PMWS pork entering food chain

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:16:04 GMT, "Alan Holmes" wrote:


"pearl" wrote in message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

That is, as we've seen, *SOME* PEOPLE EATING MEAT.
The rest (~50%) can die of starvation and poverty-related
diseases as far a jim and co are concerned. And as global
warming and the unsustainable abuse of natural resources
continues, fewer and fewer people will have enough to eat..

It's time to make some wise choices and do the right thing.





Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

It's for the potentially greater good...

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:15:37 GMT, "Alan Holmes" wrote:

Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

It's all for you Alan. Enjoy.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message ...
Why the bloody hell don't you restrict the posting to the group you read it
in, stop crossposting all this rubbish

Pot, kettle, black.
At least learn to snip the 'rubbish' even if you're forced to crosspost to get your protest heard..

"Pot, kettle, black.
At least learn to snip the 'rubbish' even if you're forced to crosspost to
get your protest heard..

It just adds to the junk in circulation

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


You are competing with the Chinese on the world market to feed
livestock.

so? At least I admit it and am not in denial

That's the first time you have admitted it.

it must have been in something that wasn't crossposted, because it is
something I've never made any bones about


At least I admit what is in my diet

Boy, are you dumb.


OK so name your protein sources

I'm merely pointing out that it isn't the Chinese problem, it is your
problem as you are the one living in the country without the land to
feed
or
fuel itself

Nonsense.

OK, so produce the figures to show that the UK can produce food and fuel
for
the current population

Forget your precious biofuels. There are sustainable alternatives.

dont tell me to forget them, I am merely pointing out what the world is
actually doing, I am not the one in denial, the EU has set down the
quantities


..
yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe

'The biggest disaster to have hit Zimbabwe is the IMF/WORLD BANK
sponsored structural adjustment program critically implemented at
the
beginning of 1990.

Yeah sure. And murdering farmers had no effect whatsoever

**** happens when people are angry enough.

or greedy

Indeed.

Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism
the
Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private
ownership
Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.

'The IMF has helped foster a severe depression in Russia

Russia in the 1990s has witnessed a peacetime economic contraction
of unprecedented scale.

Except the Russians weren't producing the food before the 1990s
and
now they are. Russia imported food ever since WW2 which has damn all
to
do
with the IMF

Of course they were producing food -- for *themselves*.

no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves

Nonsense. The UK imports feedstuffs for livestock, yet
most of the UK's arable land is used to produce feed..


what on earth has this got to do with the Russians unable to grow their own
food?


Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce
food

'The often heard comment (one I once accepted as fact) that
"there are too many people in the world, and overpopulation is
the cause of hunger", can be compared to the same myth that
expounded sixteenth-century England and revived continuously
since.

And there's these millions of English peasants all demanding
they
be
allowed to give up their nice jobs and houses in town and return to
subsistence agriculture,

No way

Do a survey. All those millions of English people in the urban slums
can't afford to pay the premium price of houses in the countryside.

that isn't what was said, where is evidence that these people want to
give
up their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture

'Many people want to live in the Countryside. Of those people
living in the countryside 89% would prefer to continue to do so.
If you asked people living in an inner city area if they would
prefer to continue doing so, only 21% would say so, with 51%
preferring the countryside.
..'
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/mi...r/bg060608.htm

now answer the question where is evidence that these people want to give up
their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture, not do people just dream
of a nice house in the country




then if you have these figures why are you in denial. Why are you
refusing
to admit that there isn't enough food to go round and that we are going
to
be the ones who are short?

Huh? In caps, as I'm running out of options to get through
to that dim bulb you call a brain, jim:

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.


good, you've finally grasped it

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.



look at the vegetarian society page, soya is a recommended protein
source
for vegetarians

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.


The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme

A big GM programme, eh.

'Almost all Argentine soya is GE,

Almost all traded soya is GM


All this worry, misery, trouble and strife... _for what_??

Well?

well what, or were you about to tell us about your diet, a subject you
seem
strangely coy about

Answer the question.

when you name your protein sources, or even give a list of the plants you
get food from


and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use

Too bad.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are doing it.

I'm conversing with you here, right now. You should leave.

why, I'm enjoying you struggle to cope with the idea that actually, the
world doesn't owe you a living
How are you going to convince the rest of the world to feed you

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.



Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,5031
Total cereals 17,936
..


duhh East Cumbria and Kendal are not the Lake District,

http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk/region-map.aspx

yes and you look at the map of the lake district national park you will see
that East Cumbria is east of the M6 and outside the park.

You also recommended I check up
"We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs
and fruit, and operate a local organic box scheme."
http://www.howbarroworganic.co.uk/


so I did
Howbarrow Farm is situated close to the village of Cartmel, on the Furness
Peninsula and in the Southern Lake District.


The farm has been organic since 1996 and is licensed with the Soil
Association.



We farm without the use of herbicides, pesticides, chemical fertilisers,
antibiotics, growth promoters or genetically modified organisms.

All our livestock is born and raised on the farm. It is slaughtered and
butchered in a local abattoir .

We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs and fruit, and
operate a local organic box scheme.

Our aim is to sell our meat and produce competitively priced. It is
available direct from the farm, or via our Home Delivery Service. Deliveries
can also be arranged nationwide (but we would prefer you to buy locally!!)

We also offer farmhouse B and B - with an organic breakfast, much of it
home-produced.

Howbarrow is now part of the Soil Association Open Farms Network.


Like the vast majority of Cumbrian organic farmers these people realise that
livestock is vital to keep fertility in the soil


Just ignoring the reality of what land is capable of just makes you
look
silly

You've just been demoted from fool to a silly fool.

yawn, no arguments, just insult, your diet is letting you down

That's rich coming from you, webster, and a lie.

so what are the constitutents of your diet?


yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the
Chinese
population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

It's the same sad self-serving story as elsewhere.

