current'.


Martin A Uman All About Lightning
Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along
the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves,
leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for
immediate use or storage.


Accurately provided were joules for lightning strike numbers
you had provided - an extremely low energy event. Atom bombs
are completely irrelevant. And a human hand cannot push a
common nail into construction wood. You have even reversed
facts from previously reply. I did not say "lighting has no
power, just lots of energy." Even the 'nail in wood' example
does not demonstrate "no power ... lots of energy". Please
read with more care. Meanwhile people who actually do this
stuff are quoted above.

The OP defines a lightning strike that the author even
witnessed. He demonstrates what is standard in most lightning
strikes and why effective protection is required. He said:
I walked around outside and cannot see any evidence that the
lightning hit the house or even the ground. I thought if it
did it would at least leave a burn mark.


That OP simply repeats what was well proven by the US
Forestry Service.

Bill McKee wrote:
Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes,
Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that
50000 watts over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage.
And that damage takes power. It takes only very short pulse from
a very large laser to trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion.
An atom bomb only fissions for an extremely short time, but lots
of power is generated. As well as lots of energy generated. And
a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small nail, but not
a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of energy
expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and
lighting has no power, just lots of energy.



  #17  
Old May 17th, 2005, 01:19 AM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill McKee's own numbers for 50,000 watts was not even 5
joules of energy. Could not light a 7 watt Christmas tree
bulb for even one second. Attack the messenger rather than
correct his own numbers? How one can hype half truths and
myths. Watts is not energy; as any engineer would have known.

Why does the nail get driven into wood with so little
energy? High power applied for a very short time period. An
example provided to demonstrate how something so destructive
(or constructive) does not require high energy - as Bill McKee
assumes. Worse still, Bill's own numbers for lightning
defined a low energy event. Somehow one must 'feel' it was
high energy only because something was damaged. He could not
even bother to first do the math.

Somehow Bill has confused "(typically hundreds to
thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)" - a high power event - as if
it were a high energy event. But then even that professional
defined it as not a high energy event. Bill forgot to quote
that part. An engineer would understand the difference
between power and energy which means Bill's claim of an
engineering education is also suspect.

Meanwhile the OP demonstrates how a low energy event such as
a lightning strike - so low in energy as to not cause damage -
can still make a direct connection to and damage household
appliances. His damage associated with a lightning strike
that left no indication is the topic of this discussion - and
not Bill McKee's hyped confusion about power and energy.

A modification of a figure from the NIST demonstrated one
way this high power, low energy lightning strike could damage
numerous household appliances. A lightning strike was such
low energy as to not even leave indications - as is so typical
of a majority of CG lightning strikes. And yet household
appliances were unnecessarily damaged.

Learning and correcting how the house was earthed would
avoid future damage. The energy content of a lightning strike
being totally irrelevant to Joshuall's post and long term
solution.

Bill McKee wrote:
You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds
to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled
off allows lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every
lighting strike causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same
as BTU, watt-hours, horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source.
As sto nails, even a common 16p construction nil can be forced
partially in to a wood stud by hand. Enough to hold it in place for
a hand held hammer to strike it and drive it into the wood. In
otherwords the hammer as an extension of the hand / arm does a good
job of driving in the nail.

  #18  
Old May 18th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Bill McKee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee's own numbers for 50,000 watts was not even 5
joules of energy. Could not light a 7 watt Christmas tree
bulb for even one second. Attack the messenger rather than
correct his own numbers? How one can hype half truths and
myths. Watts is not energy; as any engineer would have known.

Why does the nail get driven into wood with so little
energy? High power applied for a very short time period. An
example provided to demonstrate how something so destructive
(or constructive) does not require high energy - as Bill McKee
assumes. Worse still, Bill's own numbers for lightning
defined a low energy event. Somehow one must 'feel' it was
high energy only because something was damaged. He could not
even bother to first do the math.

Somehow Bill has confused "(typically hundreds to
thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)" - a high power event - as if
it were a high energy event. But then even that professional
defined it as not a high energy event. Bill forgot to quote
that part. An engineer would understand the difference
between power and energy which means Bill's claim of an
engineering education is also suspect.

Meanwhile the OP demonstrates how a low energy event such as
a lightning strike - so low in energy as to not cause damage -
can still make a direct connection to and damage household
appliances. His damage associated with a lightning strike
that left no indication is the topic of this discussion - and
not Bill McKee's hyped confusion about power and energy.

A modification of a figure from the NIST demonstrated one
way this high power, low energy lightning strike could damage
numerous household appliances. A lightning strike was such
low energy as to not even leave indications - as is so typical
of a majority of CG lightning strikes. And yet household
appliances were unnecessarily damaged.

Learning and correcting how the house was earthed would
avoid future damage. The energy content of a lightning strike
being totally irrelevant to Joshuall's post and long term
solution.

Bill McKee wrote:
You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds
to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled
off allows lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every
lighting strike causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same
as BTU, watt-hours, horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source.
As sto nails, even a common 16p construction nil can be forced
partially in to a wood stud by hand. Enough to hold it in place for
a hand held hammer to strike it and drive it into the wood. In
otherwords the hammer as an extension of the hand / arm does a good
job of driving in the nail.


Plonk you the idiot. I admit I have an engineering degree and a patent. I
admit you are the smartest person in the world and lighting does not do any
damage.


  #19  
Old April 9th, 2011, 12:04 AM
lerryboshman lerryboshman is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by FishingBanter: Apr 2011
Posts: 5
Default

Lightning does not strike the building, the eradication of everything. Last year, they put our cell tower from a few hundred meters. Since then, we already have tens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of damage from nearby lightning strikes, but not even close to a direct hit direct hit.
 




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