If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own
ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the bank in a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller machine, arced to the wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping to the banker and screwing him up for life. You put a couple of hundred thousand volts and even minimal amperage and you have lots of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current and you have 50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner and rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along electric fences. Growing up in California, we did not see much lighting, but I remember the first TV antenna I saw that had been hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and there was a 3'x3' hole blown in the roof. Big energy. Bill "w_tom" wrote in message ... First, most lightning strikes never leave an indication. Lightning is a high power but rarely a typically high energy event. Well over 90% of trees struck during a US Forestry study showed any indication of that direct lightning strike. Second, to be damaged, the appliance must have both an incoming and outgoing electrical path. It is electricity. Some forget this. For example, they think lightning comes in on phone line, damages a modem, then stops. Electricity does not work that way. To have damage, first lightning passes through everything in a path. Only later is something, still in that path, damaged. To appreciate why some things are damaged and others are not, one must first learn the complete electrical path. It is an electrical path from cloud to earth, then through earth to charges maybe located miles distant. An appliance is damaged when it becomes path of an electrical circuit from cloud to distant earthborne charges. Third, a figure from the NIST demonstrates how lightning can damage electronics: http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html In this case, the problem is created by utility wires entering from the different directions. Same problem can be created when utility wires are not earthed to a common earth ground. IOW take those incoming AC electric and phone lines in that figure. Separate the phone line ground from AC electric ground. Now lightning strikes a nearby tree (or cell phone tower) on right side. Electricity travels right to left in that figure. It rises up on phone line ground, passes destructively through the fax machine, then drops back to earth on AC electric ground. This is but another reason why buildings must have a single point ground. Fourth, sometimes the lightning strike you saw was also forking to strike other nearby wires. These wires even out in the street are like antenna connections directly into every (non-radio) appliance. This is but another possible incoming path. What would be the outgoing path to earth ground? Lightning damages appliances because that appliance is in a good electrical path to earth. We never stop that electricity. We earth it before that destructive transient can find a path inside the building. A concept that Ben Franklin demonstrates in 1752. Give lightning a better path to earth and it will not take a destructive path through a church steeple (or your cable box). Nothing facetious in your damage. Some things were damaged because lightning found a complete electrical path through that appliance. Fields from the nearby strike did not cause those problems. Unfortunately, you now know what appliances were connected to improperly earthed incoming utility wires. How are they earthed? Earthing is how future damage can be eliminated. Effective protection costs far less that plug-in surge protectors. Joshuall wrote: Shane, thanks. . . thought i was going nuts. ! -- God Bless America Josh The Bad Bear |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
You are confusing power (watts) with energy (joules).
A human cannot push a nail into wood. A backhoe can force that nail into a block of wood. Clearly big energy must be required. Why does a simple 20 oz hammer, driven by nothing more than a human arm, do same in one hit? Does the human arm suddenly output high energy? Of course not. Again, don't confuse power with energy. Lightning is a high power event, but does not have the high energy that so many assume. This confusion between power and energy is another source of so many myths about lightning. Using your own numbers, that 50,000 watts would be only 2 joules. Not even enough energy to light a 7 watt Christmas tree light for one second. So where is the high energy? Again, well over 90% of trees known to be struck by lightning left no appreciable indication. Why? Most direct lightning strikes are not high energy. Don't confuse this statement with energy elsewhere in the event. Energy content is not relevant to the OP's event. Lightning found destructive paths to earth ground because the human still has not installed (earthed) effective protection. (Plug-in protectors also are not effective protection.) He has damaged appliances. That means lightning electricity was permitted inside the house to find circuits both into and out of those appliances that were damaged. We still don't build new homes as if the transistor exists. Therefore the homeowner is often stuck fixing the problem - and often without honest or accurate information. Up front is the fundamental fact. Earthing is the protection. Lightning seeks earth ground either via destructive paths inside the house OR via safer paths (provided by humans) that don't enter the structure. Protection is only as effective as the earth ground. Bill McKee wrote: There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the bank in a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller machine, arced to the wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping to the banker and screwing him up for life. You put a couple of hundred thousand volts and even minimal amperage and you have lots of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current and you have 50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner and rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along electric fences. Growing up in California, we did not see much lighting, but I remember the first TV antenna I saw that had been hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and there was a 3'x3' hole blown in the roof. Big energy. Bill |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes,
Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that 50000 watts over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage. And that damage takes power. It takes only very short pulse from a very large laser to trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion. An atom bomb only fissions for an extremely short time, but lots of power is generated. As well as lots of energy generated. And a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small nail, but not a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of energy expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and lighting has no power, just lots of energy. "w_tom" wrote in message ... You are confusing power (watts) with energy (joules). A human cannot push a nail into wood. A backhoe can force that nail into a block of wood. Clearly big energy must be required. Why does a simple 20 oz hammer, driven by nothing more than a human arm, do same in one hit? Does the human arm suddenly output high energy? Of course not. Again, don't confuse power with energy. Lightning is a high power event, but does not have the high energy that so many assume. This confusion between power and energy is another source of so many myths about lightning. Using your own numbers, that 50,000 watts would be only 2 joules. Not even enough energy to light a 7 watt Christmas tree light for one second. So where is the high energy? Again, well over 90% of trees known to be struck by lightning left no appreciable indication. Why? Most direct lightning strikes are not high energy. Don't confuse this statement with energy elsewhere in the event. Energy content is not relevant to the OP's event. Lightning found destructive paths to earth ground because the human still has not installed (earthed) effective protection. (Plug-in protectors also are not effective protection.) He has damaged appliances. That means lightning electricity was permitted inside the house to find circuits both into and out of those appliances that were damaged. We still don't build new homes as if the transistor exists. Therefore the homeowner is often stuck fixing the problem - and often without honest or accurate information. Up front is the fundamental fact. Earthing is the protection. Lightning seeks earth ground either via destructive paths inside the house OR via safer paths (provided by humans) that don't enter the structure. Protection is only as effective as the earth ground. Bill McKee wrote: There is so much energy in a lighting bolt, that it creates it's own ionization path to ground. Reason that a banker sitting inside the bank in a chair, and the lighting hit the drive through teller machine, arced to the wall and came out the 115V ac outlet, jumping to the banker and screwing him up for life. You put a couple of hundred thousand volts and even minimal amperage and you have lots of energy. 100,000 volts and 0.5 amps of current and you have 50,000 Watts of energy. As to needing a ground, there are reports of "ball Lighting" coming through the nose of an airliner and rolling down the aisle. Same ball lighting will roll along electric fences. Growing up in California, we did not see much lighting, but I remember the first TV antenna I saw that had been hit by lighting. Top of a motel, and there was a 3'x3' hole blown in the roof. Big energy. Bill |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
We had a chimney hit. Interesting how that happened as I am a Ham Radio
operator. I have a tower in the backyard upon which the antennas actually were overhead of the chimney. Any energy on the tower and cabling apparently was bled off in the grounding system. But the carbon in the chimney must have been the draw for part or all of the strike. Brick chimney's do not expand well and in our case the top 6 to 7 feet split. We had shattered bricks all over the roof and a path for water into the house which is how we found that event. In the past we have lost modems and satellite receivers. All due to the pulse generated by a strike to a tree across the street. We have underground phone lines here. Add to that the large amount of phone wiring in many homes and you have a big antenna. Lightning is hard on modems. Certain phones and answering machines also go out from time to time. I have been meaning to replace all the phone company twisted pair with CAT5-E cabling in the hopes that the tighter twisted cable might have a higher impedance and prevent lightning from easily finding a path to ground for the pulse. We have not lost any more surge bars or had any non-phone related appliance damaged since installing a surge protection unit in the breaker box. The unit I bought was manufactured by ICE. Any outlet involved in your event should be checked. The heating could have loosened the connection inside. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
From Colin Baliss "Transmission & Distribution Electrical