Hurray, she's finally got it

I 'had it' from the very beginning. Go look.

then you hid it damned well

I didn't hide it. Go look.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.


so how are you going to convince them to sell you food?

Why would I need to do that.

what are the consitutents of your diet?


And exactly what are you going to produce to ensure you can buy
food?

There's nothing to stop people producing their own food,
except for your business festering across most of the land.

yawn,
people in the UK are so keen on manual labour that most farm workers come
from Eastern Europe, and before you rant about poverty wages, go to the
defra statistics pages and discover farm incomes

Why don't you tell us all about it.

just did


Tough, sad for you but those of us feeding cattle aren't limited
by
what vega or any other loony site says.

Bullseye. You buy what is readily available, regardless.

of course, because I'm not a hypocrite, I admit I make a living out of
producing and selling food

So why do you claim not to buy soya?

because I haven't bought soya for over 30 years


How do you make a living?

Irrelevant.

so you daren't say what you do for a living and you won't say what the
ingredients of your diet are


I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food
policy
by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap,

Two thirds of it comes from Brazil.

so what, I don't use soya, don't need to

What changed a year ago to eliminate that need?

see above,30 years ago


but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources
of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

Clearly not enough. 389,740 tonnes of soya for the dairy sector
alone.

and if I produced milk this might be of relevence

You raise cattle.

yes, so what, the difference in diet between a beef animal and a high
yielding dairy cow is considerable. If you don't know that then you really
know nothing on bovine nutrition



so now find and paste an uptodate website which discusses the current
issues
not history

No need. The issues were explained very well.

but didn't contradict what I said


What you forget is that they will actually be eating a higher
proportion themselves, rather than exporting it to the west, so there
will
be less problems.

So you say.

well you haven't produced any evidence to the contary

Your say so doesn't count as evidence, jim.

no, its just you haven't been able to find anything that contradicted the
press story that I quoted


They have already started this, which is why they are cutting
soya
exports so we go round in a circle

And livestock in the 'developed' world will eat what?

Grass as usual, which is the majority feed of most beef and dairy cattle,
all that rape meal and maize gluten produced as a result of biofuel, the
traditional food industry wastes like citrus pulp from juice production,
Plenty to go at

So WHY is the UK importing soya from Brazil, etc?

vegetarians, pigs, poultry, some dairy rations,


You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistence peasant and the
world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.

It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.



Ah yes, exactly what is your diet

I already told you, blame shifter.

assume I forgot, let us have some details

Go back and look.

have done, weren't there, not in any of the messages that were crossposted
to this group



Sustainable farming includes crop rotations and not ploughing land
that
erodes

Very good.


which means grass and livestock grazing it

False.


'The negative impacts of soil erosion due to inappropriate land
management have become increasingly apparent in England and
Wales since the 1970s. A number of factors are responsible
for this increase, including animal and crop production on
inappropriate land, overstocking, bad timing of agricultural
practices, degradation of river banks by stock, and lack of
ground cover in winter months.


which backs up my comments on sustainable agriculture, crop production on
inappropriate land is as big a danger as livestock production on
inappropriate land, which is why some land has to be stocked with livestock


37.5m tonnes of petroleum products a
year. The most productive oil crop that can be grown in this country
is
rape. The average yield is 3-3.5 tonnes per hectare. One tonne of
rapeseed
produces 415kg of biodiesel. So every hectare of arable land could
provide
1.45 tonnes of transport fuel. To run our cars and busses and lorries
on
biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares. There are
5.7m
in
the UK. Even the EU's more modest target of 20% by 2020 would consume
almost
all our cropland".
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2004

That doesn't provide support for your above claim.

duhh
work out the numbers pearl, work out the numbers, do the sums

Support your claim, jim.

I did, that is why I posted the Monbiot piece, if you cannot understand it,
that is your problem


And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out
of
their
peoples mouths to give it to you

They absolutely shouldn't, but that's for you meat eaters to answer.





And of course we note that pearl refuses to answer questions on her
diet

I have and you've snipped it. That makes you a silly foolish liar,
jim.

well I cannot find it, so could you repeat it please

No.


Fair enough, pearl refuses to admit the details of her diet because she
knows we'd take the rip out of her because of the air miles and the fact
that most is imported from third world countries with water deficits.

Jim Webster

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

That is, as we've seen, *SOME* PEOPLE EATING MEAT.
The rest (~50%) can die of starvation and poverty-related
diseases as far a jim and co are concerned. And as global
warming and the unsustainable abuse of natural resources
continues, fewer and fewer people will have enough to eat..

It's time to make some wise choices and do the right thing.

don't tell me, tell the Chinese and the South Americans and the others who
grow the soya you vegetarians depend on

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


You are competing with the Chinese on the world market to feed
livestock.

so? At least I admit it and am not in denial

That's the first time you have admitted it.

it must have been in something that wasn't crossposted, because it is
something I've never made any bones about

You keep trying to foist the blame onto those who use
a fraction of the resources required to raise livestock.

At least I admit what is in my diet

Boy, are you dumb.


OK so name your protein sources

I have. You shouldn't have snipped it the first time.

I'm merely pointing out that it isn't the Chinese problem, it is your
problem as you are the one living in the country without the land to
feed
or
fuel itself

Nonsense.

OK, so produce the figures to show that the UK can produce food and fuel
for
the current population

Forget your precious biofuels. There are sustainable alternatives.

dont tell me to forget them, I am merely pointing out what the world is
actually doing, I am not the one in denial, the EU has set down the
quantities

Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

But the world is changing, as you keep pointing out.

..
yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe

'The biggest disaster to have hit Zimbabwe is the IMF/WORLD BANK
sponsored structural adjustment program critically implemented at
the
beginning of 1990.

Yeah sure. And murdering farmers had no effect whatsoever

**** happens when people are angry enough.

or greedy

Indeed.

Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism
the
Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private
ownership
Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.

