No fish

On Sep 20, 2:29*pm, Bill Grey wrote:
In message , Ken Fortenberry
writes

Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. *They call it a gift. *The stockers
only last about three weeks. *So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. *The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.

Quite so Ken!

Quite no, Bill.....and kennie. It's a numbers game, and that's a
fact......but it isn't necessarily a simple binary either/or
proposition. If you dump ten thousand three-pound trout in a stream
that is all of three feet wide and a mile or two long, they will
indeed wreak havoc. But three pound fish can't get into some of the
places that three inch natives might. And the bubbas will be along
shortly to hoover most of their brethren out of the stream shortly
anyway. Then again, that isn't really all that realistic scenario, is
it? No, it isn't. But outlining absurd extremes is a useful means of
creeping up on the parameters (yeah, I know the mathematicians claim
that word as their sole property.....tought ****) of a problem or
issue. At the end of the day, making decisions about resource
allocation is a messy and almost always thankless task. And the pros
learn as they go because the situation changes constantly.
Pronouncements about what happens and what does not, about what should
happen and what should not, about what is occurring and what is not,
how it should be dealt with and how not, emanating from rank amateur
observers should, of course, receive all the attention and approbation
that they merit......but, really, not much more than that.


One local club tends to stock with brown up to 3 lbs in
weight. *To me that is ridiculous. *For the kids that catch them then
it's all good fun but ecologically the river just can't sustain such
creatures when you consider the few indigenous fish that survive don't
grow to more than about 12 inches - if they're lucky.

The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources routinely stocks trout
in waters in which their indigenous cousins never grow to more than
six inches, as a part of their Urban Fishing program. You see the
probelm with a little bit of information? No, not yet, you don't.
The rest of the story is that these trout are planted in waters that
will not support trout at all.....they are stagnant urban ponds that,
as often as not, can barely support carp and/or bullheads. Even
mosquitoes look at some of them askance. Any trout that survive the
hordes of fishermen for a couple of weeks are almost certain to die of
oxygen starvation as the long hot waters of summer arrive.

So?

So, the **** is ALWAYS more complicated than almost anyone here is
willing to admit.....or perhaps capable of comprehending. Sometimes a
boy wonders.

giles

Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. They call it a gift. The stockers
only last about three weeks. So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.

Hi Ken,

There is only about a half a mile open to the public. When they
stock, armies and armies of fisherman show up and scrub the thing
clean. You can tell the holdovers by the giant pink stripe,
lack of other color, messed up fins that never grow back,
and spots on their tummies. The wild ones have thin stripes,
no spots on their tummies, bronze backs, pretty fins, and get
really, really ****ed when you hook them. I catch about two
wild to one holdover after the stream gets scrubbed. You have
to know where to look. There is about five miles of downstream
that is private that you can not get to for wild ones to migrate from.

-T

On Sep 20, 7:13*pm, Todd wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Todd wrote:
My section of river only gets stocked once a year. Twice if they have
too many trout at the hatchery. *They call it a gift. *The stockers
only last about three weeks. *So, most of the time I have the river
all to my self and I play with the remaining wild trout. *The wild ones
are easy to tell apart by their fins, colors, and attitude.

If your river is stocked annually it's likely your river does
not have a sustaining population of wild trout. I don't know
where you are, but most states have stopped dumping stockers
in waters with wild trout. What's left after three weeks or
into the next season would be holdovers.

Hi Ken,

There is only about a half a mile open to the public. *When they
stock, armies and armies of fisherman show up and scrub the thing
clean. *You can tell the holdovers by the giant pink stripe,
lack of other color, messed up fins that never grow back,
and spots on their tummies. *The wild ones have thin stripes,
no spots on their tummies, bronze backs, pretty fins, and get
really, really ****ed when you hook them. *I catch about two
wild to one holdover after the stream gets scrubbed. *You have
to know where to look. *There is about five miles of downstream
that is private that you can not get to for wild ones to migrate from.

And thus we are to take it that the stocked fish are as incapable as
we of getting to the elysian waters?

g.

David LaCourse wrote:
d;o) You haven't been fishing very long, have you. There is a hatch
almost every day. I just walked down to the river and there are bwo and
tan egg laying caddis all over the place. A few fish rising, and some
takes on emergers. After dinner I will tie on a size 20 soft hackle PT
and catch fish. When the light is almost gone I will switch to a dry
tan caddis, size 16

For about 50 years or more. Oh, I am sure things are hatching around
me, but I am never there when it happens. I only get a few hours
every week or two if I finish my rounds early. I fished my river for
three years before I caught a thing. Now, when they are stocked
I catch 18 in two hours. After that, 3 to 4 in and hour and a half.
and 4 or 5 that I do not get the pleasure of meeting. Total
fun at the end of a long day working.

Trout in their feed lies foraging off the drift act
much different than trout feeding off a hatch. Ozzie
has a bunch of great video on the subject in his
"the underwater world of trout: feeding lies".
In the drift, they do not like each other's company.

