Tuna salad anyone? Death of a Tuna and Deathof a Whale

pearl wrote:


"We do not say that [old hominid] sites look like our chimp
sites. What we do say is some of the flakes we found in some
of the pieces of shatter resemble those found at some of the
technologically simplest [hominid] sites in East Africa," he said.

"The implication is that older hominids practised nut-cracking
like the chimps."

Could be true,, but "Modern" man was a hunter, and killer from the get
go, so was Neanderthal Man, they both ate meat and veggies,, so do I :-)


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

pearl wrote:

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
..
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys.

I was not going to even mention Baboons, meat eating is an accepted
practice for them.


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:


"We do not say that [old hominid] sites look like our chimp
sites. What we do say is some of the flakes we found in some
of the pieces of shatter resemble those found at some of the
technologically simplest [hominid] sites in East Africa," he said.

"The implication is that older hominids practised nut-cracking
like the chimps."

Could be true,, but "Modern" man was a hunter, and killer from the get
go,

How?

'Brown says that pushing the emergence of Homo sapiens from
about 160,000 years ago back to about 195,000 years ago "is
significant because the cultural aspects of humanity in most cases
appear much later in the record - only 50,000 years ago - which
would mean 150,000 years of Homo sapiens without cultural stuff,
such as evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, anything to do with
music (flutes and that sort of thing), needles, even tools. This
stuff all comes in very late, except for stone knife blades, which
appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago, depending on
whom you believe."

Fleagle adds: "There is a huge debate in the archeological literature
regarding the first appearance of modern aspects of behavior such
as bone carving for religious reasons, or tools (harpoons and things),
ornamentation (bead jewelry and such), drawn images, arrowheads.
They only appear as a coherent package about 50,000 years ago,
and the first modern humans that left Africa between 50,000 and
40,000 years ago seem to have had the full set. As modern human
anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes
evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of
the modern skeleton and 'modern behavior.'"
...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223122209.htm

so was Neanderthal Man, they both ate meat and veggies,,

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - The bands of ancient Neanderthals
that struggled throughout Europe during the last Ice Age
faced challenges no tougher than those confronted by the
modern Inuit, or Eskimos.
...
[..] the short lifespans of Neanderthals and evidence of
arthritis in their skeletons suggests that their lives were
extremely difficult.
...
Guatelli-Steinberg has spent the last decade investigating
tiny defects -- linear enamel hypoplasia -- in tooth enamel
from primates, modern and early humans. These defects
serve as markers of periods during early childhood when
food was scarce and nutrition was low.

These tiny horizontal lines and grooves in tooth enamel
form when the body faces either a systemic illness or a
severely deficient diet. In essence, they are reminders of
times when the body's normal process of forming tooth
enamel during childhood simply shut down for a period
of time.

"Looking at these fossilized teeth, you can easily see these
defects that showed Neanderthals periodically struggled
nutritionally," she said. "But I wanted to know if that
struggle was any harder than that of more modern humans."
...
"The evidence shows that Neanderthals were no worse
off than the Inuit who lived in equally harsh environmental
conditions," she said, despite the fact that the Inuit use more
advanced technology.

"It is somewhat startling that Neanderthals weren't suffering
as badly as people had thought, relative to a modern human
group (the Inuits)."
...'
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/neander.htm

The Neanderthals ..... ?? The Inuit don't fare very well either..

'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 27, 916-925, 1974
Bone mineral content of North Alaskan Eskimos
Richard B. Mazess Ph.D.1 and Warren Mather B.S.1
1 From the Bone Mineral Laboratory, Department of Radiology
(Medical Physics), University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison,
Wisconsin 53706
Direct photon absorptiometry was used to measure the bone
mineral content of forearm bones in Eskimo natives of the north
coast of Alaska. The sample consisted of 217 children, 89 adults,
and 107 elderly (over 50 years). Eskimo children had a lower
bone mineral content than United States whites by 5 to 10% but
this was consistent with their smaller body and bone size. Young
Eskimo adults (20 to 39 years) of both sexes were similar to whites,
but after age 40 the Eskimos of both sexes had a deficit of from
10 to 15% relative to white standards. Aging bone loss, which
occurs in many populations, has an earlier onset and greater
intensity in the Eskimos. Nutritional factors of high protein,
high nitrogen, high phosphorus, and low calcium intakes may
be implicated.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/9/916