'The IMF has helped foster a severe depression in Russia

Russia in the 1990s has witnessed a peacetime economic contraction
of unprecedented scale.

Except the Russians weren't producing the food before the 1990s
and
now they are. Russia imported food ever since WW2 which has damn all
to
do
with the IMF

Of course they were producing food -- for *themselves*.

no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves

Nonsense. The UK imports feedstuffs for livestock, yet
most of the UK's arable land is used to produce feed..

what on earth has this got to do with the Russians unable to grow their own
food?

"no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves" Ergo, you are unable to produce feed for livestock in the UK.

Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce
food

'The often heard comment (one I once accepted as fact) that
"there are too many people in the world, and overpopulation is
the cause of hunger", can be compared to the same myth that
expounded sixteenth-century England and revived continuously
since.

And there's these millions of English peasants all demanding
they
be
allowed to give up their nice jobs and houses in town and return to
subsistence agriculture,

No way

Do a survey. All those millions of English people in the urban slums
can't afford to pay the premium price of houses in the countryside.

that isn't what was said, where is evidence that these people want to
give
up their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture

'Many people want to live in the Countryside. Of those people
living in the countryside 89% would prefer to continue to do so.
If you asked people living in an inner city area if they would
prefer to continue doing so, only 21% would say so, with 51%
preferring the countryside.
..'
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/mi...r/bg060608.htm

now answer the question where is evidence that these people want to give up
their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture, not do people just dream
of a nice house in the country

Growing food would naturally be part of countryside living,
at least for the "working class". What else do you imagine?

then if you have these figures why are you in denial. Why are you
refusing
to admit that there isn't enough food to go round and that we are going
to
be the ones who are short?

Huh? In caps, as I'm running out of options to get through
to that dim bulb you call a brain, jim:

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.


good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
...
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

look at the vegetarian society page, soya is a recommended protein
source
for vegetarians

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
...
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme

A big GM programme, eh.

'Almost all Argentine soya is GE,

Almost all traded soya is GM


All this worry, misery, trouble and strife... _for what_??

Well?

well what, or were you about to tell us about your diet, a subject you
seem
strangely coy about

Answer the question.

when you name your protein sources, or even give a list of the plants you
get food from

Answer the question. Why are you determined to continue to eat meat?

and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use

Too bad.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are doing it.

I'm conversing with you here, right now. You should leave.

why, I'm enjoying you struggle to cope with the idea that actually, the
world doesn't owe you a living
How are you going to convince the rest of the world to feed you

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
...
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,5031
Total cereals 17,936
..


duhh East Cumbria and Kendal are not the Lake District,

http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk/region-map.aspx

yes and you look at the map of the lake district national park you will see
that East Cumbria is east of the M6 and outside the park.

'County's record wheat harvest

NEAR-PERFECT conditions brought record wheat yields to
Cumbria this year while crops elsewhere in the country were
devastated by the summer heatwave.

Cumbria and the north-west's wheat yield increased by an
average one tonne per hectare with highs of 9.3 tonnes per
hectare in some parts of the county.

The average yield for the north-west and Cumbria was 6.3
tonnes of wheat per hectare - almost 20 per cent more
than last year - according to figures released by Defra. It
compares to 5.3 tonnes per hectare brought in last year.

Guy Gagen, chief arable adviser with the NFU, said: "The
growing conditions must have been just about perfect in
the region."

http://www.businessgazette.co.uk/Far...spx?aid=427991

'Cumbria County Council: This would cover the whole of the
existing county council area, with a population of 487600. ...
http://www.boundarycommittee.org.uk/...r.cfm/news/280

'Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
...
Wheat 4,503
Total cereals 17,936
...
http://com5.uclan.ac.uk/carlisle/cre...griculture.pdf

At 5.8t = 0.58 kg (580 grams) cereals pp/pd. More than enough.

You also recommended I check up
"We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs
and fruit, and operate a local organic box scheme."
http://www.howbarroworganic.co.uk/


so I did
Howbarrow Farm is situated close to the village of Cartmel, on the Furness
Peninsula and in the Southern Lake District.


The farm has been organic since 1996 and is licensed with the Soil
Association.



We farm without the use of herbicides, pesticides, chemical fertilisers,
antibiotics, growth promoters or genetically modified organisms.

All our livestock is born and raised on the farm. It is slaughtered and
butchered in a local abattoir .

We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs and fruit, and
operate a local organic box scheme.

Our aim is to sell our meat and produce competitively priced. It is
available direct from the farm, or via our Home Delivery Service. Deliveries
can also be arranged nationwide (but we would prefer you to buy locally!!)

We also offer farmhouse B and B - with an organic breakfast, much of it
home-produced.

Howbarrow is now part of the Soil Association Open Farms Network.


Like the vast majority of Cumbrian organic farmers these people realise that
livestock is vital to keep fertility in the soil

Nonsense.

Just ignoring the reality of what land is capable of just makes you
look
silly

You've just been demoted from fool to a silly fool.

yawn, no arguments, just insult, your diet is letting you down

That's rich coming from you, webster, and a lie.

so what are the constitutents of your diet?

I've already told you.

yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the
Chinese
population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

It's the same sad self-serving story as elsewhere.

Hurray, she's finally got it

I 'had it' from the very beginning. Go look.

then you hid it damned well

I didn't hide it. Go look.

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
...
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

so how are you going to convince them to sell you food?

Why would I need to do that.

what are the consitutents of your diet?

A fraction of the plant matter required to feed livestock.

And exactly what are you going to produce to ensure you can buy
food?

There's nothing to stop people producing their own food,
except for your business festering across most of the land.

yawn,
people in the UK are so keen on manual labour that most farm workers come
from Eastern Europe, and before you rant about poverty wages, go to the
defra statistics pages and discover farm incomes

Why don't you tell us all about it.

just did

Poverty wages. What's your income, including grants, subsidies, etc.