Here is a difference between a "drifter" and a "hatcher":
a "hatcher" would fish a Stone right side up. A "drifter"
would fish it upside down. There is great video of this
in Cutter's "Bugs of the Underworld".



A tip from a "drifter": do not forget the white nymph.
Nymphs shuck their exoskeletons several times a year as
they grow. Until they readjust, they are cream colored.
If I can not get my trout to pay attention, I switch to
white or cream color. More yummy, less crunch.

(??????)

I meant that a nymph's that have shucked the old skeletons
before their new ones are in place are easier to catch,
eat, and less bran


I don't fish for stocked trout, and no, I am not an eliteist.

Not elitist. You are blessed to be close enough to a wild
river. They are like two different fish.

Farm raised fish are easier to catch and taste funny. I always
let wild trout go. Most framed raised ones too. I usually only
keep one if it bleeds out on me.

My wild ones get really, really ****ed when you hook them.
Total fun!

-T

Todd wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:
d;o) You haven't been fishing very long, have you. There is a hatch
almost every day. I just walked down to the river and there are bwo
and tan egg laying caddis all over the place. A few fish rising, and
some takes on emergers. After dinner I will tie on a size 20 soft
hackle PT and catch fish. When the light is almost gone I will switch
to a dry tan caddis, size 16

Hi Dave,

I should also mention that I fish in the winter,
just as soon as the ice melts off the rocks
and I am not a risk of killing myself. No
hatch at all in the winter. You must fish
the drift: mainly Stones.

-T

David LaCourse wrote:

I was speaking more about the hopper flies. The only time I've used a
hopper or a Madam X was out west. I took some ugly carp out of the lake
above the Bighorn. It was lots of fun but not very sporting.

You caught carp on a big ugly dry fly? That would have made my day. You
are like totally awesome, dude. Rock on.

You should have used the Madam X on the Middle Fork.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

David LaCourse wrote:

I just walked down to the river and there are bwo and
tan egg laying caddis all over the place.

Hi Dave,

If you were trying to simulate these Caddis in there
nymph phase, what would you use? I have been using Hare's
Ears #14 with some success.

-T

On Sep 17, 10:22*am, Todd wrote:
Conan The Librarian wrote:
On Sep 16, 12:20 pm, Todd wrote:

Man left to his own devices will eventually find the correct path.
I do believe that was Robes Pierre. Look what it
has brought on us: Hitler and his merry band of socialists ~25

* *First of all, Hitler was not a socialist, he was a fascist. *I know
right-wingers (especially your false idol, Rush) are trying to re-
write history and have us believe that Hitler was somehow a left-
winger, but it doesn't fly. *They try to tell us he was socialist
because the party's name had National Socialist in it, but that's no
more the case than the old East Germany being democratic because it
had the word Democrat in its party name, or China being a republic
because it has the name "People's Republic".

Hi Chuck,

Watch the name calling. *You can not convince me by insulting me.
It is also ill mannered.

The NAZI's were both socialist and fascist. * Here is a good reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...rkers%27_Party

The part about them taking over charity and handling it by
the state is the same thing the Soviets did.

* *I don't expect this will do any good, but I'd suggest you read up
on the Social Democrats in Germany in the 1920-30s, and compare and
contrast them to Hitler's National Socialist movement. *The first
people Hitler went after were socialists, communists and other left-
wing types.

You are correct, Hitler ate his competition. *This is what happens
when you get to pick and choose your morality. *The Soviets and
the NAZI's got along fine, dividing up Poland and all, until
Hitler attacked them. *Britain had a hell of a time
getting support for the war out of their socialists
until that attack.

To argue over what flavor of socialist the NAZI were is to
miss my point. *When you get to pick and choose what your
morality is, man's inhumanity to man can be a thing to
behold.

Add up all the number up you can find of all the stupid
things you can think of on all the world's religions
and you will not even scratch the surface of what
any one these above mentioned socialists perpetrated.

What morality did the Soviets use that allowed them
to murder 40 million Ukrainians with a forced famine?
The Soviets picked and choose their morality. *Hint:
good = serves the cause (revolutionary); bad = oppose
the cause (counter revolutionary)

To get folk to following along with them to perpetrate
such inhumanity required the Soviets wipe out those
with built in moral restrains. *(Oooops! Missed a few!)

Can you imagine standing guard over wheat field and
shotting anyone who tried find any leftover kernels
of wheat to feed themselves? *Again, picking
and choosing one morality.

Trust me on this, all the stupid things religious
people have done over the years can not match this.

million murders, the Soviets socialists ~ 70 million murders,
Chinese socialists ~50 million, and on and on. *Osama can only
dream of such numbers.

* *Er, I hate to break it to you, but Osama's whole campaign is based
on religion. *As were the Crusades and the Inquisition.

You really do not see a difference Osama and the rest of
religious people? *You would not step foot in a charity
hospital because of the Crusades? *Do you discount any
and all of the good works Muslins have done because
of Osama?