'First Nations people and Inuit have higher rates of injury,
suicide and diabetes.'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/index_e.html

'Combined, circulatory diseases (23% of all deaths) and injury
(22%) account for nearly half of all mortality among First Nations.
In Canada, circulatory diseases account for 37% of all deaths,
followed by cancer (27%).
...
For First Nations aged 45 years and older, circulatory disease
was the most common cause of death.
...'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/pub..._profil_e.html

'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have
been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance
on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not
least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods
were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during
the interglacials. '
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder..../devensian.htm

'Anthropologically speaking, humans were high consumers of calcium
until the onset of the Agricultural Age, 10,000 years ago. Current
calcium intake is one-quarter to one-third that of our evolutionary diet
and, if we are genetically identical to the Late Paleolithic Homo sapiens,
we may be consuming a calcium-deficient diet our bodies cannot adjust
to by physiologic mechanisms.

The anthropological approach says, with the exception of a few small
changes related to genetic blood diseases, that humans are basically
identical biologically and medically to the hunter-gatherers of the late
Paleolithic Era.17 During this period, calcium content of the diet was
much higher than it is currently. Depending on the ratio of animal to
plant foods, calcium intake could have exceeded 2000 mg per day.17
Calcium was largely derived from wild plants, which had a very high
calcium content; animal protein played a small role, and the use of
dairy products did not come into play until the Agricultural Age
10,000 years ago. Compared to the current intake of approximately
500 mg per day for women age 20 and over in the United States,18
hunter-gatherers had a significantly higher calcium intake and
apparently much stronger bones. As late as 12,000 years ago,
Stone Age hunters had an average of 17-percent more bone density
(as measured by humeral cortical thickness). Bone density also
appeared to be stable over time with an apparent absence of
osteoporosis.17

High levels of calcium excretion via renal losses are seen with both
high salt and high protein diets, in each case at levels common in the
United States.10,11
..
The only hunter-gatherers that seemed to fall prey to bone loss were
the aboriginal Inuit (Eskimos). Although their physical activity level
was high, their osteoporosis incidence exceeded even present-day
levels in the United States. The Inuit diet was high in phosphorus
and protein and low in calcium.20
...'
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/full...alcium4-2.html

so do I :-)

'Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative diseases:
perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59(5 Suppl):
1153S-1161S.
A comprehensive ecologic survey of dietary, life-style, and mortality
characteristics of 65 counties in rural China showed that diets are
substantially richer in foods of plant origin when compared with
diets consumed in the more industrialized, Western societies. Mean
intakes of animal protein (about one-tenth of the mean intake in the
United States as energy percent), total fat (14.5% of energy), and
dietary fiber (33.3 g/d) reflected a substantial preference for foods
of plant origin. Mean plasma cholesterol concentration, at
approximately 3.23-3.49 mmol/L, corresponds to this dietary
life-style. The principal hypothesis under investigation in this paper
is that chronic degenerative diseases are prevented by an aggregate
effect of nutrients and nutrient-intake amounts that are commonly
supplied by foods of plant origin. The breadth and consistency of
evidence for this hypothesis was investigated with multiple intake-
biomarker-disease associations, which were appropriately adjusted.
There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives...in-health.html

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
..
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys.

I was not going to even mention Baboons, meat eating is an accepted
practice for them.

Their habitat has been described as flat, semi-arid savannah with
occasional trees or woodland, with highly seasonal rainfall. Not
a place where succulent fruits could be expected to be abundant.
So, yet, ..
"their diet emphasizes roots, tubers, grass seeds and fruits."
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~bramblet/ant301/eight.html

As you mention baboons....

'No Time for Bullies: Baboons Retool Their Culture
By NATALIE ANGIER
Published: April 13, 2004

Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of
bullies and bad habits. Freak cyclones helped destroy Kublai Khan's
brutal Mongolian empire, for example, while the Black Death of the
14th century capsized the medieval theocracy and gave the Renaissance
a chance to shine.

Among a troop of savanna baboons in Kenya, a terrible outbreak of
tuberculosis 20 years ago selectively killed off the biggest, nastiest and
most despotic males, setting the stage for a social and behavioral
transformation unlike any seen in this notoriously truculent primate.

In a study appearing today in the journal PloS Biology (online at
www.plosbiology.org), researchers describe the drastic temperamental and
tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent
members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males
that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon
troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed
there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left
behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of
males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the
females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural
swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy,
and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats,
swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit.

Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two
decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died
or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the
case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home,
while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The
persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must
somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe.

"We don't yet understand the mechanism of transmittal," said Dr. Robert M.
Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford, "but the jerky
new guys are obviously learning, `We don't do things like that around here.'"
Dr. Sapolsky wrote the report with his colleague and wife, Dr. Lisa J. Share.

Dr. Sapolsky, who is renowned for his study of the physiology of stress,
said that the Forest Troop baboons probably felt as good as they acted.
Hormone samples from the monkeys showed far less evidence of stress in
even the lowest-ranking individuals, when contrasted with baboons living
in more rancorous societies.

The researchers were able to compare the behavior and physiology of the
contemporary Forest Troop primates to two control groups: a similar-size
baboon congregation living nearby, called the Talek Troop, and the Forest
Troop itself from 1979 through 1982, the era that might be called Before
Alpha Die-off, or B.A.D.

"It's a really fine, thorough piece of work, with the sort of methodology
and lucky data sets that you can only get from doing long-term field
research," said Dr. Duane Quiatt, a primatologist at the University of
Colorado at Denver and a co-author with Vernon Reynolds of the 1993
book "Primate Behaviour: Information, Social Knowledge and the Evolution
of Culture."

The new work vividly demonstrates that, Putumayo records notwithstanding,
humans hold no patent on multiculturalism. As a growing body of research
indicates, many social animals learn from one another and cultivate regional
variants in skills, conventions and fashions. Some chimpanzees crack open
their nuts with a stone hammer on a stone anvil; others prefer wood hammers
on wood anvils. The chimpanzees of the Tai forest rain-dance; those of the
Gombe tickle themselves. Dr. Jane Goodall reported a fad in one chimpanzee
group: a young female started wiggling her hands, and before long, every
teen chimp was doing likewise.

(Page 2 of 2)

But in the baboon study, the culture being conveyed is less a specific
behavior or skill than a global code of conduct. "You can more accurately
describe it as the social ethos of group," said Dr. Andrew Whiten, a
professor of evolutionary and developmental psychology at the University
of St. Andrews in Scotland who has studied chimpanzee culture. "It's an
attitude that's being transmitted."

The report also offers real-world proof of a principle first demonstrated in
captive populations of monkeys: that with the right upbringing, diplomacy is
infectious. Dr. Frans B. M. de Waal, the director of the Living Links Center
at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center of Emory University in
Atlanta, has shown that if the normally pugilistic rhesus monkeys are reared
with the more conciliatory stumptailed monkeys, the rhesus monkeys learn
the value of tolerance, peacemaking and mutual hip-hugging.

Dr. de Waal, who wrote an essay to accompany the new baboon study,
said in a telephone interview, "The good news for humans is that it looks
like peaceful conditions, once established, can be maintained," he said.

"And if baboons can do it," he said, "why not us? The bad news is that you
might have to first knock out all the most aggressive males to get there."

Jerkiness or worse certainly seems to be a job description for ordinary male
baboons. The average young male, after wheedling his way into a new troop
at around age 7, spends his prime years seeking to fang his way up the
hierarchy; and once he's gained some status, he devotes many a leisure hour
to whimsical displays of power at scant personal cost. He harasses and
attacks females, which weigh half his hundred pounds and lack his
thumb-thick canines, or he terrorizes the low-ranking males he knows cannot
retaliate.

Dr. Barbara Smuts, a primatologist at the University of Michigan who wrote
the 1985 book "Sex and Friendship in Baboons," said that the females in the
troop she studied received a serious bite from a male annually, maybe losing
a strip of flesh or part of an ear in the process. As they age and lose
their strength, however, males may calm down and adopt a new approach to
group living, affiliating with females so devotedly that they keep their
reproductive opportunities going even as their ranking in the male hierarchy
plunges.

For their part, female baboons, which live up to 25 years - compared with
the male's 18 - inherit their rank in the gynocracy from their mothers and
so spend less time fighting for dominance. They do, however, readily battle
females from outside the fold, for they, not the males, are the keepers of
turf and dynasty.

The new-fashioned Forest Troop is no United Nations, or even the average
frat house. Its citizens remain highly aggressive and argumentative, and the
males still obsess over hierarchy. "We're talking about baboons here," said
Dr. Sapolsky.