Tough, sad for you but those of us feeding cattle aren't limited
by
what vega or any other loony site says.

Bullseye. You buy what is readily available, regardless.

of course, because I'm not a hypocrite, I admit I make a living out of
producing and selling food

So why do you claim not to buy soya?

because I haven't bought soya for over 30 years

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 January 2007 14:47

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.

We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What were you referring to, if not soya?

How do you make a living?

Irrelevant.

so you daren't say what you do for a living and you won't say what the
ingredients of your diet are

No, it is irrelevant, and I have already told you what I eat.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food
policy
by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap,

Two thirds of it comes from Brazil.

so what,

Displaced people, deforestation, species extinction, global warming.

I don't use soya, don't need to

What changed a year ago to eliminate that need?

see above,30 years ago

What were you buying from Brazil a year ago?

but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources
of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

Clearly not enough. 389,740 tonnes of soya for the dairy sector
alone.

and if I produced milk this might be of relevence

You raise cattle.

yes, so what, the difference in diet between a beef animal and a high
yielding dairy cow is considerable. If you don't know that then you really
know nothing on bovine nutrition

'Finishing cattle
Bull beef and finishing steers, irrespective of silage quality,
require supplements with high quality protein eg soya bean
or rapeseed meal.'
http://www.kt.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/FACT%...files/kt49.pdf

so now find and paste an uptodate website which discusses the current
issues
not history

No need. The issues were explained very well.

but didn't contradict what I said

It certainly did, in more ways than one.

What you forget is that they will actually be eating a higher
proportion themselves, rather than exporting it to the west, so there
will
be less problems.

So you say.

well you haven't produced any evidence to the contary

Your say so doesn't count as evidence, jim.

no, its just you haven't been able to find anything that contradicted the
press story that I quoted

$100 million isn't going to go far in a population of nearly 38 million.

They have already started this, which is why they are cutting
soya
exports so we go round in a circle

And livestock in the 'developed' world will eat what?

Grass as usual, which is the majority feed of most beef and dairy cattle,
all that rape meal and maize gluten produced as a result of biofuel, the
traditional food industry wastes like citrus pulp from juice production,
Plenty to go at

So WHY is the UK importing soya from Brazil, etc?

vegetarians, pigs, poultry, some dairy rations,

You're a liar.

You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistence peasant and the
world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.

It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.



Ah yes, exactly what is your diet

I already told you, blame shifter.

assume I forgot, let us have some details

Go back and look.

have done, weren't there, not in any of the messages that were crossposted
to this group

Yes it is, in a message you replied to. You snipped it.

Sustainable farming includes crop rotations and not ploughing land
that
erodes

Very good.


which means grass and livestock grazing it

False.


'The negative impacts of soil erosion due to inappropriate land
management have become increasingly apparent in England and
Wales since the 1970s. A number of factors are responsible
for this increase, including animal and crop production on
inappropriate land, overstocking, bad timing of agricultural
practices, degradation of river banks by stock, and lack of
ground cover in winter months.


which backs up my comments on sustainable agriculture, crop production on
inappropriate land is as big a danger as livestock production on
inappropriate land, which is why some land has to be stocked with livestock

No, that makes no sense.

37.5m tonnes of petroleum products a
year. The most productive oil crop that can be grown in this country
is
rape. The average yield is 3-3.5 tonnes per hectare. One tonne of
rapeseed
produces 415kg of biodiesel. So every hectare of arable land could
provide
1.45 tonnes of transport fuel. To run our cars and busses and lorries
on
biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares. There are
5.7m
in
the UK. Even the EU's more modest target of 20% by 2020 would consume
almost
all our cropland".
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2004

That doesn't provide support for your above claim.

duhh
work out the numbers pearl, work out the numbers, do the sums

Support your claim, jim.

I did, that is why I posted the Monbiot piece, if you cannot understand it,
that is your problem

You didn't.

And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out
of
their
peoples mouths to give it to you

They absolutely shouldn't, but that's for you meat eaters to answer.





And of course we note that pearl refuses to answer questions on her
diet

I have and you've snipped it. That makes you a silly foolish liar,
jim.

well I cannot find it, so could you repeat it please

No.


Fair enough, pearl refuses to admit the details of her diet because she
knows we'd take the rip out of her because of the air miles and the fact
that most is imported from third world countries with water deficits.

You've some cheek, blame shifter.

You can't twist and wiggle your way off the hook, try as you might,
and the more you try, the more foolish and ignorant you look, jim.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"pearl" wrote in message
...

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

That is, as we've seen, *SOME* PEOPLE EATING MEAT.
The rest (~50%) can die of starvation and poverty-related
diseases as far a jim and co are concerned. And as global
warming and the unsustainable abuse of natural resources
continues, fewer and fewer people will have enough to eat..

It's time to make some wise choices and do the right thing.

don't tell me, tell the Chinese and the South Americans and the others who
grow the soya you vegetarians depend on

I'm telling you and others who require more than your fair share
in the form of grain, land, water, energy for feed for livestock.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:44:32 -0000, "pearl"
wrote:

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


You are competing with the Chinese on the world market to feed
livestock.

so? At least I admit it and am not in denial

That's the first time you have admitted it.

it must have been in something that wasn't crossposted, because it is
something I've never made any bones about

You keep trying to foist the blame onto those who use
a fraction of the resources required to raise livestock.

At least I admit what is in my diet

Boy, are you dumb.


OK so name your protein sources

I have. You shouldn't have snipped it the first time.

I'm merely pointing out that it isn't the Chinese problem, it is your
problem as you are the one living in the country without the land to
feed
or
fuel itself

Nonsense.

OK, so produce the figures to show that the UK can produce food and fuel
for
the current population

Forget your precious biofuels. There are sustainable alternatives.

dont tell me to forget them, I am merely pointing out what the world is
actually doing, I am not the one in denial, the EU has set down the
quantities

Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

But the world is changing, as you keep pointing out.