Engineering": Although lightning strikes have impressive voltage and current values (typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) the energy content of the discharge is relatively low and most of the damage to power plant is caused by 'power follow-through current'. Martin A Uman All About Lightning Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves, leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for immediate use or storage. Accurately provided were joules for lightning strike numbers you had provided - an extremely low energy event. Atom bombs are completely irrelevant. And a human hand cannot push a common nail into construction wood. You have even reversed facts from previously reply. I did not say "lighting has no power, just lots of energy." Even the 'nail in wood' example does not demonstrate "no power ... lots of energy". Please read with more care. Meanwhile people who actually do this stuff are quoted above. The OP defines a lightning strike that the author even witnessed. He demonstrates what is standard in most lightning strikes and why effective protection is required. He said: I walked around outside and cannot see any evidence that the lightning hit the house or even the ground. I thought if it did it would at least leave a burn mark. That OP simply repeats what was well proven by the US Forestry Service. Bill McKee wrote: Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes, Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that 50000 watts over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage. And that damage takes power. It takes only very short pulse from a very large laser to trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion. An atom bomb only fissions for an extremely short time, but lots of power is generated. As well as lots of energy generated. And a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small nail, but not a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of energy expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and lighting has no power, just lots of energy. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds to
thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled off allows lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every lighting strike causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same as BTU, watt-hours, horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source. As sto nails, even a common 16p construction nil can be forced partially in to a wood stud by hand. Enough to hold it in place for a hand held hammer to strike it and drive it into the wood. In otherwords the hammer as an extension of the hand / arm does a good job of driving in the nail. Bill "w_tom" wrote in message ... From Colin Baliss "Transmission & Distribution Electrical Engineering": Although lightning strikes have impressive voltage and current values (typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) the energy content of the discharge is relatively low and most of the damage to power plant is caused by 'power follow-through current'. Martin A Uman All About Lightning Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves, leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for immediate use or storage. Accurately provided were joules for lightning strike numbers you had provided - an extremely low energy event. Atom bombs are completely irrelevant. And a human hand cannot push a common nail into construction wood. You have even reversed facts from previously reply. I did not say "lighting has no power, just lots of energy." Even the 'nail in wood' example does not demonstrate "no power ... lots of energy". Please read with more care. Meanwhile people who actually do this stuff are quoted above. The OP defines a lightning strike that the author even witnessed. He demonstrates what is standard in most lightning strikes and why effective protection is required. He said: I walked around outside and cannot see any evidence that the lightning hit the house or even the ground. I thought if it did it would at least leave a burn mark. That OP simply repeats what was well proven by the US Forestry Service. Bill McKee wrote: Watts are an power / energy measurement. Just like Joules, dynes, Horsepower. True that true power would be Watt-hours. But that 50000 watts over a couple of milliseconds can do tremendous damage. And that damage takes power. It takes only very short pulse from a very large laser to trigger a hydrogen pellet to begin fusion. An atom bomb only fissions for an extremely short time, but lots of power is generated. As well as lots of energy generated. And a human can push a nail into a block of wood. Small nail, but not a railroad spike (large nail). Just different amounts of energy expended. Oh well, I guess my engineering degree is invalid, and lighting has no power, just lots of energy. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Bill McKee's own numbers for 50,000 watts was not even 5