What most distinguishes this congregation from others is that the males
resist taking out their bad moods on females and underlings. When a
dominant male wants to pick a fight, he finds someone his own size and
rank. As a result, a greater percentage of male-male conflicts in the Forest
Troop occur between closely ranked individuals than is seen in the control
populations, where the bullies seek easier pickings. Moreover, Forest Troop
males of all ranks spend more time grooming and being groomed, and just
generally huddling close to troop mates, than do their counterpart males in
the study.

Interestingly, the male faces in the Forest Troop may have changed over
time, but the relative numbers have not. Ever since the tuberculosis
epidemic killed half the adult males, the ratio has remained skewed, with
twice as many females as males. Yet the researchers have demonstrated
that the troop's sexual complexion alone cannot explain its character.
Examining other troops with a similar preponderance of females, the
Stanford scientists saw no evidence of the Forest Troop's relative amity.

Dr. Sapolsky has no idea how long the good times will last. "I confess I'm
rooting for the troop to stay like this forever, but I worry about how
vulnerable they may be," he said. "All it would take is two or three jerky
adolescent males entering at the same time to tilt the balance and destroy
the culture."

http://tinyurl.com/3hn4m

From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm

"David H. Lipman" wrote in message news:T096h.4761$5P2.4751@trnddc02...
From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

No. Demonstrating beyond any reasonable doubt, that humans
are not naturally carnivorous omnivores, omnivorous as you are.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

Going by that 'logic', carnivores should be way smarter than us.

You are wrong. I suggest you try to get over it pretty smartish.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.

You are in denial. That is the hallmark indication of addiction. !

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm

pearl wrote:




'Brown says that pushing the emergence of Homo sapiens from
about 160,000 years ago back to about 195,000 years ago "is
significant because the cultural aspects of humanity in most cases
appear much later in the record - only 50,000 years ago - which
would mean 150,000 years of Homo sapiens without cultural stuff,
such as evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, anything to do with
music (flutes and that sort of thing), needles, even tools. This
stuff all comes in very late, except for stone knife blades, which
appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago, depending on
whom you believe."

Fleagle adds: "There is a huge debate in the archeological literature
regarding the first appearance of modern aspects of behavior such
as bone carving for religious reasons, or tools (harpoons and things),
ornamentation (bead jewelry and such), drawn images, arrowheads.
They only appear as a coherent package about 50,000 years ago,
and the first modern humans that left Africa between 50,000 and
40,000 years ago seem to have had the full set. As modern human
anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes
evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of
the modern skeleton and 'modern behavior.'"

So this proves that man's "intelligence" did not mature (the making of
tools, not just killing and butchering tools) until he started eating
meat. This also is a good theory why vegetarians today, are loosing
their cognitive thinking ability, they are also actually loosing their
"basic survival" instinks
..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223122209.htm

so was Neanderthal Man, they both ate meat and veggies,,

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - The bands of ancient Neanderthals
that struggled throughout Europe during the last Ice Age
faced challenges no tougher than those confronted by the
modern Inuit, or Eskimos.
..
[..] the short lifespans of Neanderthals and evidence of
arthritis in their skeletons suggests that their lives were
extremely difficult.
..
Guatelli-Steinberg has spent the last decade investigating
tiny defects -- linear enamel hypoplasia -- in tooth enamel
from primates, modern and early humans. These defects
serve as markers of periods during early childhood when
food was scarce and nutrition was low.

These tiny horizontal lines and grooves in tooth enamel
form when the body faces either a systemic illness or a
severely deficient diet. In essence, they are reminders of
times when the body's normal process of forming tooth
enamel during childhood simply shut down for a period
of time.

"Looking at these fossilized teeth, you can easily see these
defects that showed Neanderthals periodically struggled
nutritionally," she said. "But I wanted to know if that
struggle was any harder than that of more modern humans."
..
"The evidence shows that Neanderthals were no worse
off than the Inuit who lived in equally harsh environmental
conditions," she said, despite the fact that the Inuit use more
advanced technology.

"It is somewhat startling that Neanderthals weren't suffering
as badly as people had thought, relative to a modern human
group (the Inuits)."

And in both cases their "primary" source of food, if not their total
source, was MEAT !
..'
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/neander.htm

The Neanderthals ..... ?? The Inuit don't fare very well either..