..
yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe

'The biggest disaster to have hit Zimbabwe is the IMF/WORLD BANK
sponsored structural adjustment program critically implemented at
the
beginning of 1990.

Yeah sure. And murdering farmers had no effect whatsoever

**** happens when people are angry enough.

or greedy

Indeed.

Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism
the
Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private
ownership
Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.

'The IMF has helped foster a severe depression in Russia

Russia in the 1990s has witnessed a peacetime economic contraction
of unprecedented scale.

Except the Russians weren't producing the food before the 1990s
and
now they are. Russia imported food ever since WW2 which has damn all
to
do
with the IMF

Of course they were producing food -- for *themselves*.

no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves

Nonsense. The UK imports feedstuffs for livestock, yet
most of the UK's arable land is used to produce feed..

what on earth has this got to do with the Russians unable to grow their own
food?

"no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves" Ergo, you are unable to produce feed for livestock in the UK.

Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce
food

'The often heard comment (one I once accepted as fact) that
"there are too many people in the world, and overpopulation is
the cause of hunger", can be compared to the same myth that
expounded sixteenth-century England and revived continuously
since.

And there's these millions of English peasants all demanding
they
be
allowed to give up their nice jobs and houses in town and return to
subsistence agriculture,

No way

Do a survey. All those millions of English people in the urban slums
can't afford to pay the premium price of houses in the countryside.

that isn't what was said, where is evidence that these people want to
give
up their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture

'Many people want to live in the Countryside. Of those people
living in the countryside 89% would prefer to continue to do so.
If you asked people living in an inner city area if they would
prefer to continue doing so, only 21% would say so, with 51%
preferring the countryside.
..'
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/mi...r/bg060608.htm

now answer the question where is evidence that these people want to give up
their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture, not do people just dream
of a nice house in the country

Growing food would naturally be part of countryside living,
at least for the "working class". What else do you imagine?

then if you have these figures why are you in denial. Why are you
refusing
to admit that there isn't enough food to go round and that we are going
to
be the ones who are short?

Huh? In caps, as I'm running out of options to get through
to that dim bulb you call a brain, jim:

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.


good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

look at the vegetarian society page, soya is a recommended protein
source
for vegetarians

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme

A big GM programme, eh.

'Almost all Argentine soya is GE,

Almost all traded soya is GM


All this worry, misery, trouble and strife... _for what_??

Well?

well what, or were you about to tell us about your diet, a subject you
seem
strangely coy about

Answer the question.

when you name your protein sources, or even give a list of the plants you
get food from

Answer the question. Why are you determined to continue to eat meat?

and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use

Too bad.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are doing it.

I'm conversing with you here, right now. You should leave.

why, I'm enjoying you struggle to cope with the idea that actually, the
world doesn't owe you a living
How are you going to convince the rest of the world to feed you

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,5031
Total cereals 17,936
..


duhh East Cumbria and Kendal are not the Lake District,

http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk/region-map.aspx

yes and you look at the map of the lake district national park you will see
that East Cumbria is east of the M6 and outside the park.

'County's record wheat harvest

NEAR-PERFECT conditions brought record wheat yields to
Cumbria this year while crops elsewhere in the country were
devastated by the summer heatwave.

Cumbria and the north-west's wheat yield increased by an
average one tonne per hectare with highs of 9.3 tonnes per
hectare in some parts of the county.

The average yield for the north-west and Cumbria was 6.3
tonnes of wheat per hectare - almost 20 per cent more
than last year - according to figures released by Defra. It
compares to 5.3 tonnes per hectare brought in last year.

Guy Gagen, chief arable adviser with the NFU, said: "The
growing conditions must have been just about perfect in
the region."

http://www.businessgazette.co.uk/Far...spx?aid=427991

'Cumbria County Council: This would cover the whole of the
existing county council area, with a population of 487600. ...
http://www.boundarycommittee.org.uk/...r.cfm/news/280

'Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,503
Total cereals 17,936
..
http://com5.uclan.ac.uk/carlisle/cre...griculture.pdf

At 5.8t = 0.58 kg (580 grams) cereals pp/pd. More than enough.

You also recommended I check up
"We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs
and fruit, and operate a local organic box scheme."
http://www.howbarroworganic.co.uk/


so I did
Howbarrow Farm is situated close to the village of Cartmel, on the Furness
Peninsula and in the Southern Lake District.


The farm has been organic since 1996 and is licensed with the Soil
Association.



We farm without the use of herbicides, pesticides, chemical fertilisers,
antibiotics, growth promoters or genetically modified organisms.

All our livestock is born and raised on the farm. It is slaughtered and
butchered in a local abattoir .

We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs and fruit, and
operate a local organic box scheme.

Our aim is to sell our meat and produce competitively priced. It is
available direct from the farm, or via our Home Delivery Service. Deliveries
can also be arranged nationwide (but we would prefer you to buy locally!!)

We also offer farmhouse B and B - with an organic breakfast, much of it
home-produced.

Howbarrow is now part of the Soil Association Open Farms Network.


Like the vast majority of Cumbrian organic farmers these people realise that
livestock is vital to keep fertility in the soil

Nonsense.

Just ignoring the reality of what land is capable of just makes you
look
silly

You've just been demoted from fool to a silly fool.

yawn, no arguments, just insult, your diet is letting you down

That's rich coming from you, webster, and a lie.

so what are the constitutents of your diet?

I've already told you.

yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the
Chinese
population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

It's the same sad self-serving story as elsewhere.

Hurray, she's finally got it

I 'had it' from the very beginning. Go look.

then you hid it damned well

I didn't hide it. Go look.

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

so how are you going to convince them to sell you food?

Why would I need to do that.

what are the consitutents of your diet?

A fraction of the plant matter required to feed livestock.

And exactly what are you going to produce to ensure you can buy
food?