Look for the good around you that religious people
have done. *Hell, I am speaking to you respectfully
and you call me names.

Please "share" my values and not theirs (I don't mean to imply
you do not).

* *My values say that it is wrong to murder, whether it's in the name
of your god or your government or your country.

And you share these values with me why? *Good that you do. Where did
you get them from? *Somewhere along the line, you got them from
a religious value.

In a free society, that the majority of us (believes of one
stripe or another), come to the table with pre-built
moral restraints, allows us all to be governed with far
less imposed restraint by government. *Makes us a freer
country. *(I do believe the atheist Thomas Paine also made
this point, but I can not find the reference.)

And, dude, be respectful of others beliefs and opinions.
You are a fisherman, which by definition, means you
are suppose to be a "nice guy".

-T

Thank you Todd. My guess is that your mouthing of this latest nonsense
will dissuade some who still doubt that the right-wing madrasas of the
airwaves are harmless. None of you zeolots wants to OWN your fascist
heritage. And others of you are too lazy to factcheck the Rushbirds.

Fact is that folks spouting much the same crap as you were strutting
around in Nazi regalia in the USA before WWII. Yep, your brand of
political poppycock in the USA at that time favored the Fascists. Yep,
big mass rallies, Brown Shirts, Silver Shirts, the German-American
BUND, Jew haters to the man, KKK and the whole nine yards.

Fact is it was the American Socialists, Communists, and plain Nazi
haters who joined up with the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and the George
Washington Brigade to fight the Fascists in Spain. In the USA it was
your crowd of armschair Storm Troopers who tried to block every
American official move to help the Spanish, the Czechs, the Poles, the
Brits and the French. Maybe your nasty Madrasa is just plagerising the
radio diatribes of that great American fascist Father Couglan of the
1930s?

You are one brainwashed puppy.

Dave

On Sep 20, 5:32*pm, Todd wrote:
Todd wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:
d;o) * You haven't been fishing very long, have you. *There is a hatch
almost every day. *I just walked down to the river and there are bwo
and tan egg laying caddis all over the place. *A few fish rising, and
some takes on emergers. *After dinner I will tie on a size 20 soft
hackle PT and catch fish. *When the light is almost gone I will switch
to a dry tan caddis, size 16

Hi Dave,

I should also mention that I fish in the winter,
just as soon as the ice melts off the rocks
and I am not a risk of killing myself. *No
hatch at all in the winter. *You must fish
the drift: mainly Stones.

-T

Wrong again: Baetis and midge hatch in the winter. Ive fished hatches
in a snow storm on the upper Yakima near Cle Elm.

Dave

On Sep 20, 5:28*pm, Todd wrote:
David LaCourse wrote:
d;o) * You haven't been fishing very long, have you. *There is a hatch
almost every day. *I just walked down to the river and there are bwo and
tan egg laying caddis all over the place. *A few fish rising, and some
takes on emergers. *After dinner I will tie on a size 20 soft hackle PT
and catch fish. *When the light is almost gone I will switch to a dry
tan caddis, size 16

For about 50 years or more. * Oh, I am sure things are hatching around
me, but I am never there when it happens. *I only get a few hours
every week or two if I finish my rounds early. *I fished my river for
three years before I caught a thing. *Now, when they are stocked
I catch 18 in two hours. *After that, 3 to 4 in and hour and a half.
and 4 or 5 that I do not get the pleasure of meeting. *Total
fun at the end of a long day working.

Trout in their feed lies foraging off the drift act
much different than trout feeding off a hatch. *Ozzie
has a bunch of great video on the subject in his
"the underwater world of trout: feeding lies".
In the drift, they do not like each other's company.

Here is a difference between a "drifter" and a "hatcher":
a "hatcher" would fish a Stone right side up. *A "drifter"
would fish it upside down. *There is great video of this
in Cutter's "Bugs of the Underworld".



A tip from a "drifter": do not forget the white nymph.
Nymphs shuck their exoskeletons several times a year as
they grow. *Until they readjust, they are cream colored.
If I can not get my trout to pay attention, I switch to
white or cream color. *More yummy, less crunch.

(??????)

I meant that a nymph's that have shucked the old skeletons
before their new ones are in place are easier to catch,
eat, and less bran



I don't fish for stocked trout, and no, I am not an eliteist.

Not elitist. *You are blessed to be close enough to a wild
river. *They are like two different fish.

Farm raised fish are easier to catch and taste funny. *I always
let wild trout go. *Most framed raised ones too. *I usually only
keep one if it bleeds out on me.

My wild ones get really, really ****ed when you hook them.
Total fun!

-T

Todd, I am starting to wonder if you really do much fly fishing or if
this whole deal is your sicko idea of a white lie to promo your also
sicko idea of "ministry." You sometimes sound like you are mouthing
stuff you get from FFing videos. Be careful Todd, Jebus may not like
fibbers.

Dave