'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 27, 916-925, 1974
Bone mineral content of North Alaskan Eskimos
Richard B. Mazess Ph.D.1 and Warren Mather B.S.1
1 From the Bone Mineral Laboratory, Department of Radiology
(Medical Physics), University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison,
Wisconsin 53706
Direct photon absorptiometry was used to measure the bone
mineral content of forearm bones in Eskimo natives of the north
coast of Alaska. The sample consisted of 217 children, 89 adults,
and 107 elderly (over 50 years). Eskimo children had a lower
bone mineral content than United States whites by 5 to 10% but
this was consistent with their smaller body and bone size. Young
Eskimo adults (20 to 39 years) of both sexes were similar to whites,
but after age 40 the Eskimos of both sexes had a deficit of from
10 to 15% relative to white standards. Aging bone loss, which
occurs in many populations, has an earlier onset and greater
intensity in the Eskimos. Nutritional factors of high protein,
high nitrogen, high phosphorus, and low calcium intakes may
be implicated.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/9/916

'First Nations people and Inuit have higher rates of injury,
suicide and diabetes.'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/index_e.html

'Combined, circulatory diseases (23% of all deaths) and injury
(22%) account for nearly half of all mortality among First Nations.
In Canada, circulatory diseases account for 37% of all deaths,
followed by cancer (27%).
..
For First Nations aged 45 years and older, circulatory disease
was the most common cause of death.
..'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/pub..._profil_e.html

'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have
been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance
on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not
least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods
were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during
the interglacials. '
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder..../devensian.htm

'Anthropologically speaking, humans were high consumers of calcium
until the onset of the Agricultural Age, 10,000 years ago. Current
calcium intake is one-quarter to one-third that of our evolutionary diet
and, if we are genetically identical to the Late Paleolithic Homo sapiens,
we may be consuming a calcium-deficient diet our bodies cannot adjust
to by physiologic mechanisms.

The anthropological approach says, with the exception of a few small
changes related to genetic blood diseases, that humans are basically
identical biologically and medically to the hunter-gatherers of the late
Paleolithic Era.17 During this period, calcium content of the diet was
much higher than it is currently. Depending on the ratio of animal to
plant foods, calcium intake could have exceeded 2000 mg per day.17
Calcium was largely derived from wild plants, which had a very high
calcium content; animal protein played a small role, and the use of
dairy products did not come into play until the Agricultural Age
10,000 years ago. Compared to the current intake of approximately
500 mg per day for women age 20 and over in the United States,18
hunter-gatherers had a significantly higher calcium intake and
apparently much stronger bones. As late as 12,000 years ago,
Stone Age hunters had an average of 17-percent more bone density
(as measured by humeral cortical thickness). Bone density also
appeared to be stable over time with an apparent absence of
osteoporosis.17

High levels of calcium excretion via renal losses are seen with both
high salt and high protein diets, in each case at levels common in the
United States.10,11
..
The only hunter-gatherers that seemed to fall prey to bone loss were
the aboriginal Inuit (Eskimos). Although their physical activity level
was high, their osteoporosis incidence exceeded even present-day
levels in the United States. The Inuit diet was high in phosphorus
and protein and low in calcium.20
..'
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/full...alcium4-2.html

so do I :-)

'Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative diseases:
perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59(5 Suppl):
1153S-1161S.
A comprehensive ecologic survey of dietary, life-style, and mortality
characteristics of 65 counties in rural China showed that diets are
substantially richer in foods of plant origin when compared with
diets consumed in the more industrialized, Western societies. Mean
intakes of animal protein (about one-tenth of the mean intake in the
United States as energy percent), total fat (14.5% of energy), and
dietary fiber (33.3 g/d) reflected a substantial preference for foods
of plant origin. Mean plasma cholesterol concentration, at
approximately 3.23-3.49 mmol/L, corresponds to this dietary
life-style. The principal hypothesis under investigation in this paper
is that chronic degenerative diseases are prevented by an aggregate
effect of nutrients and nutrient-intake amounts that are commonly
supplied by foods of plant origin. The breadth and consistency of
evidence for this hypothesis was investigated with multiple intake-
biomarker-disease associations, which were appropriately adjusted.
There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates.


I eat MEAT three times a day, I'm 53 years old, my cholesterol
level,,,,,, ""91"" ,,,,, which is lower than most vegetarians. There is
a whole lot more involved in cholesterol levels than just eating, or not
eating meat

Every morning I have two eggs and four strips of bacon, for lunch their
will be either ground beef or chicken, for dinner, Steak, pork, chicken
or fish , with about 40 venison meals through the year. I also consume
at least 1/2 lb of "real" butter a week

I have ZERO heart disease, but I still had them do an echo cardiogram at
my last physical, it was perfect.