There's nothing to stop people producing their own food,
except for your business festering across most of the land.

yawn,
people in the UK are so keen on manual labour that most farm workers come
from Eastern Europe, and before you rant about poverty wages, go to the
defra statistics pages and discover farm incomes

Why don't you tell us all about it.

just did

Poverty wages. What's your income, including grants, subsidies, etc.

Tough, sad for you but those of us feeding cattle aren't limited
by
what vega or any other loony site says.

Bullseye. You buy what is readily available, regardless.

of course, because I'm not a hypocrite, I admit I make a living out of
producing and selling food

So why do you claim not to buy soya?

because I haven't bought soya for over 30 years

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 January 2007 14:47

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.

We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What were you referring to, if not soya?

How do you make a living?

Irrelevant.

so you daren't say what you do for a living and you won't say what the
ingredients of your diet are

No, it is irrelevant, and I have already told you what I eat.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food
policy
by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap,

Two thirds of it comes from Brazil.

so what,

Displaced people, deforestation, species extinction, global warming.

I don't use soya, don't need to

What changed a year ago to eliminate that need?

see above,30 years ago

What were you buying from Brazil a year ago?

but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources
of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

Clearly not enough. 389,740 tonnes of soya for the dairy sector
alone.

and if I produced milk this might be of relevence

You raise cattle.

yes, so what, the difference in diet between a beef animal and a high
yielding dairy cow is considerable. If you don't know that then you really
know nothing on bovine nutrition

'Finishing cattle
Bull beef and finishing steers, irrespective of silage quality,
require supplements with high quality protein eg soya bean
or rapeseed meal.'
http://www.kt.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/FACT%...files/kt49.pdf

so now find and paste an uptodate website which discusses the current
issues
not history

No need. The issues were explained very well.

but didn't contradict what I said

It certainly did, in more ways than one.

What you forget is that they will actually be eating a higher
proportion themselves, rather than exporting it to the west, so there
will
be less problems.

So you say.

well you haven't produced any evidence to the contary

Your say so doesn't count as evidence, jim.

no, its just you haven't been able to find anything that contradicted the
press story that I quoted

$100 million isn't going to go far in a population of nearly 38 million.

They have already started this, which is why they are cutting
soya
exports so we go round in a circle

And livestock in the 'developed' world will eat what?

Grass as usual, which is the majority feed of most beef and dairy cattle,
all that rape meal and maize gluten produced as a result of biofuel, the
traditional food industry wastes like citrus pulp from juice production,
Plenty to go at

So WHY is the UK importing soya from Brazil, etc?

vegetarians, pigs, poultry, some dairy rations,

You're a liar.

You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistence peasant and the
world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.

It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.



Ah yes, exactly what is your diet

I already told you, blame shifter.

assume I forgot, let us have some details

Go back and look.

have done, weren't there, not in any of the messages that were crossposted
to this group

Yes it is, in a message you replied to. You snipped it.

Sustainable farming includes crop rotations and not ploughing land
that
erodes

Very good.


which means grass and livestock grazing it

False.


'The negative impacts of soil erosion due to inappropriate land
management have become increasingly apparent in England and
Wales since the 1970s. A number of factors are responsible
for this increase, including animal and crop production on
inappropriate land, overstocking, bad timing of agricultural
practices, degradation of river banks by stock, and lack of
ground cover in winter months.


which backs up my comments on sustainable agriculture, crop production on
inappropriate land is as big a danger as livestock production on
inappropriate land, which is why some land has to be stocked with livestock

No, that makes no sense.

37.5m tonnes of petroleum products a
year. The most productive oil crop that can be grown in this country
is
rape. The average yield is 3-3.5 tonnes per hectare. One tonne of
rapeseed
produces 415kg of biodiesel. So every hectare of arable land could
provide
1.45 tonnes of transport fuel. To run our cars and busses and lorries
on
biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares. There are
5.7m
in
the UK. Even the EU's more modest target of 20% by 2020 would consume
almost
all our cropland".
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2004

That doesn't provide support for your above claim.

duhh
work out the numbers pearl, work out the numbers, do the sums

Support your claim, jim.

I did, that is why I posted the Monbiot piece, if you cannot understand it,
that is your problem

You didn't.

And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out
of
their
peoples mouths to give it to you

They absolutely shouldn't, but that's for you meat eaters to answer.





And of course we note that pearl refuses to answer questions on her
diet

I have and you've snipped it. That makes you a silly foolish liar,
jim.

well I cannot find it, so could you repeat it please

No.


Fair enough, pearl refuses to admit the details of her diet because she
knows we'd take the rip out of her because of the air miles and the fact
that most is imported from third world countries with water deficits.

You've some cheek, blame shifter.

You can't twist and wiggle your way off the hook, try as you might,
and the more you try, the more foolish and ignorant you look, jim.

That's our dimbo. He cares little for himself or his own family, let
alone the global community.

He obviously doesn't play chess, you checkmate him in so few
moves..lol

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


You are competing with the Chinese on the world market to feed
livestock.

so? At least I admit it and am not in denial

That's the first time you have admitted it.

it must have been in something that wasn't crossposted, because it is
something I've never made any bones about

You keep trying to foist the blame onto those who use
a fraction of the resources required to raise livestock.

At least I admit what is in my diet

Boy, are you dumb.


OK so name your protein sources

I have. You shouldn't have snipped it the first time.

I'm merely pointing out that it isn't the Chinese problem, it is
your
problem as you are the one living in the country without the land
to
feed
or
fuel itself

Nonsense.

OK, so produce the figures to show that the UK can produce food and
fuel
for
the current population

Forget your precious biofuels. There are sustainable alternatives.

dont tell me to forget them, I am merely pointing out what the world is
actually doing, I am not the one in denial, the EU has set down the
quantities

Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

But the world is changing, as you keep pointing out.

