waterboarding

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:36:40 -0500, JR wrote:

For the most part, that's true. But the thing is, we *are* no
better than those we call our enemies and we never have been.
The myth of some inherent ethical or moral superiority adhering
to Americans because they're American is just that: a myth.
Which is exactly *why* the guiding principles of the
Constitution--and our ability (so far) to submit to them--are so
important.

The fact that so many are so ready and willing to find excuses
for throwing out them the moment the going gets rough only
underscores, to my mind, just *how* important it is to keep and
protect them at all cost--rather than rely on knee-jerk hubris
about our own personal specialness.

John, our country has a history of mis-use of the Constitution.

Slavery being the most outlandish.

Treatment of native Americans

Roosevelt's internment of Japanese Americans.

Robert Kennedy wire tapping Americans.

I am sure that torture was used against the Germans and Japanese
prisoners in WWII

Waterboarding, if it obtains information that saves lives, is not only
ok, it is imperative if we are to win this war (not Iraq or
Afghanistan). If the information is there we HAVE to obtain it, or
lose many lives.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...ml#cnnSTCVideo

I know, I know, it is Newt and none of you liberals like Newt, but
listen with an open heart and mind. I hope what he says does not
happen, but I am deathly afraid it will.

Dave
EOT for me.

On 29-Dec-2007, Fishin Technician
wrote:

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Let me be perfectly clear about this:

Jesus s Christ - if you believe all that bull ****
Did not die for me!

And the Ameriacn soldier does not fight for the American people or for me in
Iraq and Afghnistan
What the **** do I care about Iraq and Afghanistan but you are too stupid
and duped by Patriotism to relaize that they are fighting for the
almightydollar
Thats it - Thats all there is
The Almighty dollar.

To make Bush, Cheney, Rove, Quail et al - even wealthier
If you do not see this you are a blind fool!

Fred

Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue.

QUOTE

The Right Fright:
Fear and Terror
by Lawrence M. Hinman
Baltimore Sun, Op-ed, October 21, 2004


Those with no fear are fools, underestimating real dangers or
overestimating their own abilities. Those with too much fear see
threats as greater than they are, and they often underestimate their
ability to respond effectively to danger. They are afraid to risk life
and limb but fail to understand that these are often of less value
than honor, integrity, freedom and other similar values.

Our goal in life - and in foreign policy as well - is not to be
fearless but to have appropriate fears: to fear the right thing at the
right time, in the right proportion and in the right way.

Terrorism seeks to create disproportionate and distorted fear, and
terrorists gain power that would otherwise be far beyond their grasp
through the manipulation and distortion of our fears. They seek to
have us fear the wrong things, to do so in a way that is
disproportionate to the actual level of threat and to act in
inappropriate ways in response to those fears. In so doing, they gain
a control over our lives far beyond that justified by their actual
power.

Terrorists are seldom alone in the manipulation of fear, and one of
the great ironies of terrorism is that its power is often increased by
politicians and media who see the manipulation of fear as furthering
their own agendas. These politicians may join in exaggerating and
distorting our fears and then - here is where they part company from
the terrorists themselves - they depict themselves as the answer to
these inflated and distorted fears.

They exaggerate the seriousness of the threat in order to highlight
themselves as the answer to these growing concerns. News media,
concerned with increasing market share, ensure that this message
reaches the widest possible audience. Critics are often depicted as
out of touch with the real threats confronting a country, as leading
the country to an eventual cataclysmic disaster.

In this process, instigated by terrorists but amplified by local
politicians and news media, our appropriate fears are distorted. We
begin to fear the wrong things, to fear them in a way disproportionate
to their actual level of threat and to pursue courses of action that
respond to these misperceived threats. In the process, other important
fears either recede into the background or are attached to
inappropriate objects and ineffective patterns of response.

For example, we stop fearing the loss of civil liberties and instead
fear, in an exaggerated way, terrorist attacks. We fear that our way
of life is under attack, but then we curtail quintessentially American
freedoms in response to this fear.

We Americans need to recover our appropriate fears. We need to be
afraid of the potential damage that can be done by terrorists, but we
need to recognize that there are far greater threats to American life
and limb, threats that persist day after day.

Of the 208 terrorist attacks launched in the last year, only a handful
of them were directed against the United States; of the 625 people
killed in terrorist attacks, 35 were Americans. At the same time, many
other threats - depicted far less prominently in the news and
discussed far less frequently by politicians - have put more Americans
at greater risk, including threats to the environment, inadequate
health care resources and a reduction of funding for education. Yet we
largely have ignored those threats and have been indifferent to the
development of effective responses to them.

There is no shortage of greater threats. More Americans died from
traffic fatalities in September 2001 than in the attacks on the twin
towers. Every three days, tobacco kills the same number of people who
died in the World Trade Center attacks. About 195,000 Americans die
every year from avoidable medical mistakes - the equivalent of a 9/11
attack every six days.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt said that the only thing we have to
fear is fear itself. But fear is not a bad thing. In fact, it can be a
fitting and helpful response to genuine threats. The absence of fear
can lead to miscalculations and mistakes. But fear must be directed
toward the real threats and must be proportionate to the actual level
of danger.