My Doctor says that all this is impossible, because of my diet. No, Not
really, I eat huge quantities of powdered GARLIC, I eat it on, and in
everything. I have for my whole life.

I have lost 115 lbs over the last two years, and kept it off, what I
stopped eating was bread and sugar or anything made with processed
flour, and processed sugar,, those are the two things that will kill
you, not meat



--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:


restore

"The implication is that older hominids practised nut-cracking
like the chimps."

Could be true,, but "Modern" man was a hunter, and killer from the get
go,

How?

end restore

'Brown says that pushing the emergence of Homo sapiens from
about 160,000 years ago back to about 195,000 years ago "is
significant because the cultural aspects of humanity in most cases
appear much later in the record - only 50,000 years ago - which
would mean 150,000 years of Homo sapiens without cultural stuff,
such as evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, anything to do with
music (flutes and that sort of thing), needles, even tools. This
stuff all comes in very late, except for stone knife blades, which
appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago, depending on
whom you believe."

Fleagle adds: "There is a huge debate in the archeological literature
regarding the first appearance of modern aspects of behavior such
as bone carving for religious reasons, or tools (harpoons and things),
ornamentation (bead jewelry and such), drawn images, arrowheads.
They only appear as a coherent package about 50,000 years ago,
and the first modern humans that left Africa between 50,000 and
40,000 years ago seem to have had the full set. As modern human
anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes
evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of
the modern skeleton and 'modern behavior.'"

So this proves that man's "intelligence" did not mature (the making of
tools, not just killing and butchering tools) until he started eating
meat. This also is a good theory why vegetarians today, are loosing
their cognitive thinking ability, they are also actually loosing their
"basic survival" instinks

Evolution happens over very, very long periods of time, not overnight.
A history of millions of years of progressive adaptation and learning
brought primates to hominids to man to the point where more complex
tasks could be devised and carried out, and necessity in a cold climate
presented new challenges which drove technological advance - in the
making of tools and weapons for *needed* food in the form of meat,
warm clothing *needed* to survive in colder conditions, and houses.
It was not meat and hunting per se that brought about technological
advance, - environmental conditions demanded change in the culture.
And, when stuck indoors with others, rather than foraging in loose
groups in the big outdoors, you'll understand that there is a lot more
time to sit and communicate ... stories and legends are born.. making
carvings, paintings, and so on ... there's time to imagine and visualize ..

..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223122209.htm

so was Neanderthal Man, they both ate meat and veggies,,

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - The bands of ancient Neanderthals
that struggled throughout Europe during the last Ice Age
faced challenges no tougher than those confronted by the
modern Inuit, or Eskimos.
..
[..] the short lifespans of Neanderthals and evidence of
arthritis in their skeletons suggests that their lives were
extremely difficult.
..
Guatelli-Steinberg has spent the last decade investigating
tiny defects -- linear enamel hypoplasia -- in tooth enamel
from primates, modern and early humans. These defects
serve as markers of periods during early childhood when
food was scarce and nutrition was low.

These tiny horizontal lines and grooves in tooth enamel
form when the body faces either a systemic illness or a
severely deficient diet. In essence, they are reminders of
times when the body's normal process of forming tooth
enamel during childhood simply shut down for a period
of time.

"Looking at these fossilized teeth, you can easily see these
defects that showed Neanderthals periodically struggled
nutritionally," she said. "But I wanted to know if that
struggle was any harder than that of more modern humans."
..
"The evidence shows that Neanderthals were no worse
off than the Inuit who lived in equally harsh environmental
conditions," she said, despite the fact that the Inuit use more
advanced technology.

"It is somewhat startling that Neanderthals weren't suffering
as badly as people had thought, relative to a modern human
group (the Inuits)."

And in both cases their "primary" source of food, if not their total
source, was MEAT !

Yes.

..'
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/neander.htm

The Neanderthals ..... ?? The Inuit don't fare very well either..