..
yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in
Zimbabwe

'The biggest disaster to have hit Zimbabwe is the IMF/WORLD BANK
sponsored structural adjustment program critically implemented at
the
beginning of 1990.

Yeah sure. And murdering farmers had no effect whatsoever

**** happens when people are angry enough.

or greedy

Indeed.

Indeed let the government run the land. After all under
Socialism
the
Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private
ownership
Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.

'The IMF has helped foster a severe depression in Russia

Russia in the 1990s has witnessed a peacetime economic
contraction
of unprecedented scale.

Except the Russians weren't producing the food before the
1990s
and
now they are. Russia imported food ever since WW2 which has damn
all
to
do
with the IMF

Of course they were producing food -- for *themselves*.

no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food
for
themselves

Nonsense. The UK imports feedstuffs for livestock, yet
most of the UK's arable land is used to produce feed..

what on earth has this got to do with the Russians unable to grow their
own
food?

"no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves" Ergo, you are unable to produce feed for livestock in the UK.

Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce
food

'The often heard comment (one I once accepted as fact) that
"there are too many people in the world, and overpopulation is
the cause of hunger", can be compared to the same myth that
expounded sixteenth-century England and revived continuously
since.

And there's these millions of English peasants all demanding
they
be
allowed to give up their nice jobs and houses in town and return to
subsistence agriculture,

No way

Do a survey. All those millions of English people in the urban
slums
can't afford to pay the premium price of houses in the countryside.

that isn't what was said, where is evidence that these people want to
give
up their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture

'Many people want to live in the Countryside. Of those people
living in the countryside 89% would prefer to continue to do so.
If you asked people living in an inner city area if they would
prefer to continue doing so, only 21% would say so, with 51%
preferring the countryside.
..'
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/mi...r/bg060608.htm

now answer the question where is evidence that these people want to give
up
their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture, not do people just
dream
of a nice house in the country

Growing food would naturally be part of countryside living,
at least for the "working class". What else do you imagine?

then if you have these figures why are you in denial. Why are you
refusing
to admit that there isn't enough food to go round and that we are
going
to
be the ones who are short?

Huh? In caps, as I'm running out of options to get through
to that dim bulb you call a brain, jim:

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.


good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all
these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

look at the vegetarian society page, soya is a recommended protein
source
for vegetarians

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all
these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme

A big GM programme, eh.

'Almost all Argentine soya is GE,

Almost all traded soya is GM


All this worry, misery, trouble and strife... _for what_??

Well?

well what, or were you about to tell us about your diet, a subject you
seem
strangely coy about

Answer the question.

when you name your protein sources, or even give a list of the plants you
get food from

Answer the question. Why are you determined to continue to eat meat?

and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use

Too bad.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are doing it.

I'm conversing with you here, right now. You should leave.

why, I'm enjoying you struggle to cope with the idea that actually,
the
world doesn't owe you a living
How are you going to convince the rest of the world to feed you

THERE _IS_ ENOUGH FOOD TO GO ROUND - TO FEED
PEOPLE DIRECTLY; THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED
LIVESTOCK TOO. IT IS EITHER PEOPLE, WILDLIFE,
AND THE ENVIRONMENT, OR, PEOPLE EATING MEAT.

good, you've finally grasped it

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all
these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,5031
Total cereals 17,936
..


duhh East Cumbria and Kendal are not the Lake District,

http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk/region-map.aspx

yes and you look at the map of the lake district national park you will
see
that East Cumbria is east of the M6 and outside the park.

'County's record wheat harvest

NEAR-PERFECT conditions brought record wheat yields to
Cumbria this year while crops elsewhere in the country were
devastated by the summer heatwave.

Cumbria and the north-west's wheat yield increased by an
average one tonne per hectare with highs of 9.3 tonnes per
hectare in some parts of the county.

The average yield for the north-west and Cumbria was 6.3
tonnes of wheat per hectare - almost 20 per cent more
than last year - according to figures released by Defra. It
compares to 5.3 tonnes per hectare brought in last year.

Guy Gagen, chief arable adviser with the NFU, said: "The
growing conditions must have been just about perfect in
the region."

http://www.businessgazette.co.uk/Far...spx?aid=427991

'Cumbria County Council: This would cover the whole of the
existing county council area, with a population of 487600. ...
http://www.boundarycommittee.org.uk/...r.cfm/news/280

'Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,503
Total cereals 17,936
..
http://com5.uclan.ac.uk/carlisle/cre...griculture.pdf

At 5.8t = 0.58 kg (580 grams) cereals pp/pd. More than enough.

You also recommended I check up
"We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs
and fruit, and operate a local organic box scheme."
http://www.howbarroworganic.co.uk/


so I did
Howbarrow Farm is situated close to the village of Cartmel, on the
Furness
Peninsula and in the Southern Lake District.


The farm has been organic since 1996 and is licensed with the Soil
Association.



We farm without the use of herbicides, pesticides, chemical fertilisers,
antibiotics, growth promoters or genetically modified organisms.

All our livestock is born and raised on the farm. It is slaughtered and
butchered in a local abattoir .

We grow an extensive range of organic vegetables, herbs and fruit, and
operate a local organic box scheme.

Our aim is to sell our meat and produce competitively priced. It is
available direct from the farm, or via our Home Delivery Service.
Deliveries
can also be arranged nationwide (but we would prefer you to buy
locally!!)

We also offer farmhouse B and B - with an organic breakfast, much of it
home-produced.

Howbarrow is now part of the Soil Association Open Farms Network.


Like the vast majority of Cumbrian organic farmers these people realise
that
livestock is vital to keep fertility in the soil

Nonsense.

Just ignoring the reality of what land is capable of just makes you
look
silly

You've just been demoted from fool to a silly fool.

yawn, no arguments, just insult, your diet is letting you down

That's rich coming from you, webster, and a lie.

so what are the constitutents of your diet?

I've already told you.

yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the
Chinese
population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

It's the same sad self-serving story as elsewhere.