When we allow our fears to be hijacked, to be distorted by the
terrorists and by politicians who manipulate those exaggerated and
highly selective fears for their own purposes, we no longer have
appropriate fears.

When we allow ourselves to embark on courses of action that exacerbate
the threats against us and trample some of our most precious freedoms
in the process, we allow a distorted and disproportionate fear to lead
us down a path that is ultimately destructive to ourselves and to our
most fundamental values.

We do not need to stop being afraid. We just need to be afraid of the
right things and in the right way.

UNQUOTE

http://ethics.sandiego.edu/Applied/Military/torture.asp

By fighting among yourselves, and being extremely hateful to each
other on these issues, you are giving the terrorists and the
politicians who would use the situation to control you, even more
power, and furthering their aims.

MC

"Mike" wrote


By fighting among yourselves, and being extremely hateful to each
other on these issues, you are giving the terrorists and the
politicians who would use the situation to control you, even more
power, and furthering their aims.

MC


I won't often waste the time to post " I agree"

But,

most of the greatest damage that has been done to this country since 9-10-01
has been done by ourselves, to ourselves.

It is cowardly to willingly give up important ideals and values that should
define our strengths, to gain some tiny illusion of increased physical
security, and cowards can't retain freedom for long.

------------------

Certainly and obviously there are real dangers and increased real world
security such as scans in airports and such are fitting to that danger.
Nobody I know denies the real threat, but many I know magnify it to the
point they become one themselves.

The real key to fighting terrorism is friends ... normal people willing to
go out of their way to warn us about the weirdos and wackos out there, it's
called human intelligence, I believe, It's a kind of Neighborhood
Watch, and it demands that WE be decent enough that others are willing to
help us and to make the effort to report the odd and the suspect.

Yet "we" via our leaders have made far more new enemies that friends the
last 7 years. And we have become enemies to ourselves, wasting valuable
fighting spirit on each other, when we need it all for the real enemies.

------------------

Each time we, as individuals, and in mass, via our elected representatives,
weaken our nation by further dividing it, we are the tools of the enemy.
Disagreement, discussion, hard won compromise, sure. But nastiness
beyond reason, nastiness that further divides, nastiness that actually makes
reason nearly impossible, nastiness that stalls our government and all but
destroys even a silly forum on the 'Net ... these are the tools of bin
Laden and his allies, whether knowingly used as such, or not.

We need to all work to make America stronger ... and it should be clear I
don't mean just buy more bombs ... we are crumbling from within.

"United we Stand ..... " and it never meant "in perfect agreement" ...
rather more like "watching each other's backs regardless ........"

Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
et...
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And then Kenny has a hissy fit.

Op

On Dec 31, 12:39 am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip

Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

You are a typical terrorist. Prepared to use any means in your power
to force your views on others, you lie, use propaganda, coerce,
threaten, and ridicule them, until they knuckle under or give up. It
is just as well you don´t have any real power, or any credibility left
on here. In the real world you would be very quickly eliminated if you
tried to behave in such a fashion. You only do it here because you can
get away with it with seeming impunity.

Just as one can not wage war on the Fortenberry´s of this world,
merely resist them to the last. One can not wage war on terror. Terror
is an emotion, an emotion which engenders panic.

You can resist the effects of terrorism, and avoid panic, by not
allowing yourself to be terrified by either terrorists or
politicians.

A hand full of terrorists is not a serious threat to any major
country. Panic as a result of terrorist actions is. The loss of civil
liberties initiated by politicians trying to gain greater control is.
Large panicked sections of the population is.

These things are all easily avoided by sensible people.

If you are against terrorism, as every civilised person must be, then
you must also be against torture, because torture is merely terrorism
on an individual.

People who torture others are terrorists by definition. They wish to
gain information or other things, maybe even pleasure, by terrifying
or coercing somebody into giving them what they want.

That is exactly what the terrorists want as well. Just like
Fortenberry.

Do not give it to them.

MC

Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist.
the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
news
Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist. the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

And another hissy fit dispalyed by Kenny.

Op

On Dec 31, 1:19 am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Don´t like to get into politics here, but this is a basic human rights
isssue. snip
Yeah right, just what we need, a "basic human rights" lecture from
a homophobic bigot. You've shown your true colors here on roff and
when it comes to basic human rights you just don't get it.

You are a typical terrorist.
the usual drivel snipped

A typical terrorist ? SPLORK VANG MU !!

You're a hoot and a half Your Loony Mikeness.

Carry on.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Unfortunately for you. I am right, and your behaviour continually
reinforces that. Quite a few people here are also perfectly well aware
that I am right. You use every single opportunity to attack and
denigrate me, and others who disagree with you, even ruining perfectly
normal threads with your nonsense. Like all terrorists, you are not
only fanatically convinced that you are right, you will do anything at
all to force others into accepting it, you also have a screw loose, as
no normal person would do these things.

I will never give in to you, you dont worry me at all any more,
neither does your propaganda and lies, you are among other things a
proven liar many times over, and per definition an ignorant bigot.
Every time you post this stuff you merely convince more people of your
fanaticism and imbalance.

MC