knotted leader/tippet help

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:53:43 -0700, rw
wrote:

daytripper wrote:

The "unstraightness" is intrinsic to a double-surgeons knot.
A triple-surgeons knot, otoh, is straight...and prettier, I suppose...

I agree that the triple surgeon's is better, but I'm usually in too much
of a hurry. :-)

Well, I didn't say the triple was "better" - though I conceded it could be
"prettier" ;-) It is stronger, for sure, but not by a whole heck of a lot, if
one ties their doubles correctly.

I use the double for almost all freshwater leaders - the exception being heavy
leaders for fishing river smallies, or fishing the Salmon River in the fall
for some heavy-weight salmon and steelies. For sal****er leaders I use the
stronger triple, as there's no concern about gathering moss and such - or
having trout keep hitting the damned knots ;-)

/daytripper (tomorrow might just be my first time out this year! :-)

"notbob" wrote



, I've lost several feet off my
formerly 4X taper and am now up to a 2X. A couple questions:



two words .... tippet rings

used properly they will all but eliminate this gradual loss of leader and
the need to 're-build'



But,
...... if you'd rather continue to suffer ( along with the majority of fly
fishers that refuse to try these rings :-) ....




......you can jump several sizes and still get a good knot .... using either
a surgeons knot or Gary Borgers 5/7 modification on a blood knot ... Borger
says you can drop down by 60% at each step and it seems to work, for me,
although 'my' leaders ( when I'm masochistic enough to build my own ) have
big jumps in the butt area and smaller ones nearer to the tippet.

.........There are a ton of leader formulas out there ... google, surf, use
that broadband


..........I like Maxima ( the brown stuff ) for most of the leader, RIO for
the tippet ... each part of a leader ( butt, taper, tippet ) has differing
function .... pick materials to suit


but I SUGGEST

buy a RIO 3X leader ... tie on a tippet ring with one of the '100%' knots
( can't remember the name of the one I use )


.... now tie any tippet from 3X to 6X directly to the ring ... if you must
use 7x, either start with a 5X RIO leader and a ring or tie first some 5X
then your 7X to the ring on your 3X ... IF you are throwing streamers, tie
the ring onto a 0X or 1X leader and add tippet to suit your fly .... etc etc
..... I usually use loop to loop to attach leader to line ( except for my
spring creek rod and I always use the same leader on it ) rw, and others
will be along soon to tell you why loop to loop is only for fools l( like
the people at RIO and SA tha now built the loops into their lines :-)

tying your own leaders is a PIA and IMHO best reserved for later in your
fishing career ... master the easy **** first ( and it's not the knoting
that's difficult, it's the formula to choose and the 'why' of same ... you
can't choose a formula to suit you and your fishing until you get decent at
casting and choose a fishing style )


Note: this is the last time I'll suggest you try tippet rings ... you can
lead a notbob to the answer but you can't make him open his eyes and see it
G

On 2008-04-15, daytripper wrote:

The "unstraightness" is intrinsic to a double-surgeons knot.
A triple-surgeons knot, otoh, is straight...and prettier, I suppose...

Not in my experience. I just went in a tied half dozen double-surgeons and
half dozen triples. They both angle off hideously, the double often at 45
deg. No, I worked too damn hard to learn that dang blood clot of a knot and I
shall not be deprived! Besides, it's purty.

nb

"Larry L" wrote

( can't remember the name of the one I use )



Remembered .... Pitzen knot .... give it a try

notbob wrote:
On 2008-04-15, daytripper wrote:


The "unstraightness" is intrinsic to a double-surgeons knot.
A triple-surgeons knot, otoh, is straight...and prettier, I suppose...


Not in my experience. I just went in a tied half dozen double-surgeons and
half dozen triples. They both angle off hideously, the double often at 45
deg. No, I worked too damn hard to learn that dang blood clot of a knot and I
shall not be deprived! Besides, it's purty.

nb

Try pulling the tag ends and the running ends as uniformly and smoothly
as possible. You want the two loops to snug down simultaneously and
uniformly. If you don't do this, the knot will not only be ugly, but weak.

It's very easy to screw up a surgeon's knot while you're tightening it.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2008-04-15, notbob wrote:

Q. Is it practical to drop a couple mils at a time on an all-knot leaders
or should it always be 1 mil at a time?

I just ran across a possible answer to this question. To quote:

"The general rule of thumb is that you can safely skip a single "X" size
when joining monofilament sizes greater than or equal to 4X. When joining
sizes smaller than 4X, you should not skip any sizes. In other words, 4X
would be tied to 5X which would be tied to 6X and so on (assuming, of
course, you want a 6X tippet). Going directly from 4X to 6X is asking for
trouble!"

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com...blood_knot.htm

Although this page IS about blood knots, He doesn't clarify as to whether
this is a good rule of thumb for leader/tippets in general or only in
reference to using blood knots. Comments?

nb

nb

notbob wrote:
On 2008-04-15, notbob wrote:

Q. Is it practical to drop a couple mils at a time on an all-knot leaders
or should it always be 1 mil at a time?


I just ran across a possible answer to this question. To quote:

"The general rule of thumb is that you can safely skip a single "X" size
when joining monofilament sizes greater than or equal to 4X. When joining
sizes smaller than 4X, you should not skip any sizes. In other words, 4X
would be tied to 5X which would be tied to 6X and so on (assuming, of
course, you want a 6X tippet). Going directly from 4X to 6X is asking for
trouble!"

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com...blood_knot.htm

Although this page IS about blood knots, He doesn't clarify as to whether
this is a good rule of thumb for leader/tippets in general or only in
reference to using blood knots. Comments?

nb

nb

I think you're obsessing about this. :-)

Tying 4x to 6x, or 3x to 5x (more common in my case), is just fine.

Quite often I'll clip my leader way back and tie on a long section 4x or
5x for low-drag, deep nymphing. If I see fish rising I'll tie a dry fly
onto the weird, unbalanced leader and it turns over well enough.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2008-04-15, rw wrote:

I think you're obsessing about this. :-)

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that's what flyfishing (is it one or two?) is all
about.

Tying 4x to 6x, or 3x to 5x (more common in my case), is just fine.

Thank you.

nb

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:29:12 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2008-04-15, daytripper wrote:

The "unstraightness" is intrinsic to a double-surgeons knot.
A triple-surgeons knot, otoh, is straight...and prettier, I suppose...

Not in my experience. I just went in a tied half dozen double-surgeons and
half dozen triples. They both angle off hideously, the double often at 45
deg. No, I worked too damn hard to learn that dang blood clot of a knot and I
shall not be deprived! Besides, it's purty.

nb

Well...you are, in fact, very very "new" at this stuff...so your experience
isn't surprising. Practice practice practice.

Also, fwiw, if you ever fish with a guide and start that blood-knot thing on
the stream, you're likely gonna get an earful and a half, as a guide wants his
client to be fishing, not taking forever to tie knots ;-)

/daytripper

notbob wrote:
On 2008-04-15, rw wrote:


I think you're obsessing about this. :-)


Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that's what flyfishing (is it one or two?) is all
about.

That's your stereotype of flyfishing.

It can be a very easy-going pastime at its best.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.