Hurray, she's finally got it

I 'had it' from the very beginning. Go look.

then you hid it damned well

I didn't hide it. Go look.

So you still haven't, or are pretending that you haven't.

So now answer the question, where is your food coming from because all
these
people are determined to continue to eat meat and you are in the
overpopulated country that cannot supply all its own food and energy.

False. Where is your feed coming from, more to the point.

'In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food
chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people.
An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre
used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and
lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of
soya, 30 times more.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough
plant food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If
people used land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather
than feeding crops to animals, then there would be enough
to provide everyone with the average of 2360 Kcal (calories)
needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from
animal protein then the planet could sustain only three billion
people (8). In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate
the average North American diet, we would only be able to
feed half the world's population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

so how are you going to convince them to sell you food?

Why would I need to do that.

what are the consitutents of your diet?

A fraction of the plant matter required to feed livestock.

And exactly what are you going to produce to ensure you can
buy
food?

There's nothing to stop people producing their own food,
except for your business festering across most of the land.

yawn,
people in the UK are so keen on manual labour that most farm workers
come
from Eastern Europe, and before you rant about poverty wages, go to
the
defra statistics pages and discover farm incomes

Why don't you tell us all about it.

just did

Poverty wages. What's your income, including grants, subsidies, etc.

Tough, sad for you but those of us feeding cattle aren't
limited
by
what vega or any other loony site says.

Bullseye. You buy what is readily available, regardless.

of course, because I'm not a hypocrite, I admit I make a living out of
producing and selling food

So why do you claim not to buy soya?

because I haven't bought soya for over 30 years

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 January 2007 14:47

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.

We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What were you referring to, if not soya?

How do you make a living?

Irrelevant.

so you daren't say what you do for a living and you won't say what the
ingredients of your diet are

No, it is irrelevant, and I have already told you what I eat.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food
policy
by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap,

Two thirds of it comes from Brazil.

so what,

Displaced people, deforestation, species extinction, global warming.

I don't use soya, don't need to

What changed a year ago to eliminate that need?

see above,30 years ago

What were you buying from Brazil a year ago?

but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important
sources
of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

Clearly not enough. 389,740 tonnes of soya for the dairy sector
alone.

and if I produced milk this might be of relevence

You raise cattle.

yes, so what, the difference in diet between a beef animal and a high
yielding dairy cow is considerable. If you don't know that then you
really
know nothing on bovine nutrition

'Finishing cattle
Bull beef and finishing steers, irrespective of silage quality,
require supplements with high quality protein eg soya bean
or rapeseed meal.'
http://www.kt.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/FACT%...files/kt49.pdf

so now find and paste an uptodate website which discusses the current
issues
not history

No need. The issues were explained very well.

but didn't contradict what I said

It certainly did, in more ways than one.

What you forget is that they will actually be eating a higher
proportion themselves, rather than exporting it to the west, so
there
will
be less problems.

So you say.

well you haven't produced any evidence to the contary

Your say so doesn't count as evidence, jim.

no, its just you haven't been able to find anything that contradicted the
press story that I quoted

$100 million isn't going to go far in a population of nearly 38 million.

They have already started this, which is why they are cutting
soya
exports so we go round in a circle

And livestock in the 'developed' world will eat what?

Grass as usual, which is the majority feed of most beef and dairy
cattle,
all that rape meal and maize gluten produced as a result of biofuel,
the
traditional food industry wastes like citrus pulp from juice
production,
Plenty to go at

So WHY is the UK importing soya from Brazil, etc?

vegetarians, pigs, poultry, some dairy rations,

You're a liar.

You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistence peasant and
the
world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.

It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.



Ah yes, exactly what is your diet

I already told you, blame shifter.

assume I forgot, let us have some details

Go back and look.

have done, weren't there, not in any of the messages that were
crossposted
to this group

Yes it is, in a message you replied to. You snipped it.

Sustainable farming includes crop rotations and not ploughing land
that
erodes

Very good.


which means grass and livestock grazing it

False.


'The negative impacts of soil erosion due to inappropriate land
management have become increasingly apparent in England and
Wales since the 1970s. A number of factors are responsible
for this increase, including animal and crop production on
inappropriate land, overstocking, bad timing of agricultural
practices, degradation of river banks by stock, and lack of
ground cover in winter months.


which backs up my comments on sustainable agriculture, crop production on
inappropriate land is as big a danger as livestock production on
inappropriate land, which is why some land has to be stocked with
livestock

No, that makes no sense.

37.5m tonnes of petroleum products a
year. The most productive oil crop that can be grown in this
country
is
rape. The average yield is 3-3.5 tonnes per hectare. One tonne of
rapeseed
produces 415kg of biodiesel. So every hectare of arable land could
provide
1.45 tonnes of transport fuel. To run our cars and busses and
lorries
on
biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares. There are
5.7m
in
the UK. Even the EU's more modest target of 20% by 2020 would
consume
almost
all our cropland".
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2004

That doesn't provide support for your above claim.

duhh
work out the numbers pearl, work out the numbers, do the sums

Support your claim, jim.

I did, that is why I posted the Monbiot piece, if you cannot understand
it,
that is your problem

You didn't.

And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food
out
of
their
peoples mouths to give it to you

They absolutely shouldn't, but that's for you meat eaters to
answer.





And of course we note that pearl refuses to answer questions on her
diet

I have and you've snipped it. That makes you a silly foolish liar,
jim.

well I cannot find it, so could you repeat it please

No.


Fair enough, pearl refuses to admit the details of her diet because she
knows we'd take the rip out of her because of the air miles and the fact
that most is imported from third world countries with water deficits.

You've some cheek, blame shifter.

You can't twist and wiggle your way off the hook, try as you might,
and the more you try, the more foolish and ignorant you look, jim.





Please reply to the newsgroup you have read this rubbish in, do not pollute
other newsgroups.