joules of energy. Could not light a 7 watt Christmas tree bulb for even one second. Attack the messenger rather than correct his own numbers? How one can hype half truths and myths. Watts is not energy; as any engineer would have known. Why does the nail get driven into wood with so little energy? High power applied for a very short time period. An example provided to demonstrate how something so destructive (or constructive) does not require high energy - as Bill McKee assumes. Worse still, Bill's own numbers for lightning defined a low energy event. Somehow one must 'feel' it was high energy only because something was damaged. He could not even bother to first do the math. Somehow Bill has confused "(typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)" - a high power event - as if it were a high energy event. But then even that professional defined it as not a high energy event. Bill forgot to quote that part. An engineer would understand the difference between power and energy which means Bill's claim of an engineering education is also suspect. Meanwhile the OP demonstrates how a low energy event such as a lightning strike - so low in energy as to not cause damage - can still make a direct connection to and damage household appliances. His damage associated with a lightning strike that left no indication is the topic of this discussion - and not Bill McKee's hyped confusion about power and energy. A modification of a figure from the NIST demonstrated one way this high power, low energy lightning strike could damage numerous household appliances. A lightning strike was such low energy as to not even leave indications - as is so typical of a majority of CG lightning strikes. And yet household appliances were unnecessarily damaged. Learning and correcting how the house was earthed would avoid future damage. The energy content of a lightning strike being totally irrelevant to Joshuall's post and long term solution. Bill McKee wrote: You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled off allows lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every lighting strike causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same as BTU, watt-hours, horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source. As sto nails, even a common 16p construction nil can be forced partially in to a wood stud by hand. Enough to hold it in place for a hand held hammer to strike it and drive it into the wood. In otherwords the hammer as an extension of the hand / arm does a good job of driving in the nail. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
"w_tom" wrote in message ... Bill McKee's own numbers for 50,000 watts was not even 5 joules of energy. Could not light a 7 watt Christmas tree bulb for even one second. Attack the messenger rather than correct his own numbers? How one can hype half truths and myths. Watts is not energy; as any engineer would have known. Why does the nail get driven into wood with so little energy? High power applied for a very short time period. An example provided to demonstrate how something so destructive (or constructive) does not require high energy - as Bill McKee assumes. Worse still, Bill's own numbers for lightning defined a low energy event. Somehow one must 'feel' it was high energy only because something was damaged. He could not even bother to first do the math. Somehow Bill has confused "(typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA)" - a high power event - as if it were a high energy event. But then even that professional defined it as not a high energy event. Bill forgot to quote that part. An engineer would understand the difference between power and energy which means Bill's claim of an engineering education is also suspect. Meanwhile the OP demonstrates how a low energy event such as a lightning strike - so low in energy as to not cause damage - can still make a direct connection to and damage household appliances. His damage associated with a lightning strike that left no indication is the topic of this discussion - and not Bill McKee's hyped confusion about power and energy. A modification of a figure from the NIST demonstrated one way this high power, low energy lightning strike could damage numerous household appliances. A lightning strike was such low energy as to not even leave indications - as is so typical of a majority of CG lightning strikes. And yet household appliances were unnecessarily damaged. Learning and correcting how the house was earthed would avoid future damage. The energy content of a lightning strike being totally irrelevant to Joshuall's post and long term solution. Bill McKee wrote: You better learn to read. From your own source "(typically hundreds to thousands of kV and 10-100 kA) " energy that does not get bled off allows lots of energy to attack your tree or house. Not every lighting strike causes damage, but enough do. You use joules, same as BTU, watt-hours, horsepower, foot-pounds. All an energy source. As sto nails, even a common 16p construction nil can be forced partially in to a wood stud by hand. Enough to hold it in place for a hand held hammer to strike it and drive it into the wood. In otherwords the hammer as an extension of the hand / arm does a good job of driving in the nail. Plonk you the idiot. I admit I have an engineering degree and a patent. I admit you are the smartest person in the world and lighting does not do any damage. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Lightning does not strike the building, the eradication of everything. Last year, they put our cell tower from a few hundred meters. Since then, we already have tens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of damage from nearby lightning strikes, but not even close to a direct hit direct hit.
|
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Strike Indicators - Brian Chan article | Padishar Creel | Fly Fishing | 5 | May 20th, 2004 03:54 AM |
Strike Indicator Blind Test | Mark Tinsky | Fly Fishing | 2 | April 29th, 2004 07:54 AM |
Strike Putty? | Doug Kanter | Fly Fishing | 27 | April 21st, 2004 08:41 PM |
Strike King #3X Lures? | Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers | Bass Fishing | 15 | February 18th, 2004 07:06 PM |
Off Topic - 4 - Wheelers | RGarri7470 | Bass Fishing | 4 | December 20th, 2003 01:54 AM |