'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 27, 916-925, 1974
Bone mineral content of North Alaskan Eskimos
Richard B. Mazess Ph.D.1 and Warren Mather B.S.1
1 From the Bone Mineral Laboratory, Department of Radiology
(Medical Physics), University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison,
Wisconsin 53706
Direct photon absorptiometry was used to measure the bone
mineral content of forearm bones in Eskimo natives of the north
coast of Alaska. The sample consisted of 217 children, 89 adults,
and 107 elderly (over 50 years). Eskimo children had a lower
bone mineral content than United States whites by 5 to 10% but
this was consistent with their smaller body and bone size. Young
Eskimo adults (20 to 39 years) of both sexes were similar to whites,
but after age 40 the Eskimos of both sexes had a deficit of from
10 to 15% relative to white standards. Aging bone loss, which
occurs in many populations, has an earlier onset and greater
intensity in the Eskimos. Nutritional factors of high protein,
high nitrogen, high phosphorus, and low calcium intakes may
be implicated.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/9/916

'First Nations people and Inuit have higher rates of injury,
suicide and diabetes.'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/index_e.html

'Combined, circulatory diseases (23% of all deaths) and injury
(22%) account for nearly half of all mortality among First Nations.
In Canada, circulatory diseases account for 37% of all deaths,
followed by cancer (27%).
..
For First Nations aged 45 years and older, circulatory disease
was the most common cause of death.
..'
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/pub..._profil_e.html

'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have
been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance
on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not
least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods
were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during
the interglacials. '
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder..../devensian.htm

'Anthropologically speaking, humans were high consumers of calcium
until the onset of the Agricultural Age, 10,000 years ago. Current
calcium intake is one-quarter to one-third that of our evolutionary diet
and, if we are genetically identical to the Late Paleolithic Homo sapiens,
we may be consuming a calcium-deficient diet our bodies cannot adjust
to by physiologic mechanisms.

The anthropological approach says, with the exception of a few small
changes related to genetic blood diseases, that humans are basically
identical biologically and medically to the hunter-gatherers of the late
Paleolithic Era.17 During this period, calcium content of the diet was
much higher than it is currently. Depending on the ratio of animal to
plant foods, calcium intake could have exceeded 2000 mg per day.17
Calcium was largely derived from wild plants, which had a very high
calcium content; animal protein played a small role, and the use of
dairy products did not come into play until the Agricultural Age
10,000 years ago. Compared to the current intake of approximately
500 mg per day for women age 20 and over in the United States,18
hunter-gatherers had a significantly higher calcium intake and
apparently much stronger bones. As late as 12,000 years ago,
Stone Age hunters had an average of 17-percent more bone density
(as measured by humeral cortical thickness). Bone density also
appeared to be stable over time with an apparent absence of
osteoporosis.17

High levels of calcium excretion via renal losses are seen with both
high salt and high protein diets, in each case at levels common in the
United States.10,11
..
The only hunter-gatherers that seemed to fall prey to bone loss were
the aboriginal Inuit (Eskimos). Although their physical activity level
was high, their osteoporosis incidence exceeded even present-day
levels in the United States. The Inuit diet was high in phosphorus
and protein and low in calcium.20
..'
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/full...alcium4-2.html

so do I :-)

'Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative diseases:
perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59(5 Suppl):
1153S-1161S.
A comprehensive ecologic survey of dietary, life-style, and mortality
characteristics of 65 counties in rural China showed that diets are
substantially richer in foods of plant origin when compared with
diets consumed in the more industrialized, Western societies. Mean
intakes of animal protein (about one-tenth of the mean intake in the
United States as energy percent), total fat (14.5% of energy), and
dietary fiber (33.3 g/d) reflected a substantial preference for foods
of plant origin. Mean plasma cholesterol concentration, at
approximately 3.23-3.49 mmol/L, corresponds to this dietary
life-style. The principal hypothesis under investigation in this paper
is that chronic degenerative diseases are prevented by an aggregate
effect of nutrients and nutrient-intake amounts that are commonly
supplied by foods of plant origin. The breadth and consistency of
evidence for this hypothesis was investigated with multiple intake-
biomarker-disease associations, which were appropriately adjusted.
There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates.


I eat MEAT three times a day, I'm 53 years old, my cholesterol
level,,,,,, ""91"" ,,,,, which is lower than most vegetarians. There is
a whole lot more involved in cholesterol levels than just eating, or not
eating meat

Every morning I have two eggs and four strips of bacon, for lunch their
will be either ground beef or chicken, for dinner, Steak, pork, chicken
or fish , with about 40 venison meals through the year. I also consume
at least 1/2 lb of "real" butter a week

I have ZERO heart disease, but I still had them do an echo cardiogram at
my last physical, it was perfect.

My Doctor says that all this is impossible, because of my diet. No, Not
really, I eat huge quantities of powdered GARLIC, I eat it on, and in
everything. I have for my whole life.

I have lost 115 lbs over the last two years, and kept it off, what I
stopped eating was bread and sugar or anything made with processed
flour, and processed sugar,, those are the two things that will kill
you, not meat

Anecdotal evidence. Hmm to that. Sorry.

'Am J Clin Nutr 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):532S-538S
Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease,
and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California
Seventh-day Adventists.
Fraser GE. Center for Health Research and the Department of
Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Loma Linda University, CA USA.

Results associating diet with chronic disease in a cohort of 34192
California Seventh-day Adventists are summarized. Most Seventh-day
Adventists do not smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, and there is a wide
range of dietary exposures within the population. About 50% of those
studied ate meat products 1 time/wk or not at all, and vegetarians
consumed more tomatoes, legumes, nuts, and fruit, but less coffee,
doughnuts, and eggs than did nonvegetarians. Multivariate analyses
showed significant associations between beef consumption and fatal
ischemic heart disease (IHD) in men [relative risk (RR) = 2.31 for
subjects who ate beef or =3 times/wk compared with vegetarians],
significant protective associations between nut consumption and fatal
and nonfatal IHD in both sexes (RR approximately 0.5 for subjects
who ate nuts or =5 times/wk compared with those who ate nuts
1 time/wk), and reduced risk of IHD in subjects preferring whole-grain
to white bread. The lifetime risk of IHD was reduced by approximately
31% in those who consumed nuts frequently and by 37% in male
vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians. Cancers of the colon and
prostate were significantly more likely in nonvegetarians (RR of 1.88
and 1.54, respectively), and frequent beef consumers also had higher
risk of bladder cancer. Intake of legumes was negatively associated
with risk of colon cancer in nonvegetarians and risk of pancreatic
cancer. Higher consumption of all fruit or dried fruit was associated
with lower risks of lung, prostate, and pancreatic cancers.
Cross-sectional data suggest vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists have
lower risks of diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and arthritis than
nonvegetarians. Thus, among Seventh-day Adventists, vegetarians are
healthier than nonvegetarians but this cannot be ascribed only to the
absence of meat. - PMID: 10479227'

David H. Lipman wrote:
From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when
extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.



You can't reason with a vegetarian, they have lost the protein in their
diet, that allows their brains to function properly.
Prime example, they complain about people killing animals, yet they can
no longer, see animals killing animals, animals even torturing other
animals, just watch a house cat play with a mouse, or killer whales
tossing "injured" baby seals in the air for hours, before finally eating
them. Animals kill more animals, than humans do. It's the way nature
works, and we humans are part of nature.

I hunt, and I fish, I can't stand to see a creature suffer needlessly, I
dispatch them as quickly as possible. That deer I kill, I saved another
2 deer from starving to death, slowly, during the winter, we must control
their numbers, or starvation , and disease will make them suffer
horribly. There is documented evidence of this, when Pennsylvania
banned deer hunting for ten years, they lost tens of thousands of deer
to starvation and disease each year, tell me these deer did not suffer,
needlessly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your vegetarians can not see these facts any longer, they loose that
part or reasoning in their brains,, nothing we meat eaters can do to
change their thinking, until they have a couple of hamburgers. They
suffer from a chemical imbalance of the brain, and you can't fix it with
the antidepressants most of them take. It takes Meat, to solve that
problem. How do I know that,, well my daughter went though that phase a
few years back, she decided to stop eating meat, within 6 months she was
condemning me for eating meat, and hunting, and fishing. One day my wife
started slipping a bit of bacon fat into her veggies, a week later, she
started finely grinding a little meat into them, in a month she was
normal again, and started hunting, and fishing again, and eating meat
daily. She now is a normal wife, and mother, with her own son, and feeds
him meat. There is hope for these veg'es, They can be turned back to
the force, from the dark side, all someone has to do is slip a little
hidden meat into their diet, then those neurons that have not been fed,
start working again, next thing you know, they will be out with a
shotgun, duck hunting :-)


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:07:52 -0600, Rodney Long
wrote:

David H. Lipman wrote:
From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when
extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.



You can't reason with a vegetarian, they have lost the protein in their
diet, that allows their brains to function properly.

What's your excuse then?